Chalo among the fashion victims and other impressionables

[Luke]

<big snip>

POTM!

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<c625901a-3613-4bd6-8782-338a5348e3c5@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Jan 25, 8:04 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> > On Jan 25, 12:20 pm, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Andre Jute
> > > Zero patience for Monday morning quarterbacks
> >
> > And I have no patience for deceptive advertisers.  Nor for trolls.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
>
> Hey, Frank, I told you several times your assumptions were wrong. If
> you can't take a broad hint to shut up until the facts are in, don't
> blame me when you look like a fool for shooting off your mouth. The
> guys with their brains in gear who patiently asked the right questions
> didn't make fools of themselves like you and Fogel did. It is not my
> problem if you two are Darwinian accidents looking for a place to
> happen. That premature ejaculator Fogel maliciously rushed in to call
> me a liar without giving me a chance to answer questions, and is now
> reduced to ludicrously irrational claims that anything i say in future
> will be a lie. Both of you were deliberately deaf to explicit
> warnings. You did it to yourselves.

Keep digging. Liars are those most likely to go
incandescent when their statements are questioned.

--
Michael Press

 

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:59:55 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote:
>
> >On Jan 26, 12:25 pm, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On 2008-01-26, Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> > Mr. Jute's post was a troll in that it did attempt to lead people down
> >> > the wrong path. However, Mr. Fogel has some history on this newsgroup of
> >> > coming to the wrong conclusions, but never admitting his error.
> >>
> >> What makes you so sure Mr Jute isn't lying? I thought Mr Fogel made a
> >> good case.
> >
> >Agreed. We're dealing with a troll who openly brags about misleading
> >and deceiving people, while simultaneously posting a house-of-cards
> >tower of improbabilities.
> >
> >It's not impossible he found a wonderfully smooth, yet steep and
> >isolated farm road in rural Ireland. It's not impossible he knows
> >someone with a truck. It's not impossible he acquired the proper
> >hardware to hold the rear doors open just so, and fixed plywood to the
> >lower tail of the truck, and worked out a towing scheme, and
> >successfully got towed up to high speed, and successfully released on
> >the steepest part of the short hill, and had the driver synchronize
> >their accelerating speeds exactly to keep him within the stable draft,
> >and briefly hit 100 kph, then quickly braked to a safe stop without
> >being crashed by intense buffeting.
> >
> >And it's not impossible he did this risky, complicated trick (in
> >street clothes!) just in case he might someday get a chance to brag
> >about it on rec.bicycles.tech, but never bothered to publicize it
> >elsewhere.
> >
> >On the other hand, it's also possible he's a lying troll.
> >
> >Personally, I find Bill Baka to be much more believable, and much more
> >personable.
> >
> >- Frank Krygowski
>
> Dear Frank,
>
> Sometimes when you flip over a rock, you find amazing things:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.pro/msg/192e933593bef951
>
> First, Andrew McCoy/Andre Jute claims that he threw a log thirty paces
> to hit a tree and detonate a cigar tube full of nitrogylcerin, stuffed
> into a hole drilled into the tree's four-foot thick trunk.
>
> Few people claim to be able to throw logs 90 feet. A rock would have
> been more plausible, but it would have been less impressive.
>
> Then Jute / McCoy claims that the explosion from within the tree blew
> him thirty paces away--
>
> And fifteen feet _up_ into a tree.
>
> Few people claim to survive explosions 90 feet away that hurl them
> another 90 feet horizontally and 15 feet vertically. (Even fewer
> people make such claims for a mere cigar tube of nitroglycerin
> surrounded by two feet of solid wood--for that kind of effect, most of
> us would make up a 50-pound bomb dropped by the Air Force.)
>
> But presumably it will turn out that all distances were measured with
> a "certified calibrated government approved" pedometer.
>
> And the strange upward trajectory of McCoy / Jute will be explained by
> the fact that he merely forgot to mention that he rode a cannonball to
> the moon--
>
> Er, Baron von Munchausen rode a cannonball fifteen feet _up_ into the
> tree.
>
> The nicest touch in the story is the "black tree snake" that was
> spectating in the tree and refused to bite our hero.
>
> Anyone who doubts the snake will be informed that the late Steve Irwin
> certified the serpent on a "calibrated government approved"
> herpetometer.
>
> My fellow travellers (communists who don't get along well with my crew
> of right-wing McCarthy-ites) will be pleased to learn that I've added
> "certified calibrated government-approved" South African assassins and
> a squad of South American Nazis to our ranks.
>
> Really.
>
> No fooling.
>
> At least, that's what Andre Jute / Andrew McCoy says:
>
> "The apartheid security police, BOSS, twice sent assassins after
> novelist Andrew McCoy on publication of 'Atrocity Week' and 'The
> Insurrectionist'. South American Nazis hunted him for 'Cain's
> Courage'."
> http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/THE%20WRITER'S%20HOUSE.html
>
> Since tree snakes have failed my communist/right-wing/apartheid/nazi
> coalition, I plan to terminate Jute / McCoy with mild prejudice next
> spring by mailing one of these creatures to Ireland with instructions
> to hunt him down:
> http://i13.tinypic.com/53sdipy.jpg
>
> The "certified calibrated government-approved" ruler next to my
> cold-blooded assassin is 18 feet long, so Jute / McCoy will have no
> chance at all.
>
> Oops! Make that 18 inches. But it can tear a bullfrog to pieces with
> those claws, so he'd better hope that it glides "away with only a
> single disdainful look over its shoulder" when he finds it in his bath
> tub.
>
> Yikes! A nut who claims on his web site that the South African
> government is sending assassins after them and that South American
> Nazis are hunting him! Luckily, he blows himself up and hides in
> trees.
>
> I thought he was a blow-hard from the get-go, but I had no idea that
> he was so flamboyant.

