Changing Groupset Make

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Christopher Harrison, Jun 10, 2008.

  1. Hi all,

    I am very tempted to upgrade my entire groupset, however I was
    wondering if I could please ask for a bit of advice?

    Firstly, my current set is Shimano-based; with 105s on the front,
    Tiagra on the back (or the other way around, I can't remember).
    Anyway, I would like to upgrade to the Campagnolo Centaur set... Now,
    I know that Shimano and Campagnolo kit are not mutually compatible;
    but if you're upgrading *everything* does this matter? Presumably the
    holes that are in the frame (Trek 1200) are standardised.

    Following that, I'm a bit confused as to what is what, when buying a
    groupset. I can manage crank length and cassette ratios -- but could
    someone please tell me what the difference is between an "Italian" and
    "English" bottom bracket; a "short" and "medium" rear mech; and a
    "braze on", "32mm band" and "35mm band" front mech?

    Many thanks, in advance :)
    Christopher
     
    Tags:


  2. Christopher Harrison wrote:

    > Hi all,


    > I am very tempted to upgrade my entire groupset, however I was
    > wondering if I could please ask for a bit of advice?


    Are you sure you want to change the entire groupset parts assembly
    combination? I may have missed a modifier there but you can fill. At
    least its not a grouppo. We seem to be divided by a common language.

    Jobst Brandt
     
  3. On Jun 10, 9:30 am, Christopher Harrison
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Hi all,
    >
    > I am very tempted to upgrade my entire groupset, however I was
    > wondering if I could please ask for a bit of advice?
    >
    > Firstly, my current set is Shimano-based; with 105s on the front,
    > Tiagra on the back (or the other way around, I can't remember).
    > Anyway, I would like to upgrade to the Campagnolo Centaur set... Now,
    > I know that Shimano and Campagnolo kit are not mutually compatible;
    > but if you're upgrading *everything* does this matter? Presumably the
    > holes that are in the frame (Trek 1200) are standardised.


    Yes they are-Bolt on the Campagnolo set, ensure you have a Campagnolo
    or Campagnolo compatible rear hub for the cogset, go ride.
    >
    > Following that, I'm a bit confused as to what is what, when buying a
    > groupset. I can manage crank length and cassette ratios -- but could
    > someone please tell me what the difference is between an "Italian" and
    > "English" bottom bracket; a "short" and "medium" rear mech; and a
    > "braze on", "32mm band" and "35mm band" front mech?


    Italian BB threads are 'correct' threaded on both sides. That is,
    right/clockwise to tighten the cups on both sides. Most frames,
    including the Trek, is 'english' which means the right side is
    opposite threaded, so left/counterclockwise to tighten. The left side
    is right/clockwise to tighten.

    Cage lengths on the rear derailleur allow for more chain length for
    more extreme cogset and front chainring ranges. For a double/2 ring
    crank and anything but the 13-29 rear cog, get a short. If
    double(either standard or compact-50/34tooth chainrings) and 13-29
    cogset, get the medium. If you aren't sure, get the medium.

    The front derailleur either is bolted on a little tab on the seat
    tube(brazeon) or if there is no tab welded/attached to the frame, it
    clamps on and depends on the diameter of the tube that it clamps onto.
    Either 28.6mm, 31.8mm or 34.9mm.

    If all this is mystifying, go talk to a decent bike shop.
    >
    > Many thanks, in advance :)
    > Christopher
     
  4. Hank

    Hank Guest

    On Jun 10, 9:21 am, [email protected] wrote:
    > Christopher Harrison wrote:
    > > Hi all,
    > > I am very tempted to upgrade my entire groupset, however I was
    > > wondering if I could please ask for a bit of advice?

    >
    > Are you sure you want to change the entire groupset parts assembly
    > combination?  I may have missed a modifier there but you can fill.  At
    > least its not a grouppo.  We seem to be divided by a common language.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt


    I understood everything the OP said, but have no idea what you're
    getting at.

    He says he wants to change out all the components, which he reiterates
    later in the post.
     
