Child carrying advice please



"JohnB" <[email protected]> wrote

> When able to pedal, say about 3 1/2 to 4yrs old I would also recommend
> moving on to a tandem rather than using the pull along trailerbikes.
> This will develop pedalling techniques whereas a trailerbike can have
> the child just sitting there freewheeling.

I have to disagree. I pulled my daughter for over 5 years with a trailer-bike
in every conceivable type of situation, from urban to very rough off-road. The
t-b's have many advantages over tandems, not the least of which is cost. My
daughter did some solo riding during that time, but not much. When she outgrew
the t-b last year she went solo full-time, and her stamina and bike handling
skills are superb.

As for the rear seat vs. trailer question, I think Frank K. got it right, the
seats can work well if the rider is reasonably skilled and there isn't too
large a weight difference. Trailers require a little less skill and don't
extract quite the handling penalty. One thing that bothered me about using the
seat with my son was that he would fall asleep and flop around. I don't expect
it's harmful, but it bothered me to see a toddler's head doing that.
 
> Can anyone tell me from experience which is the best/safest way to
> carry my 21 month old daughter.

Just put her on the handle bars, no need for a helment or any of that safety
stuff ;-)
 
S o r n i wrote:
> scurry wrote:
>
>>S o r n i wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Abdominal internally. Hands and arms externally.
>>>
>>>Bill "HTH" S.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Bill are you getting tutored in posting style by Crazy?
>
>
> Jeez, between you and Monique, EVERYBODY'S PICKING ON ME!

BUT MO-OM! HE STARTED IT!

;-)

-km

--
the black rose
proud to be owned by a yorkie
http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts
 
"doctormick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You've probably seen similar messages before but I can't find the
> advice I'm after in any archive.
>
> My wife wants to buy a bike to go cycling with my ten and seven year
> old daughters but also want to be able to take my 21 month old
> daughter with her. However we can't decide whether she should go for a
> seat on the back or a trailer.
>
> Can anyone tell me from experience which is the best/safest way to
> carry my 21 month old daughter. She weichs approx 28 - 30 lbs
>
> We live in a rural location between Brighton and London, therefore
> busy main roads and narrow country lanes. It's also pretty hilly
> immediately around us. Any ideas would be gratefully received.

I've tried both, and I like trailers better.
More carrying capacity, easier to switch between bikes, more stable.
Trailers are heavier and wider, though.

Which is 'safer' is really a non-issue. Each is only as safe as YOU are, and
you change your riding style with the kid on the back.

Pete
 
>we can't decide whether she should go for a seat on the back or a trailer.
>
> Can anyone tell me from experience which is the best/safest way to
> carry my 21 month old daughter. She weichs approx 28 - 30 lbs

With a seat, if rider goes down so does baby,
With a trailer, if rider goes down baby laughs at rider



> We live in a rural location between Brighton and London, therefore
> busy main roads and narrow country lanes.

A trailer with an orange flag and drivers will give you w WIDE berth
 
Hotshot wrote:
>>Can anyone tell me from experience which is the best/safest way to
>>carry my 21 month old daughter.
>
>
> Just put her on the handle bars, no need for a helment or any of that safety
> stuff ;-)
>
>

I don't like the back seats. How are you supposed to get the kid in
there and hold the bike up at the same time? I've seen people leaving
kids in the seat with the bike being held up (temporarily) by a
kickstand. My neighbor left her daughter in the bike seat and went back
in the house to get something - came back to find bike and kid had
fallen over.
--
My bike blog:
http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/
 
Peter Cole wrote:
>
> "JohnB" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > When able to pedal, say about 3 1/2 to 4yrs old I would also recommend
> > moving on to a tandem rather than using the pull along trailerbikes.
> > This will develop pedalling techniques whereas a trailerbike can have
> > the child just sitting there freewheeling.
>
> I have to disagree. I pulled my daughter for over 5 years with a trailer-bike
> in every conceivable type of situation, from urban to very rough off-road. The
> t-b's have many advantages over tandems, not the least of which is cost.