But he's sooo cuuute. Can I keep himmmm. <whine>

--
Michael Press

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ben C? wrote:
> > On 2008-01-26, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> > wrote: [...]
> >> Mr. Jute's post was a troll in that it did attempt to lead people
> >> down the wrong path. However, Mr. Fogel has some history on this
> >> newsgroup of coming to the wrong conclusions, but never admitting
> >> his error.
> >
> > What makes you so sure Mr Jute isn't lying? I thought Mr Fogel made
> > a good case.
> >
> I do not know if Mr. Jute is lying or not. Neither does Mr. Fogel.

There can be little doubt that Mr. Jute is lying. The overwhelming
whiff of troll has been evident for quite some time.

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Jan 25, 2:27 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> [email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:> On Jan 24, 7:25 am,
> >> Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> Yes, I was amazed that Fogel should start calling me a liar
> >>>> before I could even answer.
> >>> Hmm. I didn't realize he'd called you a liar. What I see
> >>> instead is this rather mild statement: "I'd love to be convinced
> >>> that Andre has actually gone well over 100 kmh down some private
> >>> farm road on that bike, but experience leads me to expect
> >>> otherwise."...
> >> "Dear Carl's" meaning was perfectly clear.
> >
> > And repeated several times. No one except the blind and deaf or
> > unthinkingly partisan could mistake Carl Fogel's intention to call
> > me a liar before I even had a chance to answer Clive George's
> > question..
> >
> > I deliberately delayed giving a full explanation, and several times
> > gave Fogel the tip that he made wrong assumptions, to give him time
> > to apologize. He didn't.
> >
> Do not hold your breath waiting for an apology or retraction from Mr.
> Fogel - this is at least the third time he has posted false
> accusations of lying or rec.bicycles.tech, and has never recanted on
> the first two.

Tom, you seem to be overlooking the obvious- which is that "Andre Jute"
is indeed lying. That would make you the incorrect accuser here, not
Carl. Are you going to offer him an apology now?

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article
<71cb7458-9190-472e-a6e0-d97e41c35731@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Jan 26, 5:00 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > Andre Jute wrote:
> > > On Jan 25, 2:27 am, Tom Sherman
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> [email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:> On Jan 24, 7:25
> > >> am, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>>> Yes, I was amazed that Fogel should start calling me a liar
> > >>>> before I could even answer.
> > >>> Hmm.  I didn't realize he'd called you a liar.  What I see
> > >>> instead is this rather mild statement:  "I'd love to be
> > >>> convinced that Andre has actually gone well over 100 kmh down
> > >>> some private farm road on that bike, but experience leads me to
> > >>> expect otherwise."...
> > >> "Dear Carl's" meaning was perfectly clear.
> >
> > > And repeated several times. No one except the blind and deaf or
> > > unthinkingly partisan could mistake Carl Fogel's intention to
> > > call me a liar before I even had a chance to answer Clive
> > > George's question..
> >
> > > I deliberately delayed giving a full explanation, and several
> > > times gave Fogel the tip that he made wrong assumptions, to give
> > > him time to apologize. He didn't.
> >
> >  > Do not hold your breath waiting for an apology or retraction
> > from Mr. Fogel - this is at least the third time he has posted
> > false accusations of lying or rec.bicycles.tech, and has never
> > recanted on the first two.
> >
> > -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia "And never forget, life
> > ultimately makes failures of all people." - A. Derleth
>
> Perhaps you could let me have references to Fogel's lies.