  5. Bill Sornson

    Bill Sornson Guest

    Christopher Harrison wrote:
    > Hi all,
    >
    > I am very tempted to upgrade my entire groupset


    Just plonk Frank and Flailor, and it ain't so bad.

    :p
     
  6. Bill Sornson

    Bill Sornson Guest

    Hank wrote:
    > On Jun 10, 9:21 am, [email protected] wrote:
    >> Christopher Harrison wrote:
    >>> Hi all,
    >>> I am very tempted to upgrade my entire groupset, however I was
    >>> wondering if I could please ask for a bit of advice?


    >> Are you sure you want to change the entire groupset parts assembly
    >> combination? I may have missed a modifier there but you can fill. At
    >> least its not a grouppo. We seem to be divided by a common language.
    >>
    >> Jobst Brandt


    > I understood everything the OP said, but have no idea what you're
    > getting at.


    Pedantry. Surprised?

    > He says he wants to change out all the components, which he reiterates
    > later in the post.


    Ol' JB never lets clear information interfere with his penchant for
    pointless bullying and belittling.

    HTH
     
  7. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Christopher Harrison" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]m...
    >
    > I am very tempted to upgrade my entire groupset, however I was
    > wondering if I could please ask for a bit of advice?


    The Centaur is a good group. About as good as the 105. The Centaur works a
    little better in some things and not quite as well in others. The 105 shifts
    smoother and quieter. The Centaur lets you know with a solid CLACK that it
    has changed gears. (BTW, I prefer the Campy)

    There is a difference in the rear cassette spacing between Shimano and
    Campagnolo for most of their groups so if you're planning on changing out
    the rear wheel as well you won't have any problems.

    As I recall, the Shimano brakes feel better, the Campy shifters are more to
    my tastes and the this is a spectacular deal on the Centaur Compact cranks :
    http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...storeid=&pagename=Shop by Subcat: Road Cranks

    Jobst HATES low gears by the way. Climbing a straight up road in anything
    lower than a 48-15 is sissy stuff to him. Not knocking him mind you - just
    trying to give you some idea of why his tastes are radically different from
    most people's.
     
  8. JG

    JG Guest

    Christopher,
    Taking a break from asking novice questions about Buddhism?

    Assuming you are seriously planning to swap out a bunch of mid-level
    Shimano components for mid-level Campy components...yes it will work
    fine if you change everything. But a new rear derailleur will require
    a new cluster which will require a new hub which will require someone
    to build a new wheel... If you don't know the difference between
    British and Italian BB threading go to Wikipedia and figure it out
    first.

    Of course it's your money and telling you how to spend it would be
    almost as obnoxiouos as telling someone how to parent. But a wool
    jersey or a Schmidt SON28 will do a lot more to enhance most normal
    person's cycling experience...

    JG
     
  9. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

    Dans le message de
    news:[email protected]m,
    JG <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
    > Christopher,
    > Taking a break from asking novice questions about Buddhism?
    >
    > Assuming you are seriously planning to swap out a bunch of mid-level
    > Shimano components for mid-level Campy components...yes it will work
    > fine if you change everything. But a new rear derailleur will require
    > a new cluster which will require a new hub which will require someone
    > to build a new wheel...


    Unless you use an American Classic cassette designed to replicate C spacing
    on a S freewheel body. Simpler, and this is a part that wears, anyway.
     
  10. On Jun 10, 10:30 am, Christopher Harrison
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I am very tempted to upgrade my entire groupset, however I was
    > wondering if I could please ask for a bit of advice?
    >
    > Firstly, my current set is Shimano-based; with 105s on the front,
    > Tiagra on the back (or the other way around, I can't remember).
    > Anyway, I would like to upgrade to the Campagnolo Centaur set.


    Why go to Campagnolo? Shifters are different from what you're used
    to-- have you ridden the Campy brifters, especially, and the rest of
    the grouppo*, and like it better?

    * Phhhht phhht test test this thing awn? --D-y
     
  11. Thanks, all :)

    I had forgotten what an "interesting" mix you find on Usenet! However,
    you've certainly answered my questions; for which I'm grateful. (One
    can never be too sure of Wikipedia!) Spero che io parli Campagnolo
    presto!

