Cheaper degreasers than Muc-off



In article <[email protected]>, Pete Biggs wrote:
>But I'll give Simon's hair shampoo idea a go now. Can we confirm there's
>no, or much less, salt in that?


Looking at three different shampoo bottles in my bathroom, they all
list sodium chloride in their ingredients list, but they don't give a
percentage.
 
Clive George wrote on 03/05/2007 21:51 +0100:
>
> Now given that SLS/ALS are ionic surfactants, can anybody tell me
> the difference?
>


One has had a fraudulent scare-mail circulated about it and the other
hasn't?


--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell
 
"Rob Morley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Having got through another litre of Muc-Off I set to wondering what
> the cheaper alternatives were. Best prospect I saw was £4 for 2L of
> Swarfega Oil & Grease Remover, which may even be soluble to form a
> similar strengh to Muc-Off
>
> http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=50166
>
> What do others use?
>
>

DERV :)


I get my lady wife to clean my bike. I honestly don't care what she uses -
just as long as it comes up good and shiny.

John www.wimmenbikecleeners.org Clayton
 
in message <[email protected]>, Nick Maclaren
('[email protected]') wrote:

>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Simon Brooke <[email protected]> writes:
> |>
> |> Hot water with a little squirt of hair shampoo. Car shampoo would be
> |> better but I don't keep it round the house. Don't use washing up
> |> detergent because it is high in salts which damage the surface of the
> |> paint.
>
> Do you have any evidence for that? I have reason to believe that it
> is somewhere between an urban myth and propaganda put out by the car
> shampoo manufacturers.


My winter bike, and my old mountain bike, both of which used to be cleaned
regularly using washing up liquid, have both lost their gloss to a greater
extent than my newer bikes that never have. But that could just be age.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

my other car is #<Subr-Car: #5d480>
;; This joke is not funny in emacs.
 
in message <[email protected]>, Nick Maclaren
('[email protected]') wrote:

>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tony Raven <[email protected]> writes:
> |> >
> |> > If you don't, I fail to see why the amount of salt in washing-up
> |> > liquids makes a significant difference to the corrosiveness of your
> |> > washing water.
> |>
> |> Tell you what Nick you wash your bike how you want.
>
> Well, I don't mind how you wash yours - do it in rose-water, if you
> like - but I have a moral objection to essentially false urban myths,
> and am going to continue to point out their falsehood whenever anyone
> repeats them.


OK: I do not know whether in fact there is more salt in modern washing up
liquid than in modern shampoos. Nor do I know whether the build up of salt
from washing bikes with a saltier solution really does significant damage
to paintwork. However, as the two liquids cost about the same and work
about the same, I shall continue to use the one which I believe to contain
least salt.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; It appears that /dev/null is a conforming XSL processor.
 
Quoting Tony Raven <[email protected]>:
>Nick Maclaren wrote on 03/05/2007 18:01 +0100:
>>If you don't, I fail to see why the amount of salt in washing-up
>>liquids makes a significant difference to the corrosiveness of your
>>washing water.

>Tell you what Nick you wash your bike how you want.


Would you take "Tell you what, Tony, you don't wear a helmet if you don't
want to" with an obvious subtext of "(but of course I'm right to wear
one)"?
--
OPTIONS=name:Kirsty,menustyle:C,female,lit_corridor,standout,time,showexp,hilit
e_pet,catname:Akane,dogname:Ryoga,fruit:eek:konomiyaki,pickup_types:"!$?=/,scores:
5 top/2 around,color,boulder:0,autoquiver,autodig,disclose:yiyayvygyc,pickup_bu
rden:burdened,!cmdassist,msg_window:reversed,!sparkle,horsename:Rumiko,showrace
 
David Damerell wrote on 03/05/2007 23:38 +0100:
> Quoting Tony Raven <[email protected]>:
>> Nick Maclaren wrote on 03/05/2007 18:01 +0100:
>>> If you don't, I fail to see why the amount of salt in washing-up
>>> liquids makes a significant difference to the corrosiveness of your
>>> washing water.

>> Tell you what Nick you wash your bike how you want.

