Cheap Gas=Unnatural Capitalism

[Don Quijote]

[email protected] (Dave Simpson) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Don Quijote wrote:
>
> > > Fuel prices in the United States are not "too low" or "artificially low." Such statements are
> > > lies from the Left used in the desire for the United States to far more heavily tax fuels as
> > > is done in Europe and elsewhere. Neither our fuel prices nor our AIDS or tuberculosis rates in
> > > the United States are "too low" or "artificially low" compared to rates in other nations where
> > > these rates or fuel prices are higher.
>
> > The revenues from higher taxes could be used to fight poverty. But, of course, who cares
> > about it...
>
> We have spent billions, trillions, fighting poverty.
>
> There are other, equally if not more desireable things, on which someone might want government
> to spend vast new revenues, but that doesn't justify such actions by themselves. People as it is
> are getting tired again of too-high taxes. You can claim all you want that the spending helps
> people or the economy, but that's for the benefiaries; the taxpayers and the economy are harmed
> by the taxes. And harm is not restricted to the economic: the programs for which government has
> spent money to fight poverty and such have failed to eliminate poverty and often act perversely
> to bribe or even reward the poor, and bad decision-making. (As a Democrat who has written a book
> on the "actuarial limits" to the foolish insistence on having government be a substitute or
> surrogate for the family, also known as "finite limits" in eco-speak, but referring to what
> people are able or willing to pay in taxes, our government social "insurance" programs are the
> equivalent of fire insurance that pays people to leave pots of boiling oil on stoves.)

Yeah, of course, it's a matter of "priorities"...

HOW THE LION BENEFITS FROM THE LITTLE ANIMALS' POVERTY

One day all the little animals went up to the King of the Jungle and complained about their poverty,
and in particular about the fact that every time, during the dry season, they had to travel long
distances to drink the precious fluid, and demanded a water well be built for them... They cited how
the resources that they contributed to the kingdom were wasted in wars and fancy projects to the
tastes of the King... He, however, replied with all kinds of excuses: the lack of resources, that it
wasn't a matter of him not wanting it, but that it was a matter of priorities --which was one of his
favorite words...

Meanwhile, an Owl --who had very good eyes-- had been observing life in the jungle, and thought this
way: "Every time there's a dry season the little animals must come to the little dirty waterhole
where the Lion waits for them... Had they been well fed and strong, he would have had to run after
them and even risk resistance..."

And that's how the Owl landed an important --and well paid-- post in the brand new Astronomy
Department created by the King of the Jungle... to the effect of exploring life in other planets...

> > Subsidized prices, urban sprawl and poverty are as American as Coke...
>
> It's worse in other places. Also, whining and mischaracterizing the situation here in the United
> States doesn't merely fail to make your case, it undermines if not destroys it.

I know, it's so much worse in China and Bangla Desh...

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

 

[Chris Phillipo]

> >
> > Our nearby mines are filed with seawater so I doubt it, but the walls are made of coal so...
> > I would be interested to know what percentage of the population in Europe lives in stand alone
> > houses in rural areas compared to North America.
>
> The documentary was also of sea filled mines. The extensive depth of the mine works and the number
> of passages allowed warm water from deep levels to rise as heat was pumped out and the cooler
> water sank back down. It was a really good goethermal system for factories in an nearby industrial
> park whose major power costs was heating.
>

Well coal mines don't go that deep but if we had a diamond mine around here that would be great. It
would be nice to be sitting on hot springs like in Iceland where they have so much free energy even
heat the sidewalks, but we don't.

--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Ian St. John]

"Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> > >
> > > Our nearby mines are filed with seawater so I doubt it, but the walls are made of coal so...
> > > I would be interested to know what
percentage
> > > of the population in Europe lives in stand alone houses in rural areas compared to North
> > > America.
> >
> > The documentary was also of sea filled mines. The extensive depth of the mine works and the
> > number of passages allowed warm water from deep
levels to
> > rise as heat was pumped out and the cooler water sank back down. It was
a
> > really good goethermal system for factories in an nearby industrial park whose major power costs
> > was heating.
> >
>
> Well coal mines don't go that deep

I've just told you of an example that they go FAR ENOUGH. Open your ears. It is not steam power. It
is warm water for heat pumps.

> but if we had a diamond mine around here that would be great. It would be nice to be sitting
> on hot springs like in Iceland where they have so much free energy even heat the sidewalks,
> but we don't.

