Cheap disk are not better than good V-brakes!

Discussion in 'Mountain Bikes' started by Jerry Everetts, Oct 24, 2003.

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  1. Bomba

    Bomba Guest

    On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:50:58 -0800, Jonesy wrote:

    >> I've broken several.
    >
    > None that were brand new, I'll wager.

    Nope.

    >> More on the bmx, but a couple on the mountain bike. There's no way of proving that I didn't cut
    >> this, but here's the last Oryg cable I snapped (I kept it for spares):
    >
    > I'm not familiar with the brand, but I will assume that it's quality is on par with RideOn or
    > such like.

    They're pretty good quality, but nothing special.

    I am going to guess that some
    > sort of damage began the failure, and that you just finished it off. When I seat ferrules and
    > housings, I use four fingers and really pull the cable hard. I do that ten times, adjust, and the
    > thing stays the same for the rest of the season(s). No adjusting. I never need more than one
    > finger to lock up my Avids. I think there's more going on here than mere cable breakage.

    Quite possibly. That cable had been on there for about a year and you're probably not aware of the
    power needed to get AD990's to lock up through an Oryg...

    >> Cables do stretch as the outer wires close around the core under tension. This is known as
    >> 'constructional stretch' (spot who's been on Google :)
    >
    > Heh. Die-drawn bicycle cables are already "pre-stretched" then. We are still talking about bicycle
    > cables, right?

    Yep, and I'll concede that I'm probably wrong.

    >> Mine have always fouled up on the first or second wet ride. Maybe I've just been unlucky.
    >
    > I would say so! I've used RideOn, Shimano SIS and Jagwire, all Teflon/Teflon, and never had any
    > problem, either with the brake or derailleur cable (that was not of my own ham-handedness.) Every
    > so often (no regular interval - just when I get around to it,) I shoot out the housing with WD40,
    > then compressed air. I then run a little Krytox spray into the housing and let it dry (Teflon
    > based lube) Put the cable in, snug everything up - viola! ;) Run it some more until I get around
    > to lubing (or replacing the cable) again. I really don't put that much effort into the whole deal.

    I've used Ride-Ons for gears and brakes. They just gunked up immediately and were off the bike
    within a couple of weeks. I put some Avid Flak Jackets on that came with my Arch Rivals a few months
    ago, but they were rubbish from the moment I put them on - crap weather conditions just made them
    even worse.

    My current beau uses full length outer for the gears and hydraulics for the brakes. That's me happy.

    > My cables have never broken, and they don't hang up unless I snag them on something and they get a
    > kink. That's happened a couple of times. I understand that if you do that to hydro brakes, they
    > can leak and leave you without brakes without your knowledge. A definite downside.
    >
    > In addition, hydro hose needs a special tool to cut, right?

    I just cut mine with cable cutters.

    --
    a.m-b FAQ: http://www.j-harris.net/bike/ambfaq.htm

    b.bmx FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/bmx_faq.htm
     


  2. Shaun Rimmer

    Shaun Rimmer Guest

    "Jonesy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > In addition, hydro hose needs a special tool to cut, right? And some you can't cut, but need to
    > leave as-is. I've never had to do it, so I don't know. My Kona came with Hayes already on it.

    I have a Hope Mini, never needed to do anything to the hose in 2 years, and nothing to the breaks
    outside of pad change, that wasn't my own fault, plenty of use/abuse, bleeding is easy. Cables?
    Nothing but hassle with all and any cables.

    Shaun aRe
     
  3. D H

    D H Guest

    "Jonesy" <[email protected]> wrote in message (snip)
    > > And we told you that even the best mechanicals do not equal good hydraulics. Can't happen.
    >
    > While *strictly* true, most folks will enjoy the large V-to-disc benefits far more than the small
    > mech-to-hydro benefits. Especially when price is factored in.

    MOST? I think MOST who have actually ridden hydraulic for any period of time will not want to go
    back to cables. We have a difference of opinion, but no clear method of resolving it, since MOST
    will not have the opportunity to try all the options.

    > > A cable is a cable is a cable.
    >
    > This is actually a plus. Cables are very reliable, known systems. Especially in bicycle
    > applications. They don't leak, never get cavitation, are not hydroscopic, and never boil due to
    > heat build-up in the caliper.