Well we will disagree then. I've taken four children the tandem route
(after trailers and seats) with occasional forays onto our Hannington trailerbike.
The latter has had them freewheeling at times.
However, I do agree about the cost and it can be expensive, but luckily
with four we were able to make teh most of the outlay.
My
> daughter did some solo riding during that time, but not much. When she outgrew
> the t-b last year she went solo full-time, and her stamina and bike handling
> skills are superb.

As are ours.
All could easily ride 40+ mpd solo at 10 years old, although they still
occasionally ride tandem/tandem trike. KJ's stamina is something to be
seen, never giving up and can now cover 80mpd (she did LEJOG at 14yrs).

> As for the rear seat vs. trailer question, I think Frank K. got it right, the
> seats can work well if the rider is reasonably skilled and there isn't too
> large a weight difference. Trailers require a little less skill and don't
> extract quite the handling penalty. One thing that bothered me about using the
> seat with my son was that he would fall asleep and flop around. I don't expect
> it's harmful, but it bothered me to see a toddler's head doing that.

Fully agree. I used to wake ours up from time to time.
I did use a tandem trike with kiddiecranks and a child seat, so handling
when wheeling or parking was not a problem.

John B

John B
 
"Diablo Scott" wrote: (clip) My neighbor left her daughter in the bike seat
and went back in the house to get something - came back to find bike and
kid had fallen over.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not a good idea in any case. I recall a recent "incident" in which mom left
child in a car, just to run in and get something--came back to find the
child GONE.
 
doctormick <[email protected]> wrote:
> You've probably seen similar messages before but I can't find the
> advice I'm after in any archive.
>
> My wife wants to buy a bike to go cycling with my ten and seven year
> old daughters but also want to be able to take my 21 month old
> daughter with her. However we can't decide whether she should go for a
> seat on the back or a trailer.
>
> Can anyone tell me from experience which is the best/safest way to
> carry my 21 month old daughter. She weichs approx 28 - 30 lbs
>
> We live in a rural location between Brighton and London, therefore
> busy main roads and narrow country lanes. It's also pretty hilly
> immediately around us. Any ideas would be gratefully received.
>
> Regards
>
> Mike Turner
>
I'd go with the trailer at that age, but you should also keep your eye out
for a good deal on a trailer bike. Sheldon sells a few models:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/trailrcy.html

I started my son on one of these at about age 31/2 and enjoyed it up until
he was 7 or so for longer rides he couldn't make on his own. By then, my
daughter was ready.

Tom
 
Diablo Scott wrote:

>
> I don't like the back seats. How are you supposed to get the kid in
> there and hold the bike up at the same time?

You're supposed to lean the right side of the bike up against a solid
surface like a wall, pick up the kid, and strap the kid in. If you
like, you can press your hip alongside the seat, and/or you can use
something to keep the front brake engaged to help keep the bike even
more stable. Anything that squeezes the brake lever will do - say, a
strong rubber band cut from an old inner tube.

At least, that's how I did it for years. Never had a problem.

> I've seen people leaving
> kids in the seat with the bike being held up (temporarily) by a
> kickstand. My neighbor left her daughter in the bike seat and went back
> in the house to get something - came back to find bike and kid had
> fallen over.

Yeah, and I've seen people ride facing traffic. Certain things _should_
be obvious.


BTW, for those who do use a trailer, you _must_ remember not to cut
corners too sharply. I have a friend who dumped her daughter on the
face by taking a corner sharp enough to hit the curb with the trailer's
inside wheel.