Stop dreaming of what you don't have and use what you HAVE.

Here. Since you are so clueless I will provide a reference.
http://www.geo-exchange.ca/en/Pdf/Springhill%20NS_Ropak%20Can%20Am%20Ltd%20F actory.pdf
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V23215C35

It took all of about a minute to find a reference with all the details I gave you. Sighhh.

You are a perfect example of the "Luddite by Apathy".

 

[Dave Simpson]

Don Quijote wrote:

> Yeah, of course, it's a matter of "priorities"...

To grown-ups it is, as well as refusal to continue making errors.

Dave Simpson

 

[Chris Phillipo]

> > > really good goethermal system for factories in an nearby industrial park whose major power
> > > costs was heating.
> > >
> >
> > Well coal mines don't go that deep
>
> I've just told you of an example that they go FAR ENOUGH. Open your ears. It is not steam power.
> It is warm water for heat pumps.
>

And I've just told you that no one if going to go diging mines for the express purpose of doing this
stuff while there's still oil to burn. I don't read with my ears, by the way.

> > but if we had a diamond mine around here that would be great. It would be nice to be sitting on
> > hot springs like in Iceland where they have so much free energy even heat the sidewalks, but we
> > don't.
>
> Stop dreaming of what you don't have and use what you HAVE.
>
> Here. Since you are so clueless I will provide a reference.
> http://www.geo-exchange.ca/en/Pdf/Springhill%20NS_Ropak%20Can%20Am%20Ltd%20F actory.pdf
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?V23215C35
>

Umm, tell me exactly a company using free electricity to power heat pumps in Springhill has to do
with me here in Cape Breton? Find that one on google for me will ya?

--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Ian St. John]

"Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > > > really good goethermal system for factories in an nearby industrial
park
> > > > whose major power costs was heating.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well coal mines don't go that deep
> >
> > I've just told you of an example that they go FAR ENOUGH. Open your
ears. It
> > is not steam power. It is warm water for heat pumps.
> >
>
> And I've just told you that no one if going to go diging mines for the express purpose of doing
> this stuff while there's still oil to burn. I don't read with my ears, by the way.

[Chris] "Our nearby mines are filed with seawater so I doubt it, but the walls are made of coal
so... "

Why would you dig mines when you have already claimed to have similar coal mines in your area.

>
> > > but if we had a diamond mine around here that would be great. It would be nice to be sitting
> > > on hot
springs
> > > like in Iceland where they have so much free energy even heat the sidewalks, but we don't.
> >
> > Stop dreaming of what you don't have and use what you HAVE.
> >
> > Here. Since you are so clueless I will provide a reference.
> >
http://www.geo-exchange.ca/en/Pdf/Springhill%20NS_Ropak%20Can%20Am%20Ltd%20F
> > actory.pdf http://makeashorterlink.com/?V23215C35
> >
>
> Umm, tell me exactly a company using free electricity to power heat pumps in Springhill has to do
> with me here in Cape Breton?

SImilar problems. Similar opportunities. Similar solutions.

> Find that one on google for me will ya?

Why. You have shown that you can ignore even the most obvious logic.
>
> --
> _________________________
> Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> "Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > > > > really good goethermal system for factories in an nearby industrial
> park
> > > > > whose major power costs was heating.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well coal mines don't go that deep
> > >
> > > I've just told you of an example that they go FAR ENOUGH. Open your
> ears. It
> > > is not steam power. It is warm water for heat pumps.
> > >
> >
> > And I've just told you that no one if going to go diging mines for the express purpose of doing
> > this stuff while there's still oil to burn. I don't read with my ears, by the way.
>
> [Chris] "Our nearby mines are filed with seawater so I doubt it, but the walls are made of coal
> so... "
>
> Why would you dig mines when you have already claimed to have similar coal mines in your area.
>

The coal mines in our area are filled with 4 degree sea water, they are open to the ocean, if you
want to try and heat your home with that be my guest. For that matter, try heating your home with 18
degree water when the outside temperature is -25. Good luck there too. There's no free lunch.
Except, as I said, in Iceland.