    One man's plus is another man's pus. Cables cause me to ooze nastiness. Fluid doesn't stick
    against the housings, which have no entrance points for crap to get IN the housings. Hayes
    hydros use brake fluid. I think it withstands all the heat I can generate against it, so it
    doesn't boil. (Shimano discs cannot make the same boast.)

    > > It stretches some
    >
    > Myth.

    Could be. Other arguments on this point are more schooled, so I waive the point. Instead, I'll
    restate it in other words. Cables FEEL like they stretch. I'm not talking about the need for
    an adjustment later, which is pretty minimal trouble, but about the sensation experienced when
    braking with a cable brake (disc OR V-brake). It SEEMS as if the cable is stretching as you
    are forced to apply more and more torque to the lever to TRY to get things slowed down. In
    fact, what may be happening is that which is related to the housing issue. The housings flex
    and rob some of the torque applied to the lever, preventing some of that force (or power?
    whatever? I not a physics student) from reaching the brakes. You all have known that spongy
    feel to a cable-actuated brake at some point, I think. That's what I'm referring to
    (incorrectly?) as stretch.

    > > it drags against a housing
    >
    > Teflon against teflon makes this point moot.

    Hardly.You must ride in a totally spotless environment. Or you must not ride MUCH. Teflon is
    nice _while it lasts_.

    > > it does eventually break
    >
    > Not if you replace them every two years (YMMV.) A whole set of brake cables is pretty damn cheap.

    Not as cheap as brake fluid. WalMart works just fine here. Two years??? My mileage definitely
    does vary. By the way, ever try to find a new brake noodle? Ever notice how soon the liner in a
    noodle is pulled out of place and wearing through, failing to give any more lube assistance?

    > And easy to install. Cheap and easy - Sorni's favorite combo.

    Easier, yes. But when you figure how often you have to do it, (for those of us who CAN'T get 2
    years out of a brake cable) it is well worth learning how to bleed brakes. It's not that tough,
    and is mainly just a new skill to learn.

    > > Sure hydraulics have their limitations and downsides too, if you fear leaks,
    etc.
    >
    > Especially when it leaks right on the pads. Some hydros are a PITA to bleed.

    Well, your first mistake is to be bleeding brakes with pads anywhere in the area. You remove
    them first, or at least cover them securely to prevent this sad occurrence.

    > > I personally don't because they are FAR more rare than cable problems.
    >
    > Having run both kinds, I have noticed no reliability differences. Mechs are cheaper to get, easier
    > to set up and do the job almost as well as hydros.

    Agreed. That ALMOST word can cover a lot of ground, though.

    > > Don't give up on discs just because you tried crap. Buy Hayes or XT or Hope hydros and see what
    > > you've missed. I will NEVER go back to
    rim-eating,
    > > grabby, useless-in-the-wet brakes again.
    >
    > Hey, we agree on that, at least. But if someone's on a budget, then Avid mechanicals are nearly as
    > good as decent hydro disks - for a fraction of the price. I liked my Hayes hydros, but I'm running
    > Avid mechs now. The very small performance hit I took is more than made up for in the other ways
    > mentioned.

    I guess the price issue is more real than I give it credit, but it is not exactly HUGE. Avid is
    a fine mechanical disc setup, but a lower end Hayes hydro setup is very close in price. I just
    saw $200 full setup for Hayes HFX hydros. I'd gladly take that over paying at least $140-150 for
    Avid mechs. (I didn't look up that price, but I bet it's accurate. Correct me if I'm far wrong.)
    I guess we look at the budget deal a bit different. For me, I HATE to have to start all over
    again because I bought too low. I'd rather bite the bullet and suffer a bit to have the thing I
    intend to stay with rather than buy an in-betweener setup to get by with for a while.
    --
    Off to ride the mountains, D H Reply to newsgroup. Spam is out of control.
     
