Cheap Gas=Unnatural Capitalism



Status
Not open for further replies.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> "Don Quijote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > > As the article points out, developing areas are experiencing the same pattern of increased
> > > pollution that currently developed countries went through in the past. As these countries
> > > increase their level of wealth, they will presumably be able to afford tighter pollution
> > > controls...just as we did.
> >
> > America, with 5% of the world population, produces 25% of world pollution. By the time the poor
> > countries reach that "wealth"--if they ever do--they will produce 5 times more pollution. I hope
> > they don't "develop"...
>
> Typical right wing asshole. Pollution is NOT tied to development. Many of the technologies we have
> today are MUCH less that 5% as polluting as the original. Their is a wide variation. And with
> recycling as practiced in Europe with an eye to sustainable economics the resources are not wasted
> in landfills but used over again so an arbitrarily large population can be 'wealthy' with no more
> impact on the envrionment than today, or even less if we use our brains ( something the right wing
> is loathe to do ).

So even though the population has tripled, the amount of polution has only doubled. That's not what
I would call a solution.

--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
 
"Ian St. John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Don Quijote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > > > I made a somewhat spurious comment that auto exhaust, if as claimed
> are
> > > >so harmless that they be directed to the passenger compartment of
> autos.
> > > >And offered the ipinion that I find the act of emitting toxic
> constiuents
> > > >into the air in the form of automobile exhaust to be unacceptable
> > >
> > > Ok, you find it unacceptable. What does this *mean*?
> > >
> > > Do you simply find it unacceptable personally, and therefore never use a car?
> > >
> > > Do you think that legislation should be passed outlawing the use of automobiles for any
> > > reason?
> > >
> > > Or something in between?
>
> Econmics is about cost/benefit ratios. The reason we need government is that those cost/beenfit
> ratios can be skewed by dumping into a 'commons' of some of the costs. We need an economics which
> retains the true cost/benefit ratio by legislating the costs of pollution to those who would try
> to gain from the distortions, i.e. the pollution source. Corporations, device, whatever.
>
> >
> > Something in between...
> >
> > Options is what we need, from bicycles to bullet trains...
>
> Exactly. The way to maximize the economy and minimise the costs is to ensure a wide range of
> options to suit the specifics of the situation. Bicycles may be non-polluting but they are not
> always practical, etc.
>
> >
> > (recently posted as "What's the solution to Terrorism?"
> >
> > I'm at the same time pessimistic and optimist...
> >
> > The pessimism is that destruction may happen any time...
> >
> > The optimism is that a solution is really around the corner and it may come as either the
> > enlightenment of our leaders (not all must be stupid, or sold out, are they?) or as a campaign
> > of nonviolence.
>
> Don't count on an enlightened leaders. Benevolent dictatorships are rare. Only the people can
> demand good government as their right.
>
> >
> > Say, if we had an enlightened leader, he may think like this...
> >
> > (Source: World Press Review, letters)
> >
> > Yes, we need to fight a war, but no, the enemy is not Iraq... The enemy is oil with 65+ percent
> > of the known oil reserves in the politically unstable, "Death to America"-chanting Middel East.
> > Imagine the advances the United States could make to world stability and developing domestic
> > employment opportunities if it spent the $79+ billion Congress recently approved for Bush's Iraq
> > war on alternative energy subsidies and investment. Might this be a better way to fight
> > terrorism, support our troops, and regain world favor?
>
> I doubt if Americans care much about regaining world favor. They enjoy being the 'poor abused
> masters' and I think secretly revel in their newfound pariah status.

That's so good, 'poor abused masters.' Is it a kind of masochism? Americans are the only people I
know about who don't want health care, education or a clean environment. Nah, the other people are
probably envious of them...

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote
 
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:20:15 -0300, Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> from
Ramsay's wrote:

>You think at this point in time humans could really do something about a meteor the size of
>Rhode Island?

Bruce Willis did.

