China Overtaking Europe



limerickman said:
The reality, as I have stated before, is that the entire planets economic systems are now integrated.
This is the by-product of globalisation.

If the EU or China or the USA was to implode economically, it would cause ructions throughout.
Exactly ...... I read somewhere that if Germany would collapse, so would the US banking system ..... The European economic community & and the US is so closely tied that sometimes it is hard to know who the true ownership is.... I have always said that Corporations such as BP, IBM, Microsoft, etc, etc, are their own "countries" anyway. They play by their own rules.
The British ownership of land in the US is rarely discussed. They are a large landowner. Back in the 80's when the talk of Japan taking over the US was going on , it was explained to me that the Japanese strenght was false. They simply had no real ownership in nothing here.... The corporations they owned were a false economy because of the lack of land ownership.
When we look at the world's economic chain, we need to consider it as a whole.
The communist system in China will be a hinderance eventually. In order to survive capitolism needs a free market.
 
I think Americans are going to get a bit of a shock on the scale of Yuri Gagarin and sputnik. ;)
The U.S. is complacent and very busy with the political situation in Iraq e.t.c While all this is going on, China's economy is growing incredibly fast - faster than any other modern industrialised country. China is basically minding its own business and concentrating on economic performance and reform of the infrastructure.
China will cause shockwaves in the next Olympics as they're determined to make a statement about China's new global status and so they re-adopted the old Soviet sports program.
China's space program will cause more shock waves when a lunar landing goes ahead with more plans to build a base on the moon.
China isn't bogged down by excessive red-tape and remains the most attractive place to to invest in and do business.
So, I'm very optimistic about China. That's just my view, though and time will tell.


Colorado Ryder said:
Is that why almost all Chinese exports go to the US? China had better hope the US economy remains strong. If we go down China will hit the floor real hard. The US market is still by far the largest in the world. China's market has the potential to be as large. But China will need many more reforms before that happens. I'm not so sure that China's political system can survive a US/EU size economy. To be the size of the US or EU they will need to adapt many more market freedoms that the rulers probably won't want to give up.
 
Carrera said:
I think Americans are going to get a bit of a shock on the scale of Yuri Gagarin and sputnik. ;)
Oh we were shocked. Then we blew away the Soviets in the space race.

Carrera said:
China's space program will cause more shock waves when a lunar landing goes ahead with more plans to build a base on the moon.
Been there and done that...oh about 36 years ago. So yes it will be shocking that someone other than the US has finally, after 36 years, reached the moon. Is there any real value in a moon base? If there was wouldn't the US, Japan, or the ESA already be there?

Carrera said:
China's economy is growing incredibly fast - faster than any other modern industrialised country.
When you start at zero it sure is easy to grow faster than a established economy.
 
General ramble :
One of the problems with comparing China with the rest of the World is that it is nowhere close to a level playing field. As has been mentioned, there is often little consideration given to the various factors that restrict development in the other economies that have been held up for comparison.
There is a case going on here at the moment where a Chinese National drilling company is reneging on supplying a Jack-up Rig to a client because, regardless of them having signed a contract, they want a higher dayrate. No other offshore drilling company would try to pull a stunt like that. The client is now in deep doggie-doo's with its mobilisation of materials and associated services, with little means of comeback other than to warn other oil companies not to enter into contracts with the (2x) Chinese National drilling companies.
I just got back from a fact-finding trip to Equatorial Guinea for our future operations there. The Chinese government has made a very large push in there and is attempting to, more or less, buy the Country. As was seen by the earlier attempt to buy-out Unocal, the Chinese government is putting a lot more effort into buying external infrastructure than it is putting into raising the standard of living for its own people.
Do you think that all that construction that is happening in the mercantile cities, that caused steel prices to soar and steel availability to plummet, is being done to provide the rural folk with somewhere nice to shop?
My guess is that, over the next 20 years, China will indeed rise to be a very substantial player. I very much doubt that freedoms for the people is on the agenda, though. The current repressive authoritarian power structure will merely change to being an extremely rich repressive authoritarian power structure.
China is still a difficult place for foreign companies to operate. We had a Rig over there earlier this year and the bueaucratic restrictions and lack of systems can be almost crippling.
A question, Carrera: When you speak of the Chinese that you know, are you referring to people who are Chinese Nationals or people who are of Chinese race? There appear to be a few generalisations of character in there which I find difficult to correlate with my experiences of interaction with Chinese Nationals.
 
wolfix said:
Exactly ...... I read somewhere that if Germany would collapse, so would the US banking system ..... The European economic community & and the US is so closely tied that sometimes it is hard to know who the true ownership is.... I have always said that Corporations such as BP, IBM, Microsoft, etc, etc, are their own "countries" anyway. They play by their own rules.
The British ownership of land in the US is rarely discussed. They are a large landowner. Back in the 80's when the talk of Japan taking over the US was going on , it was explained to me that the Japanese strenght was false. They simply had no real ownership in nothing here.... The corporations they owned were a false economy because of the lack of land ownership.
When we look at the world's economic chain, we need to consider it as a whole.
The communist system in China will be a hinderance eventually. In order to survive capitolism needs a free market.