Learn to use Google.

> Sometimes when I run across a particularly virulent of example of
> mouthfoaming netscum I write a little article to make a moral midget
> notorious above his stature.

Then you should be writing an autobiography.

 

[Tom Sherman]

Andre Jute wrote:
> On Jan 26, 5:00 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>> On Jan 25, 2:27 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> [email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:> On Jan 24, 7:25 am, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Yes, I was amazed that Fogel should start calling me a liar before I
>>>>>> could even answer.
>>>>> Hmm. I didn't realize he'd called you a liar. What I see instead is
>>>>> this rather mild statement: "I'd love to be convinced that Andre has
>>>>> actually gone well over 100
>>>>> kmh down some private farm road on that bike, but experience leads me
>>>>> to expect otherwise."...
>>>> "Dear Carl's" meaning was perfectly clear.
>>> And repeated several times. No one except the blind and deaf or
>>> unthinkingly partisan could mistake Carl Fogel's intention to call me
>>> a liar before I even had a chance to answer Clive George's question..
>>> I deliberately delayed giving a full explanation, and several times
>>> gave Fogel the tip that he made wrong assumptions, to give him time to
>>> apologize. He didn't.
>> >
>> Do not hold your breath waiting for an apology or retraction from Mr.
>> Fogel - this is at least the third time he has posted false accusations
>> of lying or rec.bicycles.tech, and has never recanted on the first two.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>> "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
>> - A. Derleth
>
> Perhaps you could let me have references to Fogel's lies. Sometimes
> when I run across a particularly virulent of example of mouthfoaming
> netscum I write a little article to make a moral midget notorious
> above his stature.
>
Well you can ask a bicycle repair shop owner who frequents this
newsgroup about Mr. Fogel forwarding private emails without permission,
then denying it.

[start sarcasm]
This thread reveals that "Dear Carl" has the ability to read my mind, so
he knows better what I am thinking than I do. [end sarcasm]
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/fdafa5577b5d5112/55c14737cd6e586e?hl=en&tvc=1&q=fogel+disappointed#55c14737cd6e586e>

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Tom Sherman]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>> On Jan 25, 2:27 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> [email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:> On Jan 24, 7:25 am,
>>>> Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Yes, I was amazed that Fogel should start calling me a liar
>>>>>> before I could even answer.
>>>>> Hmm. I didn't realize he'd called you a liar. What I see
>>>>> instead is this rather mild statement: "I'd love to be convinced
>>>>> that Andre has actually gone well over 100 kmh down some private
>>>>> farm road on that bike, but experience leads me to expect
>>>>> otherwise."...
>>>> "Dear Carl's" meaning was perfectly clear.
>>> And repeated several times. No one except the blind and deaf or
>>> unthinkingly partisan could mistake Carl Fogel's intention to call
>>> me a liar before I even had a chance to answer Clive George's
>>> question..
>>>
>>> I deliberately delayed giving a full explanation, and several times
>>> gave Fogel the tip that he made wrong assumptions, to give him time
>>> to apologize. He didn't.
>> >
>> Do not hold your breath waiting for an apology or retraction from Mr.
>> Fogel - this is at least the third time he has posted false
>> accusations of lying or rec.bicycles.tech, and has never recanted on
>> the first two.
>
> Tom, you seem to be overlooking the obvious- which is that "Andre Jute"
> is indeed lying. That would make you the incorrect accuser here, not
> Carl. Are you going to offer him an apology now?
>
Mr. Jute's post was misdirection, not a lie. The moral character of that
behavior is not relevant to the discussion at hand.