--
http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace What I need is a MATURE RELATIONSHIP with a
FLOPPY DISK ...
1:37:59 PM 15 July 2003
 
In article <[email protected]>, Kevan Smith
<[email protected]/\/\> says...
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:20:15 -0300, Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> from
> Ramsay's wrote:
>
> >You think at this point in time humans could really do something about a meteor the size of Rhode
> >Island?
>
> Bruce Willis did.
>

Ok you set the charges, I'm going to go find Liv Tyler.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
 
"Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> >
> > "Don Quijote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > > >So by their estimation, it was worse on one large island in the
late
> > 19th
> > > > >century than it is today.
> > > >
> > > > Yup. The point has been proven for one state in recent time and one
> > island
> > > > for a much longer period. All evidence provided shows that the air
is
> > > > cleaner now that 100 years ago, as was the claim. Nothing has been provided that contradicts
> > > > the claim.
> > > >
> > > > If you want to present something that contradicts the claim, please
do
> > so.
> > > > However the multiple cites show (in the absence of any other
> > information) a
> > > > trend that we have no reason to doubt.
> > >
> > > The air is now cleaner than at the time of the dinosaurs.
> >
> > That would be interesting if true, but it was a different planet back
then
> > and I don't think the dinosaurs were smart enough to do anything about
their
> > situation. Hopefully humans are smarter than the pea brained dinosaurs.
> >
>
> You think at this point in time humans could really do something about a meteor the size of
> Rhode Island?

Depends on how far ahead we saw it. A very small push over a long time will do wonders. We already
have most of the near earth crossing asteroids mapped. Comets are harder to predict. A comet might
come in at any time. Seeing them ahead of time will probably depend on them pointing at earth on the
return route after the show.

If you are looking up and wonder what that bright flash is, you are now going down in history as no
brighter than the dinosaur. In fact, many posters here have a similarity, being unable to use their
'time binding' ability. It is time binding that allows us to plant seed the next season, and to
predict the outcome of actions, or even the risks of natural events.

> All this greenie ranting sure is going to seem pretty silly when the next apocalypse gets here...

You, for example, seem to be a dinosaur.
 
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:15:50 -0300, Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> from
Ramsay's wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Kevan Smith
><[email protected]/\/\> says...
>> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:20:15 -0300, Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> from
>> Ramsay's wrote:
>>
>> >You think at this point in time humans could really do something about a meteor the size of
>> >Rhode Island?
>>
>> Bruce Willis did.
>>
>
>Ok you set the charges, I'm going to go find Liv Tyler.

You can have her ... she needs to work out more to flatten that tummy.

--
http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace Hmmm ... a PINHEAD, during an EARTHQUAKE,
encounters an ALL-MIDGET FIDDLE ORCHESTRA ... ha ... ha ...
5:10:05 PM 15 July 2003
 
Don Quijote wrote:

> > And *that* is why the US is right to reject Kyoto: It is better to do nothing than to do the
> > wrong thing.

> And it's better to do *something* than to do nothing at all, don't you think?

Not the wrong thing. That is pathological (diseased).

Dave Simpson
 
> > > and I don't think the dinosaurs were smart enough to do anything about
> their
> > > situation. Hopefully humans are smarter than the pea brained dinosaurs.
> > >
> >
> > You think at this point in time humans could really do something about a meteor the size of
> > Rhode Island?
>
> Depends on how far ahead we saw it. A very small push over a long time will do wonders. We already
> have most of the near earth crossing asteroids mapped. Comets are harder to predict. A comet might
> come in at any time. Seeing them ahead of time will probably depend on them pointing at earth on
> the return route after the show.

I'm not saying we don't have the technology to deal with it, I'm saying the human race at this point
in time could not deal with it. We have the technology to solve world hunger but you don't see that
disappearing anytime soon. The USA can't even get it's shuttle fleet re certified to fly right now
and 3 out of 5 missions to mars have missed the planet or crashed, I wouldn't count on a discovery
channel perfect solution or a hollywood ending even if we do discover that rock 5 years out.

>
> If you are looking up and wonder what that bright flash is, you are now going down in history as
> no brighter than the dinosaur. In fact, many posters here have a similarity, being unable to use
> their 'time binding' ability. It is time binding that allows us to plant seed the next season, and
> to predict the outcome of actions, or even the risks of natural events.

I don't know how much solice I would take in knowing what killed me. Although it is a bit of a
cliche to say "He never knew what hit him.".