--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]
 
Diablo Scott wrote:
> Hotshot wrote:
>
>>> Can anyone tell me from experience which is the best/safest way to
>>> carry my 21 month old daughter.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just put her on the handle bars, no need for a helment or any of that
>> safety
>> stuff ;-)
>>
>>
>
> I don't like the back seats. How are you supposed to get the kid in
> there and hold the bike up at the same time? I've seen people leaving
> kids in the seat with the bike being held up (temporarily) by a
> kickstand. My neighbor left her daughter in the bike seat and went back
> in the house to get something - came back to find bike and kid had
> fallen over.

That happened with my first son with my first husband. He took our
toddler riding with him and actually admitted when he got back that he'd
left our son in the seat and wandered away from the bike. When he
returned, bike and baby were upside down in a ditch. He thought it was
funny. Had the ditch been full of water, the baby would have drowned.

Just one in a long list of reasons I divorced that man.

-km

--
the black rose
proud to be owned by a yorkie
http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts
 
On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 20:59:05 -0400, "tcmedara"
<[email protected]> wrote (more or less):

>doctormick <[email protected]> wrote:
>> You've probably seen similar messages before but I can't find the
>> advice I'm after in any archive.
>>
>> My wife wants to buy a bike to go cycling with my ten and seven year
>> old daughters but also want to be able to take my 21 month old
>> daughter with her. However we can't decide whether she should go for a
>> seat on the back or a trailer.
>>
>> Can anyone tell me from experience which is the best/safest way to
>> carry my 21 month old daughter. She weichs approx 28 - 30 lbs
>>
>> We live in a rural location between Brighton and London, therefore
>> busy main roads and narrow country lanes. It's also pretty hilly
>> immediately around us. Any ideas would be gratefully received.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Mike Turner
>>
>I'd go with the trailer at that age, but you should also keep your eye out
>for a good deal on a trailer bike. Sheldon sells a few models:
>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/trailrcy.html
>
>I started my son on one of these at about age 31/2 and enjoyed it up until
>he was 7 or so for longer rides he couldn't make on his own. By then, my
>daughter was ready.

For trailer bikes, teh lower limit is inside leg length, rather than
age or weight.

The one I checked out had a min inside leg requirement of 20.5"


--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk
 
On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 11:45:13 GMT, JohnB <[email protected]> wrote (more
or less):

>pas wrote:
....
>> If you are really worried about "risk of emergency stop"
>> or a kid being flung around, perhaps you should not take your baby out at
>> all... there's going to be risk no matter what.
>
>By definition an emergency stop cannot be planned for, and will be
>completely unexpected but the potential effects of one can be reduced.
>One of the most common reasons for a rapid or immediate stop is when a
>vehicle pulls out in front of a cyclist - a typical SMIDSY.
>
>Anything loose - will be flung forward - in this case a child. An
>unrestrained child on the front may be propelled at speed off the bike
>and into the vehicle or on to the road or into the handlebar clutter.
>Alternatively they may be crushed by the adult as they too move forward.
>In addition, with the weight on the front the chance of a
>head-over-the-handlebars situation increases.
>
>Worse still is if the rider hits the obstruction and doesn't even manage
>to stop. The immediate forces will propel the child and/or rider.
>
>Yes, there are also risks from having the child on the rear or in a
>trailer but they are lower. The child will still be propelled forward if
>in a rear seat, but at least they will have something soft in front of
>them and not have the weight of an adult (or bike) bearing on them from behind.
>
>One favourable aspect of having the child on the front is that the
>parent/rider can feel closer to the child and thus the 'bonding' and
>interaction is more pleasant. then again they are not protected from the
>elements and a young child feels cold to a much greater extent than adults.
>
>IMO this is a no-brainer.
>Carrying children on the front of bikes has far more risks than on the
>rear and is not something I would ever advise.

Hmmm - I'd say that the primary safety is higher with front seats,
even if I agree with you about secondary safety.

Mainly for when parking up, or pushing the bike, admnittedly. But
having the seat nearer the CoG means fewer bizarre torques tending to
make the bike fall over.




