Cheap and reliable

dm69 said:

what makes a Book's opinion on powermeters any more valuable than that of real people???

Uh, the experience of the "real people" who wrote the book? 😉

acoggan said:

Uh, the experience of the "real people" who wrote the book? 😉

....as well as the experience of all the real people who read it and use it.

dm69 said:

.

http://www.midweekclub.com/powerFAQ.htm
http://www.biketechreview.com/archive/pm_review.htm
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/rechung/wattage/
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/pdf/power_v1.pdf
Please read these and come back and ask more questions.

Also consider buying the book, Training and Racing with a Power Meter as it contains mostly the same information as the FAQ (on powermeter comparison) with some updates on the comparison and info not in the FAQ.

Some information is not in the book or the FAQ (about the comparisons) but they cover 99 % of the info you might want to know.

dm69 said:

Well I read the reviews at road bike review and it seems I WILL NOT be investing in a powermeter any time soon! They are just too unreliable...is this consistent with what you other powermeter cyclists believe? I would love to ride with power for obvious reasons (more effective training) but it seems like there isn't a reliable option.

IMHO powermeters are a marketing exercise to make money. They really belong in the category of gadgets, not a neccessity to ensure serious bike riders will win races.

There will always be a need to be familiar with troubleshooting and the idiosyncracies for any of the major powermeters (haven't tried the Ergomo, but questions posted by owners indicates the same), no matter what the initial cost, unless one hires someone else to do that.

In other words it's questionable what gains really come out of using powermeters when even the best units on the market are problematic.

Is a training tool, like your HRM or cyclocomputer. But more accountable. What training tool you can use to gauge how hard above your LT you must ride in order cause certain adaptation?? Winning bike races involve more than just training right. Tactics, experience, and the depth of your competitions. Fitness is the foundation. A lot of the old school folks do not believe that. I know someone who has just catup to 3 and he has been consistently placing top 10 in the 4. He is not heavy but he can't climb. Haven't proven his strenght in a very hilly race. He can't TT. He is good at to be at the right place at the right time during the race. He does well with flatter, circuit road races. As a 3 now he is pretty much a packfill.

trevcooley said:

IMHO powermeters are a marketing exercise to make money. They really belong in the category of gadgets, not a neccessity to ensure serious bike riders will win races.

Are you serious??? What gains??? A power meter is like a coach/personal trainer. A tool that actually quantifies your intensity and your training load. Is extremely accountable. When the pack climbs at 5w/kg for more than 6 minutes while the best afford you can put out during training is less than that, you will get dropped. No amount of mental work and positioning will prevent that from happening.

trevcooley said:

There will always be a need to be familiar with troubleshooting and the idiosyncracies for any of the major powermeters (haven't tried the Ergomo, but questions posted by owners indicates the same), no matter what the initial cost, unless one hires someone else to do that.

In other words it's questionable what gains really come out of using powermeters when even the best units on the market are problematic.

BlueJersey said:

Are you serious??? What gains??? A power meter is like a coach/personal trainer. A tool that actually quantifies your intensity and your training load. Is extremely accountable. When the pack climbs at 5w/kg for more than 6 minutes while the best afford you can put out during training is less than that, you will get dropped. No amount of mental work and positioning will prevent that from happening.

Yeah but you don't need a power meter to be able to get up to 5W/kg for a climb. Seriously, power meters aren't that essential. I'm going to kick serious ass next year, and I'm going to do it all with a HRM. All that matters is how I feel. Power numbers are the product of good training. The extra 5-20% or whatever efficiency you get with your power meter training isn't that essential unless you are aiming to be a professional. Otherwise, it's like a CAT5 racer racing on Lance Armstrong's roadbike. The bike doesn't make the rider, neither does the expensive power meter he trains with. People will always win without wasting money on a power meter because they are hard workers and have the ability. Power meters aren't going to make you professional.

trevcooley said:

There will always be a need to be familiar with troubleshooting and the idiosyncracies for any of the major powermeters (haven't tried the Ergomo, but questions posted by owners indicates the same), no matter what the initial cost, unless one hires someone else to do that.

In other words it's questionable what gains really come out of using powermeters when even the best units on the market are problematic.

No, I don't believe in sugarcoating reality and that most consumer goods have pros and cons. I have used most of the powermeters out there so I thought I would share what appeared to be relevant with dm69's concerns. If you have actually used any of these and have something useful to add to the thread, that would be great.

My reading of your four total posts to date is that you have not ridden a bike much (or maybe not bought anything bike related - which is fine) in the last twenty years, and you ask an inappropriate question (the cycling equipment forum would be better suited) about your non-power equipment in the forum dedicated to power training, then insist the subject of the entire forum is dedicated to fleecing people of their money. That's all fine and good, it just appears odd.