--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
 
> >> >You think at this point in time humans could really do something about a meteor the size of
> >> >Rhode Island?
> >>
> >> Bruce Willis did.
> >>
> >
> >Ok you set the charges, I'm going to go find Liv Tyler.
>
> You can have her ... she needs to work out more to flatten that tummy.
>

I can help her with that.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
 
>> Depends on how far ahead we saw it. A very small push over a long time will do wonders. We
>> already have most of the near earth crossing asteroids mapped. Comets are harder to predict. A
>> comet might come in at any time. Seeing them ahead of time will probably depend on them pointing
>> at earth on the return route after the show.

I am always amazed at statements like this. With just a little logic, one can quickly understand
that it is not possible to state that we have most of the near Earth asteroids mapped, as mapping
them requires us to first identify them. If we have not identified even one asteroid, meteor or
other object, it might not matter how many we have mapped.

And then to state that seeing a comet ahead of time will depend on them pointing at Earth after it
circles the sun is just ingenious. Since it can strike Earth in two possible positions, approaching
the sun or leaving the area near the sun, seeing it afterwards is not sufficient. However, since
most near circular and elliptical orbit comets have been observed, we need only worry about locating
more hyperbolic orbit comets, and they would be seen pretty easily as they heat up on approach.

Magazines like Discover seem to have destroyed our ability to understand science more than anything.
 
"DTJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:eek:[email protected]...
> >> Depends on how far ahead we saw it. A very small push over a long time
will
> >> do wonders. We already have most of the near earth crossing asteroids mapped. Comets are harder
> >> to predict. A comet might come in at any
time.
> >> Seeing them ahead of time will probably depend on them pointing at
earth on
> >> the return route after the show.
>
> I am always amazed at statements like this.

And yet there is nothing wrong with any of them.

> With just a little logic, one can quickly understand that it is not possible to state that we have
> most of the near Earth asteroids mapped, as mapping them requires us to first identify them.

With a little intelligence once can say how much sky we have surveyed and what the results were,
or even test the rate of discovery to see what proportion of the total we have found
approximately. One does not have to be all that smart to understand these things. It is a rather
common scientific method.

> If we have not identified even one asteroid, meteor or other object, it might not matter how many
> we have mapped.

True. But it become much less likley that we can be 'blindsided'. Up to now we usually found them
when they were passed or whizzing by, which was not very satisfactory. The drive to map all of the
NEO objects has been fairly fruitful.

>
> And then to state that seeing a comet ahead of time will depend on them pointing at Earth after it
> circles the sun is just ingenious.

Nope. More or less a good estimate of our abilities to spot them.

> Since it can strike Earth in two possible positions, approaching the sun or leaving the area near
> the sun, seeing it afterwards is not sufficient.

Never said it was. If we have a comet coming in on the entry side of the swingby, you can pretty
well kiss your ass goodbye because only a miracle would allow us to see it in time to do anything
else. We have a much better chance if the earth crossing is on the return trip and we see it during
the approach and swingaround.

> However, since most near circular and elliptical orbit comets have been observed, we need only
> worry about locating more hyperbolic orbit comets, and they would be seen pretty easily as they
> heat up on approach.

They have to be eliptical enough to cross earths orbit. That pretty much rules out any
circular orbit.

>
> Magazines like Discover seem to have destroyed our ability to understand science more than
> anything.

Yes. You are a good example of that. For example, this post is mostly about you ignoring what I
actually stated for some illogic you created in your own head.
 
> So what would you say if a right-wing organization did the same for the true costs of riding
> bicycles? Trains get the same fuel economy as cars (and take it with the CBO if you disagree),
> and on a btu-per-passenger-mile basis, cars are better than transit buses. Only long-distance
> buses quite well.
>
> As for bicycles, you should pay for your own private roads with a $500 per year bicycle fee.

Unless you are a *misanthropist*, cars don't make sense (most of the time)...

"The best option is to have options"

"The bottom line is this: investment in public transportation makes dollars, and it makes sense. The
benefits to motorists, to businesses, to transit riders, and to American society as a whole far
outweigh the costs."

Something to Think About The Economics of Public Transportation: Three Major Findings :

While transit is clearly a boon to the people who use it, even larger benefits accrue to motorists,
businesses, and society in general. Given flexibility in how they develop their transportation
investment strategies, more and more areas — central cities, suburbs, and smaller towns and villages
— are choosing to make public transit an essential component of their strategic transportation
investment portfolio. In those areas where such strategic investments in transit have been made,
ridership has grown, and the economic benefits to those communities have risen accordingly. The
market for transit is there, but the Nation's transportation strategies must be geared to tap into
that market.