  4. D H

    D H Guest

    "Bob M" <[email protected]> wrote in message (snip)
    > > With this info, am I really going to see a big benefit from hydro brakes over mechanical? I'm
    > > not looking for flame wars on people's personal preferences, just wondering if the extra
    > > cost/weight/maintenance is
    worth
    > > it in my case?
    > >
    > > TIA Gary
    > >
    >
    > I think so. I went to mechanical disk on the front only, and there's no more squealing and it
    > stops better (particularly in the wet and snow).
    >
    > --
    > Bob M in CT Remove 'x.' to reply

    Bob, you went to mechanical from what? V-brakes, I assume. There would be no difference in
    amount of squealing between mechanical vs hydro. The squealing is from the combination of
    factors, including but not necessarily limited to brake pad choice and condition, trail
    material, rotor and pads condition and cleanliness (ie. free of oils, etc), and the current
    phase of the moon. :) Gary, you mention technical trails. That's where I found the difference
    to be significant. Hydraulic lever feel is so much better than mechanicals _when they are less
    than perfect_ that I would only take mechanicals as a second choice. Not a terrible choice, but
    not the best either. I had Avid mechanical on the front before switching to full hydraulic on
    both ends. The smoothness of the hydraulics is so much better and this translates into just
    better braking, period. The more feel you have for exactly what is going on, the better you will
    USE the brakes. I skid WAY less with discs than ever with V's, and I ALWAYS tried to avoid
    skidding. I manage to smoothly brake around tough switchbacks with more confidence and success
    than ever with V's OR with mechanical discs. I recently rode a place that is rather remote and I
    only get to about 2-4 times a year, if that. It has a super tough switchback that is so steep it
    scares me just remembering it, but when I rode it recently, I just decided before I got to it
    that I had the stuff that day to do it, and sure enough, I cleaned it without hesitation (I
    didn't say without trepidation, mind you). I attribute that SOLELY to knowing I could count on
    my brakes to not grab at the worst possible moment. I'm telling you, you will never have that
    confidence with mechanicals ALL THE TIME as you can with hydraulics. Sure, I'm one of those who
    is fanatical about discs first, and hydraulic discs next. The question is, do you really save
    that much money going mechanical? I don't think so, especially if you shop around. I got a full
    set of used but perfectly functioning Hayes hydraulics 2 1/2 years ago for $200, when at the
    time it was hard to find mechanicals of any quality that were much cheaper at all. They are NOT
    that tough to work on, either. I had zero experience with them and yet have never had to go to
    shop for help with them. I bled them myself. I rebuilt a caliper 2 weeks ago myself, rebleeding
    the system then. That's all I've had to do other than change pads. Well that's my 2 cents worth
    (times 10?)
    --
    Off to ride the mountains, D H Reply to newsgroup. Spam is out of control.
     
  5. Bob M

    Bob M Guest

    On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:46:49 -0000, Shaun Rimmer <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    > "Jonesy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >> In addition, hydro hose needs a special tool to cut, right? And some you can't cut, but need to
    >> leave as-is. I've never had to do it, so I don't know. My Kona came with Hayes already on it.
    >
    > I have a Hope Mini, never needed to do anything to the hose in 2 years, and nothing to the breaks
    > outside of pad change, that wasn't my own fault, plenty of use/abuse, bleeding is easy. Cables?
    > Nothing but hassle with all and any cables.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Shaun aRe
    >
    >
    >

    If I had a choice, I'd buy hydraulic. However, for me, all I wanted was a front disk setup. Buying
    cable operated was very cheap (got last year's model) and easy.

    --
    Bob M in CT Remove 'x.' to reply
     
  6. I think there's more going on
    > > here than mere cable breakage.
    >
    > Quite possibly. That cable had been on there for about a year and you're probably not aware of the
    > power needed to get AD990's to lock up through an Oryg...

    heeheehee indeed.

    Steve.
     
  7. D H wrote:

    > Not as cheap as brake fluid. WalMart works just fine here. Two years??? My mileage definitely
    > does vary. By the way, ever try to find a new brake noodle? Ever notice how soon the liner in
    > a noodle is pulled out of place and wearing through, failing to give any more lube assistance?
    >

    Brake noodles are a PITA, but you don't use them for mech discs .. you knew that.

    > I guess the price issue is more real than I give it credit, but it is not exactly HUGE. Avid
    > is a fine mechanical disc setup, but a lower end Hayes hydro setup is very close in price. I
    > just saw $200 full setup for Hayes HFX hydros. I'd gladly take that over paying at least
    > $140-150 for Avid mechs. (I didn't look up that price, but I bet it's accurate. Correct me if
    > I'm far wrong.) I guess we look at the budget deal a bit different. For me, I HATE to have to
    > start all over again because I bought too low. I'd rather bite the bullet and suffer a bit to
    > have the thing I intend to stay with rather than buy an in-betweener setup to get by with for
    > a while.