>
> Would you take "Tell you what, Tony, you don't wear a helmet if you don't
> want to" with an obvious subtext of "(but of course I'm right to wear
> one)"?


No, it was becoming obvious that Nick was spoiling for an dispute and if
he washes his bike in detergent it is hardly likely to encourage the
passing of a mandatory law to wash your bike in detergent so why bother
encouraging him?

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Tony Raven <[email protected]> writes:
|>
|> No, it was becoming obvious that Nick was spoiling for an dispute and if
|> he washes his bike in detergent it is hardly likely to encourage the
|> passing of a mandatory law to wash your bike in detergent so why bother
|> encouraging him?

You are misrepresenting me AGAIN.

I was not prepared for you to get away with propagating an unscientific
urban myth, and claiming that it was based in science. Whether or not
washing liquid contains more salt than shampoo does not change the fact
that it makes essentially no difference - the majority of the corrosives
in your washing liquid (volatile and non-volatile) will come from the
tap water.

No, I do not wash my bicycle in detergent - I don't wash it! And you
have clearly missed the point that all washing up liquid and shampoo
(hair, car, pet or carpet) are detergent - usually the SAME one, too.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
 
On 03 May 2007 22:03 Alan Braggins wrote:
>
> Pete Biggs wrote:
>>
>> But I'll give Simon's hair shampoo idea a go now. Can we confirm
>> there's no, or much less, salt in that?

>
> Looking at three different shampoo bottles in my bathroom, they all
> list sodium chloride in their ingredients list, but they don't give a
> percentage.


<OT>

A few years back I bought some Boots shampoo which was (allegedly)
specially formulated for use after a day at the seaside, and stated
that it helped deal with salted hair. IIRC, third ingredient on the
list was sodium chloride.

</OT>

Earlier this year, Fenwick's Caravan Cleaner was recommended on this
group. Cheap, and stocked by Halfrauds. (That's recommended for
cleaning bikes, not as shampoo - but maybe someone uses it for that
and can comment?)

--
Tim Forcer [email protected]
The University of Southampton, UK

The University is not responsible for my opinions
 
Nick Maclaren wrote on 04/05/2007 08:56 +0100:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tony Raven <[email protected]> writes:
> |>
> |> No, it was becoming obvious that Nick was spoiling for an dispute and if
> |> he washes his bike in detergent it is hardly likely to encourage the
> |> passing of a mandatory law to wash your bike in detergent so why bother
> |> encouraging him?
>
> You are misrepresenting me AGAIN.
>
> I was not prepared for you to get away with propagating an unscientific
> urban myth, and claiming that it was based in science.


I think in your perpetual state of high dudgeon you should go back and
re-read what was written. Peter said that washing up liquid contains
salt. You disputed that and asked for evidence. I provided very clear
evidence that washing up liquid does contain significant amounts of salt
deliberately added at which you went off on a defensive tangent about
dilution and deionised rose water.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Tony Raven <[email protected]> writes:
|>
|> > I was not prepared for you to get away with propagating an unscientific
|> > urban myth, and claiming that it was based in science.
|>
|> I think in your perpetual state of high dudgeon you should go back and
|> re-read what was written. Peter said that washing up liquid contains
|> salt. You disputed that and asked for evidence.

Sigh. I think in your perpetual state of high dudgeon you should go back
and re-read what was written. Here is what was posted and what I asked
for evidence of:

In article <[email protected]>,
Simon Brooke <[email protected]> writes:
|>
|> Hot water with a little squirt of hair shampoo. Car shampoo would be better
|> but I don't keep it round the house. Don't use washing up detergent
|> because it is high in salts which damage the surface of the paint.

Simon Brooke (not any Peter) said that it was "high in salts which damage
the surface of the paint", and I asked for evidence (hoping for some both
for the "high" and the damage). It seems to be the case that there is no
such evidence, though it may indeed contain enough salt to count as
brackish when undiluted.

His decision to use the variant of sodium laureth sulphate that is more
likely to contain less salt (when they are equivalently priced) is
perfectly rational. That is not the point at issue.

|> I provided very clear
|> evidence that washing up liquid does contain significant amounts of salt
|> deliberately added at which you went off on a defensive tangent about
|> dilution and deionised rose water.