If I wrote "my mountain bike has gone down hill at over 70 mph" it would
not be a lie. However, without further explanation, it would be
misdirection, since it was in the back of my Honda Civic at the time,
and not being ridden. What has Mr. Jute done differently?

Mr. Jute set a trap, and Mr. Fogel fell for it. Mr. Fogel accused Mr.
Jute of lying, when Mr. Fogel had no means of ascertaining the truth of
the matter.

As for apologies, Mr. Fogel still owes me one from several years ago,
but I am not holding my breath.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Tom Sherman]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Ben C? wrote:
>>> On 2008-01-26, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>> wrote: [...]
>>>> Mr. Jute's post was a troll in that it did attempt to lead people
>>>> down the wrong path. However, Mr. Fogel has some history on this
>>>> newsgroup of coming to the wrong conclusions, but never admitting
>>>> his error.
>>> What makes you so sure Mr Jute isn't lying? I thought Mr Fogel made
>>> a good case.
>> >
>> I do not know if Mr. Jute is lying or not. Neither does Mr. Fogel.
>
> There can be little doubt that Mr. Jute is lying. The overwhelming
> whiff of troll has been evident for quite some time.
>
Where is the evidence that Mr. Jute is lying? How can it be proved that
there was no truck, no Irish farm road, no Mr. Jute on a bicycle, etc?

Stating that Mr. Jute is lying is an opinion, not a fact.

There are plenty of people who perform various stunts, so why is
drafting a truck so improbable?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Bill Sornson]

Luke wrote:
> <big snip>
>
> POTM!

potd. (Ain't a compliment.)

 

[Bill Sornson]

Andre Jute wrote:

> Perhaps you could let me have references to Fogel's lies. Sometimes
> when I run across a particularly virulent of example of mouthfoaming
> netscum I write a little article to make a moral midget notorious
> above his stature.
>
> Andre Jute
> Freak show barker

DAGS on "Alan Braggins". LOL

 

[Tom Sherman]

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Luke wrote:
>> <big snip>
>>
>> POTM!
>
> potd. (Ain't a compliment.)
>
One of the few things we can agree on.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Tom Sherman]

Bill Sornson wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
>
>> Perhaps you could let me have references to Fogel's lies. Sometimes
>> when I run across a particularly virulent of example of mouthfoaming
>> netscum I write a little article to make a moral midget notorious
>> above his stature.
>>
>> Andre Jute
>> Freak show barker
>
> DAGS on "Alan Braggins". LOL
>
Yeah, but that thread was over 5000 posts!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Andre Jute wrote:
> >>> On Jan 25, 2:27 am, Tom Sherman
> >>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> [email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:> On Jan 24, 7:25
> >>>> am, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>> Yes, I was amazed that Fogel should start calling me a liar
> >>>>>> before I could even answer.
> >>>>> Hmm. I didn't realize he'd called you a liar. What I see
> >>>>> instead is this rather mild statement: "I'd love to be
> >>>>> convinced that Andre has actually gone well over 100 kmh down
> >>>>> some private farm road on that bike, but experience leads me to
> >>>>> expect otherwise."...
> >>>> "Dear Carl's" meaning was perfectly clear.
> >>> And repeated several times. No one except the blind and deaf or
> >>> unthinkingly partisan could mistake Carl Fogel's intention to
> >>> call me a liar before I even had a chance to answer Clive
> >>> George's question..
> >>>
> >>> I deliberately delayed giving a full explanation, and several
> >>> times gave Fogel the tip that he made wrong assumptions, to give
> >>> him time to apologize. He didn't.
> >> >
> >> Do not hold your breath waiting for an apology or retraction from
> >> Mr. Fogel - this is at least the third time he has posted false
> >> accusations of lying or rec.bicycles.tech, and has never recanted
> >> on the first two.
> >
> > Tom, you seem to be overlooking the obvious- which is that "Andre
> > Jute" is indeed lying. That would make you the incorrect accuser
> > here, not Carl. Are you going to offer him an apology now?
> >
>
> Mr. Jute's post was misdirection, not a lie. The moral character of
> that behavior is not relevant to the discussion at hand.

It is an obvious lie, Tom, about events which quite obviously did not
happen at all. This is relevant because it is the foundation of your
accusation against Carl in this thread. It suits your purpose to case
Jute's posts as a "misdirection," which is a further lie on your part.