--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Ian St. John]

"Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> >
> > "Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > > > > really good goethermal system for factories in an nearby
industrial
> > park
> > > > > > whose major power costs was heating.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well coal mines don't go that deep
> > > >
> > > > I've just told you of an example that they go FAR ENOUGH. Open your
> > ears. It
> > > > is not steam power. It is warm water for heat pumps.
> > > >
> > >
> > > And I've just told you that no one if going to go diging mines for the express purpose of
> > > doing this stuff while there's still oil to burn.
I
> > > don't read with my ears, by the way.
> >
> > [Chris] "Our nearby mines are filed with seawater so I doubt it, but the walls are made of coal
> > so... "
> >
> > Why would you dig mines when you have already claimed to have similar
coal
> > mines in your area.
> >
>
> The coal mines in our area are filled with 4 degree sea water, they are open to the ocean, if you
> want to try and heat your home with that be my guest. For that matter, try heating your home with
> 18 degree water when the outside temperature is -25. Good luck there too. There's no free lunch.
> Except, as I said, in Iceland.

Learn somehting about heat pumps. Learn something about your mines ( not the surface layer )

If you do this and suddently realise what an asshole post you made, then maybe we can talk sensibly.

Otherwise I will have to write you off as too dumb to understand the idea.

 

[Don Quijote]

> As the article points out, developing areas are experiencing the same pattern of increased
> pollution that currently developed countries went through in the past. As these countries
> increase their level of wealth, they will presumably be able to afford tighter pollution
> controls...just as we did.

America, with 5% of the world population, produces 25% of world pollution. By the time the poor
countries reach that "wealth"--if they ever do--they will produce 5 times more pollution. I hope
they don't "develop"...

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

 

[Don Quijote]

> And *that* is why the US is right to reject Kyoto: It is better to do nothing than to do the
> wrong thing.

And it's better to do *something* than to do nothing at all, don't you think? Why don't you come up
with some sort of Washington Protocol for the environment--tailor-made to you if you will--and push
it down the throat on poor, polluting countries, the way you know best? I would join that Army...

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

 

[Don Quijote]

> > I find the act of emitting toxic constiuents into the air in the form of automobile exhaust to
> > be unacceptable
>
> In order to punish you for your hypocrisy, as soon as I'm done posting this article, I'm going
> down to the car park, start up my truck, turn on the air conditioner and high-beam lights, and do
> nothing but rev the engine for fifteen minutes while listening to Bach on the CD player.

I'd suggest you hook up a hose to the exhaust pipe and stick it inside the vehicle. It should be
painless, and Bach music should provide a beautiful background for a glorious departure. Ah, don't
forget to run it on little gas, so it'll cut off like in a couple of hours...

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > And *that* is why the US is right to reject Kyoto: It is better to do nothing than to do the
> > wrong thing.
>
> And it's better to do *something* than to do nothing at all, don't you think? Why don't you come
> up with some sort of Washington Protocol for the environment--tailor-made to you if you
> will--and push it down the throat on poor, polluting countries, the way you know best? I would
> join that Army...
>
> http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote
>

I can see it now, one line: "Buy more oil, at least it's cleaner than coal."
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Don Quijote]

> > I made a somewhat spurious comment that auto exhaust, if as claimed are so harmless that they be
> > directed to the passenger compartment of autos. And offered the ipinion that I find the act of
> > emitting toxic constiuents into the air in the form of automobile exhaust to be unacceptable
>
> Ok, you find it unacceptable. What does this *mean*?
>
> Do you simply find it unacceptable personally, and therefore never use a car?
>
> Do you think that legislation should be passed outlawing the use of automobiles for any reason?
>
> Or something in between?

Something in between...

Options is what we need, from bicycles to bullet trains...

(recently posted as "What's the solution to Terrorism?"

I'm at the same time pessimistic and optimist...

The pessimism is that destruction may happen any time...

The optimism is that a solution is really around the corner and it may come as either the
enlightenment of our leaders (not all must be stupid, or sold out, are they?) or as a campaign of
nonviolence.

Say, if we had an enlightened leader, he may think like this...

(Source: World Press Review, letters)

Yes, we need to fight a war, but no, the enemy is not Iraq... The enemy is oil with 65+ percent of
the known oil reserves in the politically unstable, "Death to America"-chanting Middel East. Imagine
the advances the United States could make to world stability and developing domestic employment
opportunities if it spent the $79+ billion Congress recently approved for Bush's Iraq war on
alternative energy subsidies and investment. Might this be a better way to fight terrorism, support
our troops, and regain world favor?

Jay Lustgarten San Anselmo, California

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

 

[Don Quijote]

> >So by their estimation, it was worse on one large island in the late 19th century than it
> >is today.
>
> Yup. The point has been proven for one state in recent time and one island for a much longer
> period. All evidence provided shows that the air is cleaner now that 100 years ago, as was the
> claim. Nothing has been provided that contradicts the claim.
>
> If you want to present something that contradicts the claim, please do so. However the multiple
> cites show (in the absence of any other information) a trend that we have no reason to doubt.