If you wish to learn more, I posted a message earlier in this thread which contains a link to the FAQ where instead of quoting me, a hapless and cynical end user, you can read what other many people have collectively created as a repository of information.

Yes, you do need a power meter to know how much power you can put out. Isn't that obvious??? Don't train with a power meter, this essential information won't be avaliable to you. So, then, how do you know HOW hard you must train in order to keep up with the pack on a climb??? If you are gifted and with a base fitness level of a cat3 and that would be a different story. It feels hard just because you are tired, not because you have reached the desired or required intensity.

K50 said:

Yeah but you don't need a power meter to be able to get up to 5W/kg for a climb. Seriously, power meters aren't that essential. I'm going to kick serious ass next year, and I'm going to do it all with a HRM. All that matters is how I feel. Power numbers are the product of good training. The extra 5-20% or whatever efficiency you get with your power meter training isn't that essential unless you are aiming to be a professional. Otherwise, it's like a CAT5 racer racing on Lance Armstrong's roadbike. The bike doesn't make the rider, neither does the expensive power meter he trains with. People will always win without wasting money on a power meter because they are hard workers and have the ability. Power meters aren't going to make you professional.

[quote="BlueJersey"]Is a training tool, like your HRM or cyclocomputer. But more accountable. What training tool you can use to gauge how hard above your LT you must ride in order cause certain adaptation?? Winning bike races involve more than just training right. Tactics, experience, and the depth of your competitions. Fitness is the foundation. A lot of the old school folks do not believe that. I know someone who has just catup to 3 and he has been consistently placing top 10 in the 4. He is not heavy but he can't climb. Haven't proven his strenght in a very hilly race. He can't TT. He is good at to be at the right place at the right time during the race. He does well with flatter, circuit road

The most important training tool to use is your brain. Aside from this there are many tools cyclists can use and steps they can take to ensure they continue to improve without rushing out to buy a powermeter.
Powermeters don't turn people into Lance Armstrong if they don't have a good training programme to cater for the type of events they are going to compete in and have the discipline to stick to it.
There is a lot to be learned simply by keeping an eye on your heart rate at different points in your training rides and using the measurements of time and distance. Once you have started doing this you have a bench mark to measure your progress
There are 101 reasons why your friend is a poor climber however if I was to guess I would say he most likely avoids hills when he is training. lol

BlueJersey said:

Are you serious??? What gains??? A power meter is like a coach/personal trainer. A tool that actually quantifies your intensity and your training load. Is extremely accountable. When the pack climbs at 5w/kg for more than 6 minutes while the best afford you can put out during training is less than that, you will get dropped. No amount of mental work and positioning will prevent that from happening.

Why don't you have any idea why your friend is a poor hill climber if his powermeter knows everything?
Your powermeter can give you all the information it likes, whether or not you have what it takes to improve on those figures is another story.
BTW, I have had several real coaches and the difference is they can look at your performance and suggest what you need to do to improve. Your coach tells you any load of baloney it likes.

trevcooley said:

There is a lot to be learned simply by keeping an eye on your heart rate at different points in your training rides and using the measurements of time and distance. Once you have started doing this you have a bench mark to measure your progress

Well, maybe you can help me; what kind of progress I'm making. Four training rides on the same 30 km road from A to B, different days. The HRs were basically the same at each of the rides, so let's go to speed and distance:

Ride 1: No wind. Average speed 35 km/h.
Ride 2: strong headwind. Average speed 26 km/h.
Ride 3: sidewind. 29 km/h.
Ride 4: gusty side/back wind. 32 km/h.

How would you benchmark my prgress? Am I making any progress?

sidewind said:

Well, maybe you can help me; what kind of progress I'm making. Four training rides on the same 30 km road from A to B, different days. The HRs were basically the same at each of the rides, so let's go to speed and distance:

Ride 1: No wind. Average speed 35 km/h.
Ride 2: strong headwind. Average speed 26 km/h.
Ride 3: sidewind. 29 km/h.
Ride 4: gusty side/back wind. 32 km/h.

How would you benchmark my prgress? Am I making any progress?