If you feel like you've been spending more time in traffic jams, you've got lots of company. All
across America, in big cities, in suburbs, and in smaller towns, traffic is up, and congestion is up
a lot more. And it's going to get worse, since relatively small increases in traffic can cause
really huge increases in congestion. According to the U.S. Department of Transportation, in 50
metropolitan areas the number of hours per capita that people spend delayed by traffic congestion
increased 95% from 1982 to 1993, 1 even though the number of trips that people made increased by
only 16.9%. 2 (see "How Congestion Works" )

In Los Angeles, that amounted to an annual cost (again, per capita) of $710. One might say, "Come
on, that's Los Angeles, what did you expect?" Well, it's also Houston ($680), Seattle ($720),
Atlanta ($590), Boston ($520) and Miami ($560). If you live in Nashville, you spent 2.2 times as
many hours stuck in congestion in 1993 than you did in 1982. In Kansas City and Sacramento, 2.85
times as many. In Columbus, 2.34. And in Salt Lake City, the time you spent on the road thinking
unkind thoughts about your fellow motorist increased 320%.

Now, hold that thought for a moment, and focus on this: for every dollar the American taxpayer
spends on supporting the Nation's public transportationa systems, the economic return on that
investment is at least four or five to one, and probably substantially more. And here's the kicker :
the people who benefit the most are motorists and society in general! This perhaps surprising result
is developed in Section 3 of this Report, and is summarized in Table 3 .

"Wait a minute," you say, "I drive, what's public transit got to do with me?" Glad you asked. Try to
imagine....

Another 5 million cars and 27,000 new lane miles of roads jammed into America's cities; Almost
200,000 more fatalities, injuries and accidents every year on the Nation's roads, at a cost in the
billions of dollars; Another four lanes (or maybe a second deck) on your local freeway, at untold
fiscal, environmental and aesthetic cost. Table 1 shows, for 90 urbanized areas, just how many cars
and new miles of freeway would be needed to replace public transit; Americans spending another 367
million hours each year sitting in traffic jams, at a cost to them and to the economy of more than
$19 billion. Not very pleasant to contemplate. Today, the situation on our Nation's freeways and
roads can be pretty bad. But it would be a whole lot worse without public transportation. Table 1
("Transit Relieves Traffic Congestion") shows what would happen to America's metropolitan networks
of freeways, highway and roads if they had to accommodate the millions of people who ride on public
transportation. The same Table provides dramatic evidence of how many America's metropolitan areas —
69 out of 90 shown — are choosing rail transit as an essential part of their multi-modal
transportation investment strategies.

"Anything that encourages people not to drive their cars into urban areas is good for the
environment and good for the health of cities. A dense mass-transit network should be one of
southern New England's selling points. And in particular, anything that links the Providence and
Fall River/New Bedford areas with Boston and its high-technology nexus bodes well for economic
development in southeastern New England."

Editorial The Providence Journal-Bulletin July 25, 1995

And yet, in statehouses and city halls across the land, and even in Congress, we can still hear the
"transit vs. highways" debate that has raged for more than 40 years. This report argues that we need
to set emotions aside and look at the numbers. When we do, the economic case for public
transportation, the "dollars and sense" of the issue, is undeniable.

Why We All Care So Much Ever notice how emotional a lot of discussions about transportation can get?
Ever wonder why? After all, the transportation system is just another part of daily life, just like
the electric utility, water, phone and postal systems. But electricity, water, phone calls and mail
generally just "show up" at our homes and businesses. Transportation, on the other hand, is
something that we all spend an awful lot of our time doing, and the experience is all too often time
consuming, expensive, and irritating — if not downright painful.

Like it or not, we spend hundreds of hours per year just getting to work and around town. That's
more time than we spend on vacation and a lot of other things that make life worth living. An
occasional power failure we can live with, but a transportation system that's overloaded is a
continuing irritant: it's negative effects are up close and personal, and they won't go away!