    I've had a closer look at my bike and it was the other way around: It
    seems to have a Tiagra chainset, hubs and brakes; with a 105 rear
    mech; and the standard Trek/Bontranger crank and [presumably] BB. As
    such, moving to Centaur level would be the upgrade I'm looking for;
    particularly as most of my components are ready for a change (due to
    wear). I was going to get some new wheels too, so hubs aren't an
    issue.
    Interestingly, you seem to imply that Centaur is about equivalent to
    105. From what I've researched, Centaur is about the equal of Ultegra
    (or better, depending what you read). Naïvely, they're about the same
    price; but would you guys concur?

    Apologies for my novice questions, but one has to start somewhere!

    Thanks;
    Christopher
     
  12. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Christopher Harrison" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]m...
    >
    > Interestingly, you seem to imply that Centaur is about equivalent to
    > 105. From what I've researched, Centaur is about the equal of Ultegra
    > (or better, depending what you read). Naïvely, they're about the same
    > price; but would you guys concur?


    Welllllll - operationally the Centaur is about equal to Ultegra. However,
    Ultegra is better finished in my opinion.
     
  13. On Jun 11, 9:19 am, Christopher Harrison
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Thanks, all :)
    > As
    > such, moving to Centaur level would be the upgrade I'm looking for;
    > particularly as most of my components are ready for a change (due to
    > wear). I was going to get some new wheels too, so hubs aren't an
    > issue.
    > Interestingly, you seem to imply that Centaur is about equivalent to
    > 105. From what I've researched, Centaur is about the equal of Ultegra
    > (or better, depending what you read). Naïvely, they're about the same
    > price; but would you guys concur?


    OK, I'll speak directly IRT to a problem with Campy.

    A longtime Campy user, I've gotten to the point where the thumb
    buttons are really bothering my thumbs-- when I want to ride on the
    hoods, which is most of the time, I can't wrap my thumbs around the
    hoods without getting poked in a bad place, and the newer "roundy"
    style thumb buttons have a little pointy place (on my Centaurs,
    anyhow) that is just exactly wrong for my poor old beat-up thumbs to
    handle.

    Rode a couple of ShimaNo bikes, Ultegra and Dura Ace. Despite the
    confusion in operating "strange" shifting controls that might occur at
    moments of stress (which could be somewhat dangerous, especially
    riding in tight groups), I'm thinking of switching brands. Plus, Campy
    hasn't made 165mm crank arms for many moons, and my old CRec items are
    piling up hours (slowly, but piling...).

    Big minus for Shimano are the flipper-style QR's for brakes, which can
    be left open (and we've all done it) accidentally and then your
    braking is much reduced, and of course the emergency situation is just
    waiting for you to forget to flip the thing closed again. The Campy
    button-style is so simple and so secure, it's a wonder Sh-No hasn't
    copied it (or the historical forebears from Weinmann and possibly
    others) long hence. At least they finally put an orbital adjuster
    washer under the brake shoes.

    The Shimano pedals beat the pants off Campy (opinion), as well. Having
    owned at least three sets of each...

    WTF cares about "equivalent" between brands, really? You want to look
    at the brand you're interested in to make a good choice IRT price v.
    bearing quality (for instance) and other functional/finish factors as
    you stroll through the catalog group sets. "This one is shinier" might
    be a valid factor, but not a primary one IMHO.

    IOW, if you can handle the thumb buttons, for one biggie, then Campy
    is fine. If changing might be a problem, for the buttons or "emergency
    response" on familiar controls, or any other reason, why change? --
    D-y
     
  14. On Jun 10, 9:30 am, Christopher Harrison
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Hi all,
    >
    > I am very tempted to upgrade my entire groupset, however I was
    > wondering if I could please ask for a bit of advice?
    >
    > Firstly, my current set is Shimano-based; with 105s on the front,
    > Tiagra on the back (or the other way around, I can't remember).
    > Anyway, I would like to upgrade to the Campagnolo Centaur set... Now,
    > I know that Shimano and Campagnolo kit are not mutually compatible;
    > but if you're upgrading *everything* does this matter? Presumably the
    > holes that are in the frame (Trek 1200) are standardised.