Spot on.
I remember having do study economics and they were telling us about how the Japanese were buying up land all over the USA in the 1980's.

I think you hot on a good point too.
Microsoft, for example, have porbably got as much direct power as many goverments.
Look at how MS influences all over lives - sure we're both using their operating system to communicate now.

Even though I oppose the bush goverments policies, I wouldn't wish to see the US economy falter.
That would not be good for Americans, nor would it be good for the rest of us.
The world relies on a resilent US economy.
 
Colorado Ryder said:
Oh we were shocked. Then we blew away the Soviets in the space race.

Been there and done that...oh about 36 years ago. So yes it will be shocking that someone other than the US has finally, after 36 years, reached the moon. Is there any real value in a moon base? If there was wouldn't the US, Japan, or the ESA already be there?

When you start at zero it sure is easy to grow faster than a established economy.

This may sound like a stupid question but...
I thought that the USA owned the Moon : in that they had landing rights for the moon, that is why the Soviets never landed there.

Am I mistaken about landing rights ?
 
Carrera said:
So, you Americans on the forum might as well admit it. It's China you're awed by not Europe. Correct? ;)
They have to import energy, they have dwindling water supplies, & their share of arable land is shrinking. Why should I be scared. They're economy is booming. Great. People will demand more liberties. their problem is that they have not produced entrepreneurs. They have no intellectual property.
 
Carrera said:
"China's rise is no longer a prediction. It is a fact. It is already the world's fastest-growing large economy, and the second largest holder of foreign-exchange reserves, mainly dollars. It has the world's largest army (2.5 million men) and the fourth largest defense budget, which is rising by more than 10 percent annually. The results have been astonishing. China has grown around 9 percent a year for more than 25 years, the fastest growth rate for a major economy in recorded history. In that same period it has moved 300 million people out of poverty and quadrupled the average Chinese person's income. And all this has happened, so far, without catastrophic social upheavals. The Chinese leadership has to be given credit for this historic achievement."
Fareed Zakaria - Editor, Newsweek International
Zakaria is an excellent source. I just finished reading one of his books.
 
Carrera said:
I had a Texan business friend and we ran a business in Spain. He told me without a doubt the average Spaniard lived better than the average American. More holidays, better pensions, more social protection.
The downside of the coin was Spain was way behind in technology and Spain was creating fewer jobs than in the U.S.
And now it's the other way round in China. The average American lives far better than the average Chinese but China is leaving the U.S. way behind in exports and industry.
It is a natural cycle Carrera. Nomadic-Agrarian-Industrial-Informational. All go through the process. The lower down the scale one is, the lower the standard of living and life expectancy. China is in the Industrial stage whereas U>S> and E>U are in ther Informational/cyber-if you will-stage. It is a proven migration. Knowledge-Information is power.
 
Billsworld said:
The rulers granting freedom is the big question. I say they will fight against it, but my friend who does biz there is say ing the communist stronghold will end within 20 years. I too have alot of faith in the US economy, but I think the question for us 1)is how long can we continue to borrow, spend AND nation build?2) how much longer can we expand the social spending.? The US seems to be a magnet for every 3rd world country to go to. The libs look at the the cost of "welfare" and dismiss the cost as minimal. The expense goes way past what that one program costs. They neglect to site the cost of SSI, Free medical, Section 8 housing, food stamps, the prison system as a result of the previous. They also dont mention how many illegals are on some or all of those programs. They also neglect to site the cost on busineses and people that are operating on a middle class paycheck,who have to pay for most of the expense. Thanks BW
Where are your facts to base this assertion on? Do you know how much social spending takes up as a % of the total budget? I do. Military spending dwarfs all other aspects of the budget. As far as prisons go. Who's putting them in there (Conservatives) and who is getting all of the windfall profits from the Conservatives "throw-away-the-key" approach to sentencing guidlines hmmmm? Conservative Corporations like Wackenhut, thats who.
 
Colorado Ryder said:
Is there any real value in a moon base? If there was wouldn't the US, Japan, or the ESA already be there?
they were talking about this recently on the radio, truth is the US, Eu or China for that matter dont know enough about the moon to answer that question fully yet..

chances are it will be more like a super quarry rather than any useful 'moon base'..

minerals is the key to the moon.
 
davidmc said:
Where are your facts to base this assertion on? Do you know how much social spending takes up as a % of the total budget? I do. Military spending dwarfs all other aspects of the budget. As far as prisons go. Who's putting them in there (Conservatives) and who is getting all of the windfall profits from the Conservatives "throw-away-the-key" approach to sentencing guidlines hmmmm? Conservative Corporations like Wackenhut, thats who.
Military spending is the largest aspect of the US federal budget, but social spending in the US is larger then military spending. Social spending is a state issue. Most programs , even the ones the feds are backing are administered to by the state. So the social programs are a state issue and come out of the state budget. The social programs are eating away the middle class. And these programs for the most part are failures.
Prisions????? Look up and see the statistics as to who is putting the people in prison..... Your chances of going to prison in a Democratic county are much higher then in a Republican controlled county. Counties control the prisons, it has nothing to do with the Feds. The Feds control very little of the prison system.
The top prosecutors that put away criminals, and they are the ones who are behind the "throw away the key", not the politicians, are dominated by Democrats. The facts are .."If you want to go to prison, vote Democratic."
The "I'll cut down on crime mantra" is a staple of the Democrats in smaller political circles at election time.......
 