And here's another thing: few of us claim to be experts about public utilities or the postal system,
but we're all "transportation" experts by virtue of the fact that we spend so much time at it. So
when transportation "solutions" are discussed, we've all got a big personal stake in the subject,
plus our "expert" egos are on the line. Small wonder that much of the public debate on
transportation issues rarely differs from arguments about the subject down at the local tavern.

People are right to care so much about transportation, for it profoundly impacts the life of every
single American. But as Congress debates the reauthorization of the Intermodal Surface
Transportation Efficiency Act (the "ISTEA"), b it might be helpful to tone down the rhetoric and
take a look at the facts.

Beyond Rhetoric A sometimes heated "transit vs. highways" debate has raged ever since the interstate
system was a twinkle in President Eisenhower's eye. Ever since the passage of the Urban Mass
Transportation Act in 1964, critics of public transportation in America have tended to dismiss
transit's significance compared to the nation's systems of Interstates, freeways, and roads. Not
infrequently, public transit has been dismissed as little more than a highly subsidized social
welfare program designed primarily to serve the poor, the elderly, and the physically disabled.
Dismissing transit as being marginal to the "real business" of transportation, the allegation is
that highways are about economic development and jobs, transit is about welfare.

On the other side of the debate, transit's supporters have tended to demonize the highway system —
and sometimes highway engineers and builders — contending that they have destroyed the very fabric
of America's metropolitan areas, caused suburban and ex-urban sprawl, polluted the atmosphere, made
the country dangerously dependent on foreign oil, and generally reduced the quality of life for
many, if not most, Americans. In this view, cars and highways are THE ENEMY of both people and
communities, and transit is THE ANSWER to a better life for all Americans.

Whatever the merits on each side of this ideological chasm, the resulting rhetorical excesses have
often generated more heat than light, doing little to enhance the subtance or conduct of the public
discourse — whether in Congress or in the Nation's statehouses and city halls — about what mix of
transportation investments can best meet Americans' mobility needs in the 21st century.

"The efficient movement of goods and people is a crucial factor in ensuring our domestic and
international competitiveness: transportation now accounts for 17% of gross domestic product. Having
a variety of transportation methods available increases access to both new labor markets and
cost-effective goods shipment. Transportation efficiency can be achieved through a national
transportation plan that includes all modes of transport."

Business for Efficient Transportation Washington, D.C.

One issue that seems especially muddled relates to the economic return on the American taxpayer's
investment in the transportation arena. For better or worse, cars and trucks are just about
everywhere, and most people intuitively understand that America's economy depends on the
efficient and safe transport of people and goods on the country's nearly 4 million miles of
Interstate highways, urban freeways, and local streets and roads. But what most people don't know
is that the Nation's public transit systems play an essential part in making the overall
transportation system work.

This report tries to get beyond the rhetoric to look at the facts. The results may be
surprising to some:

In metropolitan cities and suburbs, and in rural towns and villages, the Nation's subways, light
rail lines, commuter rail systems, AMTRAK, and bus and paratransit systems are giving the taxpayers
more than their money's worth. While transit is clearly a boon to the people who use it, even larger
benefits accrue to motorists, businesses, and society in general. Transit makes the road system work
better; and transit plays a key role in helping America to be more competitive in the global
marketplace, in making more Americans more productive, in creating jobs, and in making our cities,
suburbs and towns better places to work and do business. In the past few years, state and local
decision-makers have had unprecedented flexibility to develop transportation investment strategies,
and public-private partnerships have sprung up in hundreds of places to bring a more businesslike,
no-nonsense approach to finding transportation solutions. The outcome is that more and more areas —
central cities, suburbs, and smaller towns and villages — are choosing to make public transit an
essential component of their strategic transportation investment portfolio. Businesses that make
strategic investments needed to offer quality products and services to the marketplace will tend to
prosper; those that don't will lose market share and fail. Public transit is no different: in those
areas where such investments have been made, ridership has grown, and the economic benefits to those
communities have risen accordingly. In other areas, where systems and services have been allowed to
deteriorate, transit use has declined. The market for transit is there, but the Nation's
transportation strategies must be geared to tap into that market. It's In the Mix "We have come to
the stark realization that a balanced working transportation solution must be multi-modal. In short,
we need to dramatically expand our local and express bus operations and build a modern light rail
system to complete our transportation network."