> If I wrote "my mountain bike has gone down hill at over 70 mph" it
> would not be a lie. However, without further explanation, it would be
> misdirection, since it was in the back of my Honda Civic at the time,
> and not being ridden. What has Mr. Jute done differently?
>
> Mr. Jute set a trap, and Mr. Fogel fell for it. Mr. Fogel accused Mr.
> Jute of lying, when Mr. Fogel had no means of ascertaining the truth
> of the matter.

The truth of the matter is that Jute's story was an obvious fabrication
from whole cloth and that he is just a fairly obvious troll.

> As for apologies, Mr. Fogel still owes me one from several years ago,
> but I am not holding my breath.

No, but you are still carrying a grudge which is coloring your
perception in this thread.

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Ben C? wrote:
> >>> On 2008-01-26, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> >>> wrote: [...]
> >>>> Mr. Jute's post was a troll in that it did attempt to lead
> >>>> people down the wrong path. However, Mr. Fogel has some history
> >>>> on this newsgroup of coming to the wrong conclusions, but never
> >>>> admitting his error.
> >>> What makes you so sure Mr Jute isn't lying? I thought Mr Fogel
> >>> made a good case.
> >> >
> >> I do not know if Mr. Jute is lying or not. Neither does Mr. Fogel.
> >
> > There can be little doubt that Mr. Jute is lying. The overwhelming
> > whiff of troll has been evident for quite some time.
> >
> Where is the evidence that Mr. Jute is lying? How can it be proved
> that there was no truck, no Irish farm road, no Mr. Jute on a
> bicycle, etc?
>
> Stating that Mr. Jute is lying is an opinion, not a fact.
>
> There are plenty of people who perform various stunts, so why is
> drafting a truck so improbable?

Others have debunked the veracity of Jute's story, perhaps you have read
those posts. Jute's history in other newsgroups lends credence to his
being a troll and lying his head off yet again.

 

[Tom Sherman]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>>>> On Jan 25, 2:27 am, Tom Sherman
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> [email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:> On Jan 24, 7:25
>>>>>> am, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Yes, I was amazed that Fogel should start calling me a liar
>>>>>>>> before I could even answer.
>>>>>>> Hmm. I didn't realize he'd called you a liar. What I see
>>>>>>> instead is this rather mild statement: "I'd love to be
>>>>>>> convinced that Andre has actually gone well over 100 kmh down
>>>>>>> some private farm road on that bike, but experience leads me to
>>>>>>> expect otherwise."...
>>>>>> "Dear Carl's" meaning was perfectly clear.
>>>>> And repeated several times. No one except the blind and deaf or
>>>>> unthinkingly partisan could mistake Carl Fogel's intention to
>>>>> call me a liar before I even had a chance to answer Clive
>>>>> George's question..
>>>>>
>>>>> I deliberately delayed giving a full explanation, and several
>>>>> times gave Fogel the tip that he made wrong assumptions, to give
>>>>> him time to apologize. He didn't.
>>>> >
>>>> Do not hold your breath waiting for an apology or retraction from
>>>> Mr. Fogel - this is at least the third time he has posted false
>>>> accusations of lying or rec.bicycles.tech, and has never recanted
>>>> on the first two.
>>> Tom, you seem to be overlooking the obvious- which is that "Andre
>>> Jute" is indeed lying. That would make you the incorrect accuser
>>> here, not Carl. Are you going to offer him an apology now?
>> >
>>
>> Mr. Jute's post was misdirection, not a lie. The moral character of
>> that behavior is not relevant to the discussion at hand.
>
> It is an obvious lie, Tom, about events which quite obviously did not
> happen at all. This is relevant because it is the foundation of your
> accusation against Carl in this thread. It suits your purpose to case
> Jute's posts as a "misdirection," which is a further lie on your part.
>
How do you KNOW Mr. Jute's post is a lie? Could you convince an
impartial jury with the evidence at hand that Mr. Jute is lying beyond a
reasonable doubt? Unless someone has being tracking Mr. Jute ALL the
time since the earliest possible date his ride could have taken place
(when the bicycle that was reportedly used first came on the market), it
can not be definitively proved that his post is a lie. Anyone who
believes differently needs a remedial course in logic.

Furthermore, I do not see anything physically impossible in Mr. Jute's
claim. I have drafted city buses and a hay wagon pulled by a pick-up
truck, and the drag reduction was so significant I could maintain speeds
near 50 kph without great exertion. On a smooth downhill road, 100 kph
does not seem ridiculously impossible.