The air is now cleaner than at the time of the dinosaurs. Human beings are a race chosen by God to
conquer and multiply. If you got evidence of the opposite, please state it here. I rest my case...

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

 

[Ian St. John]

"Don Quijote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > As the article points out, developing areas are experiencing the same pattern of increased
> > pollution that currently developed countries went through in the past. As these countries
> > increase their level of wealth, they will presumably be able to afford tighter pollution
> > controls...just as we did.
>
> America, with 5% of the world population, produces 25% of world pollution. By the time the poor
> countries reach that "wealth"--if they ever do--they will produce 5 times more pollution. I hope
> they don't "develop"...

Typical right wing asshole. Pollution is NOT tied to development. Many of the technologies we have
today are MUCH less that 5% as polluting as the original. Their is a wide variation. And with
recycling as practiced in Europe with an eye to sustainable economics the resources are not wasted
in landfills but used over again so an arbitrarily large population can be 'wealthy' with no more
impact on the envrionment than today, or even less if we use our brains ( something the right wing
is loathe to do ).

 

[Ian St. John]

"Don Quijote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > >So by their estimation, it was worse on one large island in the late
19th
> > >century than it is today.
> >
> > Yup. The point has been proven for one state in recent time and one
island
> > for a much longer period. All evidence provided shows that the air is cleaner now that 100 years
> > ago, as was the claim. Nothing has been provided that contradicts the claim.
> >
> > If you want to present something that contradicts the claim, please do
so.
> > However the multiple cites show (in the absence of any other
information) a
> > trend that we have no reason to doubt.
>
> The air is now cleaner than at the time of the dinosaurs.

That would be interesting if true, but it was a different planet back then and I don't think the
dinosaurs were smart enough to do anything about their situation. Hopefully humans are smarter than
the pea brained dinosaurs.

> Human beings are a race chosen by God to conquer and multiply.

Actually this kind of religious rant usually applies only to specific religous worships, not the
general mass of humanity.

> If you got evidence of the opposite, please state it here. I rest my case...

The only case you have is your luggage. Move on.

>
> http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

 

[Ian St. John]

"Don Quijote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > > I made a somewhat spurious comment that auto exhaust, if as claimed
are
> > >so harmless that they be directed to the passenger compartment of
autos.
> > >And offered the ipinion that I find the act of emitting toxic
constiuents
> > >into the air in the form of automobile exhaust to be unacceptable
> >
> > Ok, you find it unacceptable. What does this *mean*?
> >
> > Do you simply find it unacceptable personally, and therefore never use a car?
> >
> > Do you think that legislation should be passed outlawing the use of automobiles for any reason?
> >
> > Or something in between?

Econmics is about cost/benefit ratios. The reason we need government is that those cost/beenfit
ratios can be skewed by dumping into a 'commons' of some of the costs. We need an economics which
retains the true cost/benefit ratio by legislating the costs of pollution to those who would try to
gain from the distortions, i.e. the pollution source. Corporations, device, whatever.

>
> Something in between...
>
> Options is what we need, from bicycles to bullet trains...

Exactly. The way to maximize the economy and minimise the costs is to ensure a wide range of options
to suit the specifics of the situation. Bicycles may be non-polluting but they are not always
practical, etc.

>
> (recently posted as "What's the solution to Terrorism?"
>
> I'm at the same time pessimistic and optimist...
>
> The pessimism is that destruction may happen any time...
>
> The optimism is that a solution is really around the corner and it may come as either the
> enlightenment of our leaders (not all must be stupid, or sold out, are they?) or as a campaign of
> nonviolence.

Don't count on an enlightened leaders. Benevolent dictatorships are rare. Only the people can demand
good government as their right.

>
> Say, if we had an enlightened leader, he may think like this...
>
> (Source: World Press Review, letters)
>
> Yes, we need to fight a war, but no, the enemy is not Iraq... The enemy is oil with 65+ percent of
> the known oil reserves in the politically unstable, "Death to America"-chanting Middel East.
> Imagine the advances the United States could make to world stability and developing domestic
> employment opportunities if it spent the $79+ billion Congress recently approved for Bush's Iraq
> war on alternative energy subsidies and investment. Might this be a better way to fight terrorism,
> support our troops, and regain world favor?