Honorable Peggy Bilsten Vice Mayor Phoenix, Arizona

The above referenced "mix" of transportation investments is key: it reflects a new way of thinking
about transportation strategies that has started to take root since, and to no small degree because
of, the passage of the Intermodal Transportation Systems Efficiency Act of 1991, commonly known as
the ISTEA. The ISTEA emphasizes a "systems approach" to transportation policy and investment (more
about that in a minute), with increased emphasis on the functionality and outcomes of different
transportation strategies. This approach recognizes that the transportation system has a lot to do
in getting people to work and goods to market, and in providing access to shopping, social, cultural
and recreational opportunities for every American. And it knows that the various "modes" of
transportation (e.g. highways and roads, rail and bus transit, freight railroads, etc.) all have a
part to play, and that they are all part of the bigger system.

"System" is one of those words that engineers (and sometimes marketing types) use to impress us
ordinary folk, but what does it mean in a transportation setting? It may help to think of an
electronic circuit which has a bunch of different components: transistors, resistors, capacitors,
inductors, and other widgets that make up the circuit. No one would argue that one type of component
is somehow more important than the others. Take out any one of them and the circuit won't work as
well, and may not work at all.

"The city of Phoenix and the surrounding communities continue to experience phenomenal growth in
population and economic development opportunities. We believe that mass transit, as a major
component of a balanced transportation system, is essential to meet these challenges."

Valerie Manning, President and CEO Phoenix Chamber of Commerce

It's the same with transportation. Whether we realize it or not, it all works together like an
electronic circuit, and the "components" of the circuit are the modes: you can't change one part
without changing it all.

Without its transit "component," the overall transportation system starts to break down. As we'll
see, transit is essential in the transportation mix for America. As we'll also see, it pays a
handsome return on investment to the taxpayer, to the business community, to the transit user, and
even to the motorist who never uses transit.

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote
 
<MASSIVE SNIP!!!>

Don: That post rocks. Why can't our governors, congress people, presidents get this stuff?

Thanks!

Scott
 
On 17 Jul 2003 10:36:49 -0700, [email protected] (Scott) wrote:

>Don: That post rocks. Why can't our governors, congress people, presidents get this stuff?

I agree. Very impressive. Has it been published somewhere?
 
"Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> <MASSIVE SNIP!!!>
>
> Don: That post rocks. Why can't our governors, congress people, presidents get this stuff?

No lobbyists to hand feed them the script. No big profits to be made from rationalising traffic. As
P.T. used to say there is a sucker born every minute and NOT being a sucker takes unpaid work
Corporate profits have never been increased by telling the suckers what the scam is.
 
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:44:30 -0400, "Ian St. John" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"DTJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:eek:[email protected]...
>> >> Depends on how far ahead we saw it. A very small push over a long time
>will
>> >> do wonders. We already have most of the near earth crossing asteroids mapped. Comets are
>> >> harder to predict. A comet might come in at any
>time.
>> >> Seeing them ahead of time will probably depend on them pointing at
>earth on
>> >> the return route after the show.
>>
>> I am always amazed at statements like this.
>
>And yet there is nothing wrong with any of them.

Saying "We already have most of the near earth crossing asteroids" is an opinion that you have, not
one that any reputable scientist has.

>> With just a little logic, one can quickly understand that it is not possible to state that we
>> have most of the near Earth asteroids mapped, as mapping them requires us to first identify them.
>
>With a little intelligence once can say how much sky we have surveyed and what the results were,
>or even test the rate of discovery to see what proportion of the total we have found
>approximately. One does not have to be all that smart to understand these things. It is a rather
>common scientific method.

Maybe you think your "accepted" method is accepted, but that is irrelevant. The fact remains that we
have examined a very small percentage of our solar system, we have concentrated on the area where
the planets orbit, and we have no idea if there might be heavy concentrations somewhere.

Further, a lot of material comes from the Oort cloud, which we can not see. The gravity of the sun
and Jovian planets pull in new material all the time.

Your incredibly pompous view of your intelligence notwithstanding, you are wrong.

>> If we have not identified even one asteroid, meteor or other object, it might not matter how many
>> we have mapped.
>
>True. But it become much less likley that we can be 'blindsided'. Up to now we usually found them
>when they were passed or whizzing by, which was not very satisfactory. The drive to map all of the
>NEO objects has been fairly fruitful.