As for the last sentence in the above paragraph by Mr. McNamara, it is
hardly worth commenting on, and certainly not up to the normal standards
of his posts to this group.

>> If I wrote "my mountain bike has gone down hill at over 70 mph" it
>> would not be a lie. However, without further explanation, it would be
>> misdirection, since it was in the back of my Honda Civic at the time,
>> and not being ridden. What has Mr. Jute done differently?
>>
>> Mr. Jute set a trap, and Mr. Fogel fell for it. Mr. Fogel accused Mr.
>> Jute of lying, when Mr. Fogel had no means of ascertaining the truth
>> of the matter.
>
> The truth of the matter is that Jute's story was an obvious fabrication
> from whole cloth and that he is just a fairly obvious troll.
>
Truth? How can the truth be proclaimed by reading a few posts on Usenet?
Or is there some supernatural font that allows for omniscience?

>> As for apologies, Mr. Fogel still owes me one from several years ago,
>> but I am not holding my breath.
>
> No, but you are still carrying a grudge which is coloring your
> perception in this thread.
>
That merely makes me more aware of the behavior of Mr. Fogel.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Tom Sherman]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ben C? wrote:
>>>>> On 2008-01-26, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote: [...]
>>>>>> Mr. Jute's post was a troll in that it did attempt to lead
>>>>>> people down the wrong path. However, Mr. Fogel has some history
>>>>>> on this newsgroup of coming to the wrong conclusions, but never
>>>>>> admitting his error.
>>>>> What makes you so sure Mr Jute isn't lying? I thought Mr Fogel
>>>>> made a good case.
>>>> >
>>>> I do not know if Mr. Jute is lying or not. Neither does Mr. Fogel.
>>> There can be little doubt that Mr. Jute is lying. The overwhelming
>>> whiff of troll has been evident for quite some time.
>> >
>> Where is the evidence that Mr. Jute is lying? How can it be proved
>> that there was no truck, no Irish farm road, no Mr. Jute on a
>> bicycle, etc?
>>
>> Stating that Mr. Jute is lying is an opinion, not a fact.
>>
>> There are plenty of people who perform various stunts, so why is
>> drafting a truck so improbable?
>
> Others have debunked the veracity of Jute's story, perhaps you have read
> those posts. Jute's history in other newsgroups lends credence to his
> being a troll and lying his head off yet again.
>
I read all the other posts in this thread, and nothing was convincing to
"beyond a reasonable doubt" standard that Mr. Jute's reported feat could
not have taken place. An OPINION of highly unlikely is NOT the same as
PROOF.

As to my belief in the veracity of Mr. Jute's claim, it would be
irrelevant, since I have no knowledge of the actual events of his life.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jan 26, 2:47 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Jan 26, 5:00 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> Andre Jute wrote:
> >>> On Jan 25, 2:27 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> [email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:> On Jan 24, 7:25 am, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>> Yes, I was amazed that Fogel should start calling me a liar before I
> >>>>>> could even answer.
> >>>>> Hmm.  I didn't realize he'd called you a liar.  What I see instead is
> >>>>> this rather mild statement:  "I'd love to be convinced that Andre has
> >>>>> actually gone well over 100
> >>>>> kmh down some private farm road on that bike, but experience leads me
> >>>>> to expect otherwise."...
> >>>> "Dear Carl's" meaning was perfectly clear.
> >>> And repeated several times. No one except the blind and deaf or
> >>> unthinkingly partisan could mistake Carl Fogel's intention to call me
> >>> a liar before I even had a chance to answer Clive George's question..
> >>> I deliberately delayed giving a full explanation, and several times
> >>> gave Fogel the tip that he made wrong assumptions, to give him time to
> >>> apologize. He didn't.
>
> >> Do not hold your breath waiting for an apology or retraction from Mr.
> >> Fogel - this is at least the third time he has posted false accusations
> >> of lying or rec.bicycles.tech, and has never recanted on the first two.
>
> >> --
> >> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> >> "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
> >> - A. Derleth
>
> > Perhaps you could let me have references to Fogel's lies. Sometimes
> > when I run across a particularly virulent of example of mouthfoaming
> > netscum I write a little article to make a moral midget notorious
> > above his stature.
>
> Well you can ask a bicycle repair shop owner who frequents this
> newsgroup about Mr. Fogel forwarding private emails without permission,
> then denying it.