MountainPro said:
they were talking about this recently on the radio, truth is the US, Eu or China for that matter dont know enough about the moon to answer that question fully yet..

chances are it will be more like a super quarry rather than any useful 'moon base'..

minerals is the key to the moon.
MP try a google search on helium 3
 
davidmc said:
Where are your facts to base this assertion on? Do you know how much social spending takes up as a % of the total budget? I do. Military spending dwarfs all other aspects of the budget. As far as prisons go. Who's putting them in there (Conservatives) and who is getting all of the windfall profits from the Conservatives "throw-away-the-key" approach to sentencing guidlines hmmmm? Conservative Corporations like Wackenhut, thats who.
My assertions over overspending dont exclude any wastefull spending. The Dems can clearly and easily find repub pork as well. I am always reluctant to listen to the left on military spending however. I still remember J. Carter. My point was more towards the cost of giving illegals social services, and encouraging people with no skill or any ambition to learn a skill to have families that they cant take care of. Middle class folks have to make hard decisions about having kids. The people on the dole are not required to make those same decisions. Fairness to the people paying the bills aside,the point being made wasnt the up front costs of giving these money to live. It was the long term effect of encouraging people to breed that have no way to support the subsiquent generation. When the left points out the minimal cost of welfare type programs(most fed aided) , they neglect to add in the cost of the local hospitals(FED aided) ,SSI check for every kid with A.D.D.(FED), added police and the local public schools(fed aided state and local) ) In my state its about a $10,000 per student. I have listened to the **** from people that are getting the money. Its to the point where they feel it is thier right to recieve the money, while their contribution to society is clearly WAY in the red........... I still think that giving bright and deserving university students a help with tuition is a good thing though.:)
 
davidmc said:
Where are your facts to base this assertion on? Do you know how much social spending takes up as a % of the total budget? I do. Military spending dwarfs all other aspects of the budget. As far as prisons go. Who's putting them in there (Conservatives) and who is getting all of the windfall profits from the Conservatives "throw-away-the-key" approach to sentencing guidlines hmmmm? Conservative Corporations like Wackenhut, thats who.
interest.gif


Yes by the chart above, military spending certainly does dwarf all the other items.
 
limerickman said:
This may sound like a stupid question but...
I thought that the USA owned the Moon : in that they had landing rights for the moon, that is why the Soviets never landed there.

Am I mistaken about landing rights ?
The moon is treated the same as Antarctica. It is to be shared by all. I think the UN passed some resolution.
 
wolfix said:
Military spending is the largest aspect of the US federal budget, but social spending in the US is larger then military spending. Social spending is a state issue. Most programs , even the ones the feds are backing are administered to by the state. So the social programs are a state issue and come out of the state budget. The social programs are eating away the middle class. And these programs for the most part are failures.
Prisions????? Look up and see the statistics as to who is putting the people in prison..... Your chances of going to prison in a Democratic county are much higher then in a Republican controlled county. Counties control the prisons, it has nothing to do with the Feds. The Feds control very little of the prison system.
The top prosecutors that put away criminals, and they are the ones who are behind the "throw away the key", not the politicians, are dominated by Democrats. The facts are .."If you want to go to prison, vote Democratic."
The "I'll cut down on crime mantra" is a staple of the Democrats in smaller political circles at election time.......
Legislatures make the laws. Prosecutors and judges simply make their "suggestions" based on those laws. Who has "pushed" the "3-strikes-you're-out", draconian, one size fits all, non-violent offender, sentencing guidelines over the last decade? Conservatives-Republicans. Their actions, in turn, force the states to sub-contract out to private companies-Wackenhut-who recieve large sums of taxpayer money to house these low-middle income, non-violent offenders.
 
Colorado Ryder said:
interest.gif


Yes by the chart above, military spending certainly does dwarf all the other items.
See below:

The Government Deception

The pie chart below is the government view of the budget. This is a distortion of how our income tax dollars are spent because it includes Trust Funds (e.g., Social Security), and the expenses of past military spending are not distinguished from nonmilitary spending. For a more accurate representation of how your Federal income tax dollar is really spent, see the large chart.

The chart on the left is the one the gov't likes to parade about. the chart on the right more accurately reflects the distribution. I await your level-headed & well-reasoned retort.
 
davidmc said:
See below:



The chart on the left is the one the gov't likes to parade about. the chart on the right more accurately reflects the distribution. I await your level-headed & well-reasoned retort.
Just how is past military spending included in the current budget? Your assertion was that military spending dwarfs all others. That is wrong.
 

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