    You can change your components to campy. You need to make sure that
    you get everything. Shimano shifters will not work properly with campy
    parts and viceversa.
    >
    > Following that, I'm a bit confused as to what is what, when buying a
    > groupset. I can manage crank length and cassette ratios -- but could
    > someone please tell me what the difference is between an "Italian" and
    > "English" bottom bracket;


    it is the threading and opening size for the bottom bracket and
    headset that different builders use. Most use english threads which
    are almost standard now. Some Italian builders may still use Italian
    threads, but your Trek frame will have English threads.


    a "short" and "medium" rear mech; and a

    This is the length that separates the two pulleys in the rear
    deraullier. The more gears and ranges that you have, the longer that
    this distance will be to ensure even tension of the chain in all
    gears. a medium cage deraullier will work fine in more situations. a
    short cage deraullier will not. Since compact cranks and triples are
    very popular nowadays, you will probably benefit more from a medium
    cage deraullier.

    > "braze on", "32mm band" and "35mm band" front mech?


    brazed on means that the front deraullier is held to the frame by a
    bolt only. The bolt will fit a deraullier hanger that has been already
    brazed into the frame. If the frame does not have a brazed hanger, you
    need to get a front deraulier that has a band that clamps around the
    frame. The size of the clamp will depend on the diameter of the
    downtube.

    Finally, Mike Jacaubousky (sp) is a trek dealer. If you post a message
    here with his name and a reference to Trek, and ask him what threads,
    clamps, lengths you need, he'll know exactly what your bike will
    need.

    hope this helps,

    Andres
    >
    > Many thanks, in advance :)
    > Christopher
     
  15. In article <[email protected]>,
    "Tom Kunich" <[email protected] com> wrote:

    > "Christopher Harrison" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]m...
    > >
    > > I am very tempted to upgrade my entire groupset, however I was
    > > wondering if I could please ask for a bit of advice?

    >
    > The Centaur is a good group. About as good as the 105. The Centaur works a
    > little better in some things and not quite as well in others. The 105 shifts
    > smoother and quieter. The Centaur lets you know with a solid CLACK that it
    > has changed gears. (BTW, I prefer the Campy)
    >
    > There is a difference in the rear cassette spacing between Shimano and
    > Campagnolo for most of their groups so if you're planning on changing out
    > the rear wheel as well you won't have any problems.
    >
    > As I recall, the Shimano brakes feel better, the Campy shifters are more to
    > my tastes and the this is a spectacular deal on the Centaur Compact cranks :
    > http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...storeid=&pagename=Shop by Subcat: Road Cranks
    >
    > Jobst HATES low gears by the way. Climbing a straight up road in anything
    > lower than a 48-15 is sissy stuff to him. Not knocking him mind you - just
    > trying to give you some idea of why his tastes are radically different from
    > most people's.


    46/25

    --
    Michael Press
     
  16. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "Tom Kunich" <[email protected] com> wrote:
    >>
    >> Jobst HATES low gears by the way. Climbing a straight up road in anything
    >> lower than a 48-15 is sissy stuff to him. Not knocking him mind you -
    >> just
    >> trying to give you some idea of why his tastes are radically different
    >> from
    >> most people's.

    >
    > 46/25


    He rode by me while I was climbing Kings Mountain Rd. and his gear was so
    big that I couldn't see how he could turn it over.
     
  17. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "Tom Kunich" <[email protected] com> wrote:
    >
    >> "Christopher Harrison" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]m...
    >>> I am very tempted to upgrade my entire groupset, however I was
    >>> wondering if I could please ask for a bit of advice?