Correction, the drive to map SOME objects has been fruitful.

>> And then to state that seeing a comet ahead of time will depend on them pointing at Earth after
>> it circles the sun is just ingenious.
>
>Nope. More or less a good estimate of our abilities to spot them.

But as wrong as could possibly be.

>> However, since most near circular and elliptical orbit comets have been observed, we need only
>> worry about locating more hyperbolic orbit comets, and they would be seen pretty easily as they
>> heat up on approach.
>
>They have to be eliptical enough to cross earths orbit. That pretty much rules out any
>circular orbit.

Idiot.

>> Magazines like Discover seem to have destroyed our ability to understand science more than
>> anything.
>
>Yes. You are a good example of that. For example, this post is mostly about you ignoring what I
>actually stated for some illogic you created in your own head.

Nope. I have more knowledge of physics and astronomy than you could ever hope to learn.
 
"DTJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:44:30 -0400, "Ian St. John" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"DTJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:eek:[email protected]...
> >> >> Depends on how far ahead we saw it. A very small push over a long
time
> >will
> >> >> do wonders. We already have most of the near earth crossing
asteroids
> >> >> mapped. Comets are harder to predict. A comet might come in at any
> >time.
> >> >> Seeing them ahead of time will probably depend on them pointing at
> >earth on
> >> >> the return route after the show.
> >>
> >> I am always amazed at statements like this.
> >
> >And yet there is nothing wrong with any of them.
>
> Saying "We already have most of the near earth crossing asteroids" is an opinion that you have,
> not one that any reputable scientist has.

Is that your 'opinion'? Statistical studies on size and discovery rate, along with size distribution
can give a fairly good idea of what is there to discover. Of course, this mgiht not be covered in
**** and Janes reader...

>
> >> With just a little logic, one can quickly understand that it is not possible to state that we
> >> have most of the near Earth asteroids mapped, as mapping them requires us to first identify
> >> them.
> >
> >With a little intelligence once can say how much sky we have surveyed and what the results were,
> >or even test the rate of discovery to see what proportion of the total we have found
> >approximately. One does not have to
be
> >all that smart to understand these things. It is a rather common
scientific
> >method.
>
> Maybe you think your "accepted" method is accepted, but that is irrelevant. The fact remains that
> we have examined a very small percentage of our solar system, we have concentrated on the area
> where the planets orbit, and we have no idea if there might be heavy concentrations somewhere.

Orbits are not quite as random as that. Many orbits are impossible because they would be 'kicked
out' eventually. Try to understand that many intelligent people have explored this area a bit better
than 'who knows??'.

>
> Further, a lot of material comes from the Oort cloud, which we can not see. The gravity of the sun
> and Jovian planets pull in new material all the time.

Yes. We call them COMETS, not asteroids. I have treated COMETS separately *because* they can occur
randomly. The reason they have a coma on passing the sun is because of the volatiles which are
present in Oort cloud objects (condensed cold and not exposed to heat ) while asteroids have no free
volatiles in general and are located within the orbit of Jupiter.

>
> Your incredibly pompous view of your intelligence notwithstanding, you are wrong.

I actually am smart but it doesn't take a genius to understand the basics.

>
> >> If we have not identified even one asteroid, meteor or other object, it might not matter how
> >> many we have mapped.
> >
> >True. But it become much less likley that we can be 'blindsided'. Up to
now
> >we usually found them when they were passed or whizzing by, which was not very satisfactory. The
> >drive to map all of the NEO objects has been
fairly
> >fruitful.
>
> Correction, the drive to map SOME objects has been fruitful.

Some being a large percentage of the total and with an emphasis on the larger objects.

>
> >> And then to state that seeing a comet ahead of time will depend on them pointing at Earth after
> >> it circles the sun is just ingenious.
> >
> >Nope. More or less a good estimate of our abilities to spot them.
>
> But as wrong as could possibly be.

Wrong. We have little chance of spotting a comet that is targetting us on the way in. Not enough
notice and too much speed.