--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk
 
pas wrote:
>
> JohnB wrote:
> > pas wrote:
> >>
> >> http://www.specialtyoutdoors.com/misc/babyseat.jpg
> >>
> >> here's how they do it in some countries. We built one like this
> >> ourselves for around town, it's actually much more stable than over
> >> the back wheel as the CG doesn't change a whole lot and the kid is
> >> inside your arms.
> >
> > I've never liked this kind of arrangement as it places the child at
> > some risk in the case of an emergency or sudden stop. At least the
> > example you show has a rigid back that should help prevent the adult
> > crushing into the child. the worst are those clamp on saddles that go
> > on the top tube with two foot supports attached to the down tube.
> > However I don't like the idea of the child being flung forward onto
> > the handlebar clutter or worse, which even with strapping is possible
> > with some arrangements. At least if they are on the back they have a
> > soft back to knock into.
> >
> > John B
>
> trust me, it's much more stable than the baby on the back of the bike.

With respect, I'd prefer to trust my own experiences.

> After all, three million third world cyclists building them at home can't be
> wrong!!

They can, but they may have no choice.
In the developed world the advances in safety are higher, and the cost
of a tested properly constructed child seat is not the equivalent of an
annual salary.

> The one we built had a little seat on the top tube, foot rest and
> no back the kid just held onto the handlebars. I don't know about trails but
> it was great for the bike path
>
> The rear tyre thing is just - bad. You have to remember to compensate for
> the weight of the kid everytime you stop. The kids' weight, and you could be
> riding with an extra 30# back there, will really throw you off even if you
> have to swerve.

I fully agree - see my post advocating the use of a trailer.
Even wheeling a bike is difficult exercise with the raised CoG.
It is the same whether the weight is fore or aft.

> If you are really worried about "risk of emergency stop"
> or a kid being flung around, perhaps you should not take your baby out at
> all... there's going to be risk no matter what.

By definition an emergency stop cannot be planned for, and will be
completely unexpected but the potential effects of one can be reduced.
One of the most common reasons for a rapid or immediate stop is when a
vehicle pulls out in front of a cyclist - a typical SMIDSY.

Anything loose - will be flung forward - in this case a child. An
unrestrained child on the front may be propelled at speed off the bike
and into the vehicle or on to the road or into the handlebar clutter.
Alternatively they may be crushed by the adult as they too move forward.
In addition, with the weight on the front the chance of a
head-over-the-handlebars situation increases.

Worse still is if the rider hits the obstruction and doesn't even manage
to stop. The immediate forces will propel the child and/or rider.

Yes, there are also risks from having the child on the rear or in a
trailer but they are lower. The child will still be propelled forward if
in a rear seat, but at least they will have something soft in front of
them and not have the weight of an adult (or bike) bearing on them from behind.

One favourable aspect of having the child on the front is that the
parent/rider can feel closer to the child and thus the 'bonding' and
interaction is more pleasant. then again they are not protected from the
elements and a young child feels cold to a much greater extent than adults.

IMO this is a no-brainer.
Carrying children on the front of bikes has far more risks than on the
rear and is not something I would ever advise.

John B
 
Don't even think of a child seat. A trailer is far far safer, as well
as more practical. I switched when the second kid was due, who
started daily commutes at 3 months (in a Weber baby seat); they are
now 2 and 5, and are still happily commuting. With the seat, we had
a few falls, the worst shortly after I switched to SPDs (yeah
yeah...), which resulted in a bruised arm for my daughter.
It could have been worse, and I vowed then never to use one and to
shout abuse at others when I see them... DON'T EVEN THINK OF USING A
CHILD SEAT! Especially not the front-mounted or cross-bar mounted
ones.