    >> The Centaur is a good group. About as good as the 105. The Centaur works a
    >> little better in some things and not quite as well in others. The 105 shifts
    >> smoother and quieter. The Centaur lets you know with a solid CLACK that it
    >> has changed gears. (BTW, I prefer the Campy)
    >>
    >> There is a difference in the rear cassette spacing between Shimano and
    >> Campagnolo for most of their groups so if you're planning on changing out
    >> the rear wheel as well you won't have any problems.
    >>
    >> As I recall, the Shimano brakes feel better, the Campy shifters are more to
    >> my tastes and the this is a spectacular deal on the Centaur Compact cranks :
    >> http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?...storeid=&pagename=Shop by Subcat: Road Cranks
    >>
    >> Jobst HATES low gears by the way. Climbing a straight up road in anything
    >> lower than a 48-15 is sissy stuff to him. Not knocking him mind you - just
    >> trying to give you some idea of why his tastes are radically different from
    >> most people's.


    Michael Press wrote:
    > 46/25


    Almost.
    Jobst rides a seven speed 13~26 cassette
    --
    Andrew Muzi
    <www.yellowjersey.org/>
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
     
  18. On Jun 11, 8:19 am, Christopher Harrison
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Thanks, all :)
    >
    > I had forgotten what an "interesting" mix you find on Usenet! However,
    > you've certainly answered my questions; for which I'm grateful. (One
    > can never be too sure of Wikipedia!) Spero che io parli Campagnolo
    > presto!
    >
    > I've had a closer look at my bike and it was the other way around: It
    > seems to have a Tiagra chainset, hubs and brakes; with a 105 rear
    > mech; and the standard Trek/Bontranger crank and [presumably] BB. As
    > such, moving to Centaur level would be the upgrade I'm looking for;
    > particularly as most of my components are ready for a change (due to
    > wear). I was going to get some new wheels too, so hubs aren't an
    > issue.
    > Interestingly, you seem to imply that Centaur is about equivalent to
    > 105. From what I've researched, Centaur is about the equal of Ultegra
    > (or better, depending what you read). Naïvely, they're about the same
    > price; but would you guys concur?


    Tough sometimes to match group to group but Centaur is roughly on the
    same lever as ultegra, little lighter. Veloce to 105.
    >
    > Apologies for my novice questions, but one has to start somewhere!
    >
    > Thanks;
    > Christopher
     
  19. On Jun 11, 5:10 pm, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected] com> wrote:

    > He rode by me while I was climbing Kings Mountain Rd. and his gear was so
    > big that I couldn't see how he could turn it over.


    It's a trick, like touching your nose with a sledge hammer. --D-y
     
  20. Hank

    Hank Guest

    On Jun 12, 5:34 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    > On Jun 11, 8:19 am, Christopher Harrison
    >
    >
    >
    > <[email protected]rison.co.uk> wrote:
    > > Thanks, all :)

    >
    > > I had forgotten what an "interesting" mix you find on Usenet! However,
    > > you've certainly answered my questions; for which I'm grateful. (One
    > > can never be too sure of Wikipedia!) Spero che io parli Campagnolo
    > > presto!

    >
    > > I've had a closer look at my bike and it was the other way around: It
    > > seems to have a Tiagra chainset, hubs and brakes; with a 105 rear
    > > mech; and the standard Trek/Bontranger crank and [presumably] BB. As
    > > such, moving to Centaur level would be the upgrade I'm looking for;
    > > particularly as most of my components are ready for a change (due to
    > > wear). I was going to get some new wheels too, so hubs aren't an
    > > issue.
    > > Interestingly, you seem to imply that Centaur is about equivalent to
    > > 105. From what I've researched, Centaur is about the equal of Ultegra
    > > (or better, depending what you read). Naïvely, they're about the same
    > > price; but would you guys concur?

    >
    > Tough sometimes to match group to group but Centaur is roughly on the
    > same lever as ultegra, little lighter. Veloce to 105.
    >
    >
    >


    ...and Mirage to Tiagra and Xenon to Sora...In terms of materials and
    features, those are pretty close parallels. Especially the Xenon/Sora
    comparison, both having plastic knuckles on the RD. And until 2007,
    both had different brifter mechanisms than their older sibling groups.
     
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