I also provided evidence that the maximum amount of a single trip across
salted roads would do FAR more damage than a huge number of washings,
salt from the washing-up liquid is LESS than the maximum amount from the
tap water (by 3:5, see www.dwi.gov.uk), that and that there were much
larger quantities of other corrosives in domestic water, too. You are
making a fuss about what is demonstrably a minor factor, and probably a
negligible one.

The situation is that there is no more evidence that using washing up
liquid instead of shampoo harms bicycles than there is that wearing a
helmet instead of a woolly cap protects against brain damage.

Sheesh.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
 
Nick Maclaren said the following on 04/05/2007 09:39:

> The situation is that there is no more evidence that using washing up
> liquid instead of shampoo harms bicycles than there is that wearing a
> helmet instead of a woolly cap protects against brain damage.


Sheesh indeed! This argument is getting quite incredible! Years ago I
had a car that I used to wash regularly with washing-up liquid. It
developed a fair amount of bodywork rust. Then I heard about salt in
washing-up liquid and stopped using it. I got another car from the same
manufacturer, of roughly the same age, used the same washing routine but
with car shampoo instead of washing-up liquid. No rust.

That'll do for me. Whether it's my car or my bike, I now use the
recommended products and everything comes up clean and corrosion-free.

De-ionised rosewater indeed ;-) FWIW, on my MTB I use Sh1t Shifter if
it's really mucky, otherwise just plain old tapwater and a brush.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
 
In article <[email protected]>, Tony Raven says...
> Clive George wrote on 03/05/2007 21:51 +0100:
> >
> > Now given that SLS/ALS are ionic surfactants, can anybody tell me
> > the difference?
> >

>
> One has had a fraudulent scare-mail circulated about it and the other
> hasn't?
>
>
>

Or, one has sodium in it and the other has ammonium? ;-)
 
"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Tony Raven says...
>> Clive George wrote on 03/05/2007 21:51 +0100:
>> >
>> > Now given that SLS/ALS are ionic surfactants, can anybody tell me
>> > the difference?
>> >

>>
>> One has had a fraudulent scare-mail circulated about it and the other
>> hasn't?
>>

> Or, one has sodium in it and the other has ammonium? ;-)


If I restored the bit saying "Look at the ingredients and they
typically contain ammmonium lauryl sulphate and salt", is that difference
still there?

cheers,
clive
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Paul Boyd <usenet.dont.work@plusnet> writes:
|>
|> Sheesh indeed! This argument is getting quite incredible! Years ago I
|> had a car that I used to wash regularly with washing-up liquid. It
|> developed a fair amount of bodywork rust. Then I heard about salt in
|> washing-up liquid and stopped using it. I got another car from the same
|> manufacturer, of roughly the same age, used the same washing routine but
|> with car shampoo instead of washing-up liquid. No rust.
|>
|> That'll do for me. Whether it's my car or my bike, I now use the
|> recommended products and everything comes up clean and corrosion-free.

Ah. Statistically significant at the 50% level :)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Having got through another litre of Muc-Off I set to wondering what
> the cheaper alternatives were. Best prospect I saw was £4 for 2L of
> Swarfega Oil & Grease Remover, which may even be soluble to form a
> similar strengh to Muc-Off
>
> http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=50166
>
> What do others use?


Try diluting the Muc Off half and half with water.

It works just as well as full strength.

Sam Salt
 
Sam Salt wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> Having got through another litre of Muc-Off I set to wondering what
>> the cheaper alternatives were. Best prospect I saw was £4 for 2L of
>> Swarfega Oil & Grease Remover, which may even be soluble to form a
>> similar strengh to Muc-Off
>>
>> http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=50166
>>
>> What do others use?

>
> Try diluting the Muc Off half and half with water.
>
> It works just as well as full strength.
>


Does the effect continue as with the homeopathic medicine argument -
that you can continue to dilute until there is not a single atom (or
molecule) of the substance remaining, and the water still 'remembers'
the effect?

This could spoil their business plan.