Some trailer plus points:

* If you take a fall, the trailer remains upright and the fallen bike
acts as a brake. I've tested this theory a number of times, much
to the amusement of the passengers
* If you fall with the child seat, the child has a lot further to
fall and even a good child seat doesn't give much protection
* The trailer is very visible in traffic and motorists give it a
wide berth
* Exhaust fumes measured in a child trailer are lower than inside
a car
* Studies in Germany show that even in the case of impact with a car,
the trailer being light is shunted out of the way, rather than
crushed.
* Rain protection is easier as is schlepping gear around

I have a Leggero Classico, that has done over 8000km over the last two
years: if I had the money I'd have got the Richie with caravan type
run-out brakes and suspension, but its been great. There is lots of
good advice on the web, but most of it is in German - I've read it
all, and added my own extensive experience

Things to look for when buying:

* Ideally, get a solid based trailer, rather than a fabric one -
this makes a safer capsule and is better when the kids climb in
and out
* It should have a sturdy roll cage, and ideally, the Weber hard
roof
* Get a good coupling (Becco or Weber are my favourites) - don't
use the Trek / Burley clamp-on one, it is utter ****, and interferes
with the wheels when turning on many bikes.
* Ensure the coupling is firmly attached (I don't like the QR skewer
ones)
* Always use a secondary retainer strap in case the coupling breaks
* Make sure the bicycle brakes are excellant. I changed to Magura
HS33s with have been brilliant. Disks would be OK as well. You
need a good back brake to use as a drag brake on descents, and be
carefull to keep the trailer/bike in a line when braking hard.
The run-out brakes of the Richie might be good.
* Add a second flag to the supplied one (we have the Wexford GAA flag
- purple & gold - nicely visible!)
* Sort the lights. I have a hub dynamo and B&M make a "weicher" - a
junction box so you can plug the trailers lights in when you hitch
up. I also have recharagble lights as backup.
* Generally, choose good bright colours and stick on as many
relectors, dayglo strips and stickers as you can.
* A rear-view mirror is useful, both to check the kids and the trailer
and to get some warning if a car isn't leaving enough space.
* When the kid is small, run the tyres a bit soft, and perhaps use
extra padding between the seat and trailer (some foam rubber works
well). It's harder to pull with soft tyres, but when they grow,
you can pump them up, and you've already prepared yourself for the
heavier load
 
JohnB <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> pas wrote:
> >
> > http://www.specialtyoutdoors.com/misc/babyseat.jpg
> >
> > here's how they do it in some countries. We built one like this ourselves
> > for around town, it's actually much more stable than over the back wheel as
> > the CG doesn't change a whole lot and the kid is inside your arms.
>
> I've never liked this kind of arrangement as it places the child at some
> risk in the case of an emergency or sudden stop. At least the example
> you show has a rigid back that should help prevent the adult crushing
> into the child. the worst are those clamp on saddles that go on the top
> tube with two foot supports attached to the down tube.
> However I don't like the idea of the child being flung forward onto the
> handlebar clutter or worse, which even with strapping is possible with
> some arrangements. At least if they are on the back they have a soft
> back to knock into.

I'd be more concerned about the sky falling.
 
On 5 Aug 2004 05:26:11 -0700, Rory <[email protected]> wrote:

> Some trailer plus points:

[snip]

> * Exhaust fumes measured in a child trailer are lower than inside
> a car
> * Studies in Germany show that even in the case of impact with a car,
> the trailer being light is shunted out of the way, rather than
> crushed.

Can you document this? I'd like to read these studies myself. I'm not
trying to troll, I own a trailer, but I'm very concerned about using it
anywhere close to traffic.

Sverre


--
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I've tried trailer, backpack, and child seat. I have found that the
trailer is by far the best option in terms of stability, comfort,
riding qualities, effeciency, safety, and payload. As you have
undoubtably noticed, any travel with a child requires a lot of stuff
-- at first a diaper bag, later the child's backpack. The trailer
hauls all this.

I've put about 600 miles/1000 km on my trailer this summer alone,
taking my daughter to day camp. If I didn't have the trailer, my car
would have been the sole practical alternative.

Paul
 
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