I doubt if Americans care much about regaining world favor. They enjoy being the 'poor abused
masters' and I think secretly revel in their newfound pariah status.

The investments would probably exceed the 100B war but not the $350B giveaway to the rich. Many of
the investments, such as converting 30-35% thermal efficiency coal plants to 50+% thermal efficiency
plants would make a HUGE difference and pay back in periods of less than a decade ( long before the
national debt is touched. ). Cogeneration and district heating from power plant 'waste heat' would
increase efficiency even more. Being less polluting, they could offset the costs of scrubbing by
selling the 'waste' heat productively and efficiently. All it takes are a few rational people and a
system that doesn't worship conflict but allows for cooperation. The 'rugged individualist' rarely
creates anything of lasting beauty or utility. We developed societies because of their superiority
to the savage.

>
> Jay Lustgarten San Anselmo, California
>
> http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

 

[Matthew Russott]

In article <[email protected]>, Don Quijote
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> So by their estimation, it was worse on one large island in the late 19th century than it is
>> today. Unless, of course, they are only talking about sulphur and particulates, which were the
>> bane of the coal age, while ignoring the other, less visible, pollutants we still produce in
>> great quantity today.
>
>Oh, how much we owe to the automobile, particularly the big fat American automobile. England may
>still be coughing in their coal fumes, had we not invented the V8. Now it's totally odorless,
>cough-free, poisonous gas...

Look up "coal gas". Then look up "catalytic converter".

Don keeps on tilting, but the windmill keeps on winning...
--
Matthew T. Russotto [email protected] "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and
moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue." But extreme restriction of liberty in pursuit of a
modicum of security is a very expensive vice.

 

[Don Quijote]

> So by their estimation, it was worse on one large island in the late 19th century than it is
> today. Unless, of course, they are only talking about sulphur and particulates, which were the
> bane of the coal age, while ignoring the other, less visible, pollutants we still produce in great
> quantity today.

Oh, how much we owe to the automobile, particularly the big fat American automobile. England may
still be coughing in their coal fumes, had we not invented the V8. Now it's totally odorless,
cough-free, poisonous gas...

Danger In The Air! Air Pollutants

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Carbon Monoxide

Carbon monoxide is a odorless, poisonous gas. It is created when gasoline does not completely burn.
60 million metric tons of carbon monoxide gets put into the air each year in the United States.
Carbon monoxide can harm cells which obtain oxygen through hemoglobin in a blood pigment. Hemoglobin
prefers carbon monoxide to oxygen.

Ozone or photochemical smog is created when two primary pollutants, hydrocarbons (toxic compounds
found in fossil fuels) and nitrogen oxides (gases produced by high temperatures and emitted from
vehicles), react with sunlight. In the upper atmosphere ozone protects us from the sun's ultra
violet rays. Lower in the atmosphere ozone is caused by a photochemical reaction with sunlight. Smog
is an accumulation of brown, hazy fumes, that will irritate the eyes and lungs, lowers resistance to
colds, can impair athletic performance, causes damage to our lungs, affects individuals with hear
and lung diseases, and causes damage to plant life. Particulates are small solid particles like
soot, dust, bits of metal, rubber and other material, and liquid droplets that are suspended in the
air. The dispersal of airborne particulates in the atmosphere because of human activity has become a
concern because of health related problems to living things.

full text...

http://www-k12.atmos.washington.edu/k12/pilot/danger_in_air/pollutants.html

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> "Don Quijote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > > >So by their estimation, it was worse on one large island in the late
> 19th
> > > >century than it is today.
> > >
> > > Yup. The point has been proven for one state in recent time and one
> island
> > > for a much longer period. All evidence provided shows that the air is cleaner now that 100
> > > years ago, as was the claim. Nothing has been provided that contradicts the claim.
> > >
> > > If you want to present something that contradicts the claim, please do
> so.
> > > However the multiple cites show (in the absence of any other
> information) a
> > > trend that we have no reason to doubt.
> >
> > The air is now cleaner than at the time of the dinosaurs.
>
> That would be interesting if true, but it was a different planet back then and I don't think the
> dinosaurs were smart enough to do anything about their situation. Hopefully humans are smarter
> than the pea brained dinosaurs.
>

You think at this point in time humans could really do something about a meteor the size of
Rhode Island? All this greenie ranting sure is going to seem pretty silly when the next
apocalypse gets here...
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com