Feckless Fogel forwarding private emails??? I'm shocked! Shocked! :-o

Perhaps it was inevitable that the likes of Fogel and McCoy/Jute would
'find each other' on Usenet.

 

[Tom Sherman]

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Jan 26, 2:47 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>> On Jan 26, 5:00 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>>>> On Jan 25, 2:27 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> [email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:> On Jan 24, 7:25 am, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Yes, I was amazed that Fogel should start calling me a liar before I
>>>>>>>> could even answer.
>>>>>>> Hmm. I didn't realize he'd called you a liar. What I see instead is
>>>>>>> this rather mild statement: "I'd love to be convinced that Andre has
>>>>>>> actually gone well over 100
>>>>>>> kmh down some private farm road on that bike, but experience leads me
>>>>>>> to expect otherwise."...
>>>>>> "Dear Carl's" meaning was perfectly clear.
>>>>> And repeated several times. No one except the blind and deaf or
>>>>> unthinkingly partisan could mistake Carl Fogel's intention to call me
>>>>> a liar before I even had a chance to answer Clive George's question..
>>>>> I deliberately delayed giving a full explanation, and several times
>>>>> gave Fogel the tip that he made wrong assumptions, to give him time to
>>>>> apologize. He didn't.
>>>> Do not hold your breath waiting for an apology or retraction from Mr.
>>>> Fogel - this is at least the third time he has posted false accusations
>>>> of lying or rec.bicycles.tech, and has never recanted on the first two.
>>>> --
>>>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
>>>> "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
>>>> - A. Derleth
>>> Perhaps you could let me have references to Fogel's lies. Sometimes
>>> when I run across a particularly virulent of example of mouthfoaming
>>> netscum I write a little article to make a moral midget notorious
>>> above his stature.
>> Well you can ask a bicycle repair shop owner who frequents this
>> newsgroup about Mr. Fogel forwarding private emails without permission,
>> then denying it.
>
>
> Feckless Fogel forwarding private emails??? I'm shocked! Shocked! :-o
>
Yes, you should be:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/38437a9b506998f9?dmode=source>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jan 26, 9:26 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Jan 26, 2:47 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> Andre Jute wrote:
> >>> On Jan 26, 5:00 pm, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Andre Jute wrote:
> >>>>> On Jan 25, 2:27 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> [email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:> On Jan 24, 7:25 am, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Yes, I was amazed that Fogel should start calling me a liar before I
> >>>>>>>> could even answer.
> >>>>>>> Hmm.  I didn't realize he'd called you a liar.  What I see instead is
> >>>>>>> this rather mild statement:  "I'd love to be convinced that Andre has
> >>>>>>> actually gone well over 100
> >>>>>>> kmh down some private farm road on that bike, but experience leadsme
> >>>>>>> to expect otherwise."...
> >>>>>> "Dear Carl's" meaning was perfectly clear.
> >>>>> And repeated several times. No one except the blind and deaf or
> >>>>> unthinkingly partisan could mistake Carl Fogel's intention to call me
> >>>>> a liar before I even had a chance to answer Clive George's question...
> >>>>> I deliberately delayed giving a full explanation, and several times
> >>>>> gave Fogel the tip that he made wrong assumptions, to give him time to
> >>>>> apologize. He didn't.
> >>>> Do not hold your breath waiting for an apology or retraction from Mr.
> >>>> Fogel - this is at least the third time he has posted false accusations
> >>>> of lying or rec.bicycles.tech, and has never recanted on the first two.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> >>>> "And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
> >>>> - A. Derleth
> >>> Perhaps you could let me have references to Fogel's lies. Sometimes
> >>> when I run across a particularly virulent of example of mouthfoaming
> >>> netscum I write a little article to make a moral midget notorious
> >>> above his stature.
> >> Well you can ask a bicycle repair shop owner who frequents this
> >> newsgroup about Mr. Fogel forwarding private emails without permission,
> >> then denying it.
>
> > Feckless Fogel forwarding private emails??? I'm shocked! Shocked! :-o
>
> Yes, you should be:
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/38437a9b506998f9...>..
>



We won't mention those snail mail letters he sends out. (Oooops!)