    I think your price for Avid mechs is correct, full Hayes setup for $200? Including levers and such?
    Pretty good price.

    --
    Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado (remove ".nospam" to reply)
     
  8. Jonesy

    Jonesy Guest

    Bob M <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:46:49 -0000, Shaun Rimmer <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > "Jonesy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >> In addition, hydro hose needs a special tool to cut, right? And some you can't cut, but need to
    > >> leave as-is. I've never had to do it, so I don't know. My Kona came with Hayes already on it.
    > >
    > > I have a Hope Mini, never needed to do anything to the hose in 2 years, and nothing to the
    > > breaks outside of pad change, that wasn't my own fault, plenty of use/abuse, bleeding is easy.
    > > Cables? Nothing but hassle with all and any cables.
    >
    > If I had a choice, I'd buy hydraulic. However, for me, all I wanted was a front disk setup. Buying
    > cable operated was very cheap (got last year's model) and easy.

    That's how I originally got into mech disks. Needed something better for the front of my beater
    hardtail. Didn't want to drop the $150 or so for lever, hose, disk and caliper. All I really needed
    was disk and caliper (already had front hub that worked for the process, lever and cable.) So I
    spent $65.

    All this whining about cables! I've ridden in the wet and the muck, and never had a problem. Mud
    every-freakin-where, and no cable hassles. I have no idea why you guys have so much hassle.

    If the guy can get the Hayes hydros for $200 for all the stuff - levers, hoses, calipers and disks,
    then I'd jump on that in a second. But part of the attraction for me was the fact that performance
    wasn't that different (noticeable, but not the spectacular difference between disks and Vs) and the
    fact that I had levers and cables just lying around, so all I needed was the calipers and disks.
    (Or, in the case of the original HT, caliper and disk.)

    So far, the performance difference just doesn't justify the cost difference. Now, some time in the
    future, I might just go out and spend $200 on the hydros - if I can get the whole mess, and not
    have to buy hoses and levers on top of that. But so far, I've not had any reason to complain about
    my set-up.
    --
    Jonesy

    E-mail me: rfjonesy *at* hotmail *dot* com
     
  9. Nah, just stuck here really.

    --
    Phil, Squid-in-Training "Jerry Everetts" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
    > > "Jerry Everetts" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >>Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
    > >>
    > >>>>ok, but it took a bit more lever pressure than the XTR V-brake.
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>That bothers me too. I like the adjustability of my featherlight
    > >
    > > v-brakes.
    > >
    > >>>To my replyer... I am not discounting discs entirely... but there's a
    > >
    > > bit of
    > >
    > >>>a weight penalty, plus a new hub. I'm in Florida. No downhills.
    Ergo,
    > >>>discs not needed ;)
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >>PHil, I am in Florida as well, where are you at?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Gainesville @ UF. I see you're nearby Orlando, no?
    > >
    > Daytona area... ever get down this way?
     
  10. On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 03:17:44 -0500, "D H" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> While *strictly* true, most folks will enjoy the large V-to-disc benefits far more than the small
    >> mech-to-hydro benefits. Especially when price is factored in.
    >
    > MOST? I think MOST who have actually ridden hydraulic for any period of time will not want to
    > go back to cables. We have a difference of opinion, but no clear method of resolving it, since
    > MOST will not have the opportunity to try all the options.

    I've never ridden it but i want it badly :) I ride the whole winter and there always seem to be some
    moisture entering the cable to the rear brake. When I take my bike out, that moisture freezes so the
    first time I use the rear brake, it sticks. I have to stop and loosen it up again by hand. This
    happens to the rear derailleur sometimes too, though not so frequently. Cleaning and oiling only
    helps for a very short time, I have to do it twice a week at least to avoid all problems.

    The front brake cable has no problems because of the length and few points for moisture to enter.
    Same goes for front derailleur. So what I want most is a rear hydraulic disc brake. Wouldn't say no
    to rear hydraulic derailleur too :)

    My next bike will have hydraulic discs all around. Wouldn't even consider mechanical.
     
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