The first thing to find out about yourself is how fast your heart beat is at different intervals during your training.
In perfect conditions for example if you train on a 76" gear and maintain 90 pedals a minute your heart rate will flatten out at X amount of beats over whatever distance you choose.
If your training is effective and your fitness is improving beginners will see their heart no longer need to beat as fast as it once did whilst they push that 76" gear at 90 pedals a minute

BTW, if a person is riding the same route on a regular basis it's unlikely you won't have enough of your training rides in similar conditions wind wise to give you something to compare. I am not suggesting everyday will be identical

If you want to find out a lot about yourself racing will help paint the picture.
For Example:
If you are getting blown away during races at the first sign of a hill you don't need a powermeter to tell you anything. It's simple , it maybe time you hit the gym and strengthened those skinny little legs or maybe you are slack and dodge hills when training. At the same time God didn't design all of us to win King of the mountain.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out where you are at even if you are training with a bunch on a regular basis. You are around other guys that race and if your out on a 100K training ride with them twice a week you get to find out a bit about their strengths and weaknesses and your own.
I can recall being a 17 year old training with the seniors as much as I could and one little benchmark was how many turns I did on the last ride without blowing up.

Why is it so hard to admit that with a power meter I can just look the numbers and see how was the training ride, and am I making process?

But yes, I have cycling friends, who hardly know what a "Watt" is, and even less care how those are related with cycling performance.

This forum is not for you because you are still an old school. Second, you are yapping about HRM training. Power training is beyond that. Yes, you need a brain to use a power meter in order to understand your FT and the significance of your 5 minutes to 20 minutes power. Otherwise, those numbers mean the same as your HRM training. I bet my weekly 5x5 power work on a 8% grade hill is more intense than your 100k group ride, unless you are frequently dueling out with your local cat1 and cat2.

trevcooley said:

The first thing to find out about yourself is how fast your heart beat is at different intervals during your training.
In perfect conditions for example if you train on a 76" gear and maintain 90 pedals a minute your heart rate will flatten out at X amount of beats over whatever distance you choose.
If your training is effective and your fitness is improving beginners will see their heart no longer need to beat as fast as it once did whilst they push that 76" gear at 90 pedals a minute

BTW, if a person is riding the same route on a regular basis it's unlikely you won't have enough of your training rides in similar conditions wind wise to give you something to compare. I am not suggesting everyday will be identical

If you want to find out a lot about yourself racing will help paint the picture.
For Example:
If you are getting blown away during races at the first sign of a hill you don't need a powermeter to tell you anything. It's simple , it maybe time you hit the gym and strengthened those skinny little legs or maybe you are slack and dodge hills when training. At the same time God didn't design all of us to win King of the mountain.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out where you are at even if you are training with a bunch on a regular basis. You are around other guys that race and if your out on a 100K training ride with them twice a week you get to find out a bit about their strengths and weaknesses and your own.
I can recall being a 17 year old training with the seniors as much as I could and one little benchmark was how many turns I did on the last ride without blowing up.

Because he is from the old school. The only way he can gauge his fitness is to duel it out with the local racers. Unfortunately, everyone has jobs and people do not train together all the time. If then, the ride becomes a group ride, instead of a training ride. When he left cycling HRM was just catching on. Of course, now, HRM training is all voodoo.

sidewind said:

Why is it so hard to admit that with a power meter I can just look the numbers and see how was the training ride, and am I making process?

But yes, I have cycling friends, who hardly know what a "Watt" is, and even less care how those are related with cycling performance.

He looks like he is training and thinking just like you. Don't use a power meter. 😄

trevcooley said:

Why don't you have any idea why your friend is a poor hill climber if his powermeter knows everything?
Your powermeter can give you all the information it likes, whether or not you have what it takes to improve on those figures is another story.
BTW, I have had several real coaches and the difference is they can look at your performance and suggest what you need to do to improve. Your coach tells you any load of baloney it likes.

dm69 said:

What are the more "budget" powermeters going around? I wouldn't mind a powermeter on my training bike (who wouldn't) but I don't want to fork out $5000 for a top of the line SRM. I figure that if I am thinking of investing $3-$4000 on a new bike then I should atleast entertain the idea of buying a powermeter instead?

keep in mind mind weight is not an issue but relaibility and pricing is!

You have a couple questions to ask yourself first:
1) will you be wanting to use the PM on more than one bike? (ie, switching back and forth)
2) will you be wanting to use the PM on an indoor trainer at any point?
3) is it important that the PM can be used on both road and MTB?
4) what is your budget?

Any others, guys?

If there was a powermeter made out of wood, I bet he'd be all over it.

BlueJersey said:

Because he is from the old school. The only way he can gauge his fitness is to duel it out with the local racers. Unfortunately, everyone has jobs and people do not train together all the time. If then, the ride becomes a group ride, instead of a training ride. When he left cycling HRM was just catching on. Of course, now, HRM training is all voodoo.