>
> >> However, since most near circular and elliptical orbit comets have been observed, we need only
> >> worry about locating more hyperbolic orbit comets, and they would be seen pretty easily as
> >> they heat up on approach.
> >
> >They have to be eliptical enough to cross earths orbit. That pretty much rules out any
> >circular orbit.
>
> Idiot.

I agree. You are and you are proving it more and more as you dig yourself deeper.

>
> >> Magazines like Discover seem to have destroyed our ability to understand science more than
> >> anything.
> >
> >Yes. You are a good example of that. For example, this post is mostly
about
> >you ignoring what I actually stated for some illogic you created in your
own
> >head.
>
> Nope. I have more knowledge of physics and astronomy than you could ever hope to learn.

ROTFLMAO..

Thanks. I needed that...

You cannot even differentiate between asteroids and comets! Now you are an 'expert'??? LOL.

Your 'knowledge' obviously came from Discovery magazine or maybe the National Enquirer.
 
[email protected] (Scott) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> <MASSIVE SNIP!!!>
>
> Don: That post rocks. Why can't our governors, congress people, presidents get this stuff?
>
> Thanks!

Quite welcome.

It ain't so much that they don't get it, but that they ignore it...

Dozens of good ideas are sitting out there but they look the other way.

NATURAL CAPITALISM: CREATING THE NEXT INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION

For decades, environmentalists have been warning that human economic activity is exceeding the
planet's limits. Of course we keep pushing those limits back with clever new technologies; yet
living systems are undeniably in decline.

These trends need not be in conflict—in fact, there are fortunes to be made in reconciling them.

Natural Capitalism: Creating the Next Industrial Revolution, by Paul Hawken, Amory Lovins, and L.
Hunter Lovins, is the first book to explore the lucrative opportunities for businesses in an era of
approaching environmental limits.

In this groundbreaking blueprint for a new economy, three leading business visionaries explain how
the world is on the verge of a new industrial revolution—one that promises to transform our
fundamental notions about commerce and its role in shaping our future. Natural Capitalism describes
a future in which business and environmental interests increasingly overlap, and in which businesses
can better satisfy their customers' needs, increase profits, and help solve environmental problems
all at the same time.

Natural capital refers to the natural resources and ecosystem services that make possible all
economic activity, indeed all life. These services are of immense economic value; some are literally
priceless, since they have no known substitutes. Yet current business practices typically fail to
take into account the value of these assets—which is rising with their scarcity. As a result,
natural capital is being degraded and liquidated by the wasteful use of such resources as energy,
materials, water, fiber, and topsoil.

The first of natural capitalism's four interlinked principles, therefore, is radically increased
resource productivity. Implementing just this first principle can significantly improve a firm's
bottom line, and can also help finance the other three. They are: redesigning industry on biological
models with closed loops and zero waste; shifting from the sale of goods (for example, light bulbs)
to the provision of services (illumination); and reinvesting in the natural capital that is the
basis of future prosperity.

Citing hundreds of compelling stories from a wide array of sectors, Natural Capitalism shows how
these four changes will enable businesses to act as if natural capital were being properly valued,
without waiting for consensus on what that value should be. Even today, when natural capital is
hardly accounted for on corporate balance sheets, these four principles are so profitable that firms
adopting them can gain striking competitive advantage—as early adopters are already doing. These
innovators are also discovering that by downsizing their unproductive tons, gallons, and
kilowatt-hours they can keep more people, who will foster the innovation that drives future
improvement.

Natural Capitalism's preface states: "Although [this] is a book abounding in solutions, it is not
about 'fixes.' Nor is it a how-to manual. It is a portrayal of opportunities that if captured will
lead to no less than a transformation of commerce and of all societal institutions. Natural
capitalism maps the general direction of a journey that requires overturning long-held assumptions,
even questioning what we value and how we are to live. Yet the early stages in the decades-long
odyssey are turning out to release extraordinary benefits. Among these are what business innovator
Peter Senge calls 'hidden reserves within the enterprise'—'lost energy,' trapped in stale employee
and customer relationships, that can be channeled into success for both today's shareholders and
future generations. All three of us have witnessed this excitement and enhanced total factor
productivity in many of the businesses we have counseled. It is real; it is replicable…"

The next Industrial Revolution has already started. Natural Capitalism will prepare you to be a
part of it.

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote
 
Status
Not open for further replies.