Chinese Carbon Frames

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by rparedes, Mar 12, 2009.

  1. bahrnsMHE

    bahrnsMHE New Member

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    It is always best to buy directly from sports equipment store and official dealers. They might offer higher price but you can assure quality and product warranty is always included in the package.
     


  2. cartierdesign

    cartierdesign New Member

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    Hi Kirk,
    I've been using these Chinese Carbon Frames now for nearly 2 years without any problems. The weight is fantastic, very responsive and you can add your own decals. I can assure you and any other reader that virtually every manufacturer these days use Chinese sourced products. The same quality control applies to all products regardless of its price. Let's face it, if something did go wrong or Heaven forbid you had a crash your not gonna have to shell out £2500 for a new frame. As for "known" manufacturers guarantees or crash protection schemes, they ain't worth the paper they're written on. I had a Di Luca Limited Edition Carbon Frame to which to BB Shell went on it - guess what, tough luck pay £350 to have it stripped and sent for inspection. As for crash protection scheme, you can have a % discount on a £2800 frame - big deal! Personally I'd rather pay £199 for a new frame full stop!

    Simon
     
  3. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    You can assure no such thing about "every manufacturer these days." As for the guarantees and crash protection schemes, again, you're spewing more BS. Your experience with the Di Luca frame was your experience with one single frame and one single frame manufacturer. You simply don't have the knowledge or experience to justify either of those comments. You certainly are in no position to make generalized statements about Chinese frames. You have a Chinese frame, so all you can comment on is your experience with that frame. This is almost assuredly the case if you don't even know enough to strip down a frame! Statistically yours is an n=1 sample set, which makes it worthless.......wait......wait......here it comes.......full stop.
     
  4. cartierdesign

    cartierdesign New Member

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    Many thanks for your comments. Please enlighten both myself and the other members what "BS I am spewing" regarding the so called "crash protection schemes". Do you receive a new frame - No! As for manufacturers sourcing products from the far East - yes I do know what I'm talking about, please offer some examples other than Trek as to those that don't. As for only one bad experience - If you had taken the trouble to look at my previous posts, you will find that you're incorrect once more. Finally, as for my experience with only one Chinese Carbon Frame, if you'd taken the trouble to check out My Profile and viewed my pictures you may have also thought twice about placing your fingers on your keypad. Nothing personal, just responding to another members request for experience. Mine is good, please educate us constructively as to yours.
    Regards
    Simon
     
  5. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Well, to start, here's list put together in about 5 minutes of bike frames not made in China:
    1. Time (France)
    2. Colnago (Taiwan and Italy)
    3. Pinarello (Taiwan)
    4. Kuota (Taiwan)
    5. Orbea (Taiwan)
    6. Wilier (Taiwan)
    7. Moots (USA)
    8. Eriksen (USA)
    9. Firefly (USA)
    10. Saarto (Italy)
    11. Look (France and Tunisia)
    12. Crumpton (USA)
    13. Calfee (USA)
    14. Cyfac (France)
    15. Lombardo (Italy)
    16. Casati (Italy)
    17. Crisp (Italy)
    18. Serotta (USA)
    19. Parlee (USA and Taiwan)
    20. Seven (USA)
    21. Javelin (USA)
    22. Baum (Australia)
    23. Max Lelli (Italy)
    24. Guru (Canada)

    You can also add all frame makers that were at NHABS. Again, that's just a start. Please note that Taiwan is not China, neither are France, the US, Australia, Tunisia, Italy, Canada, and many other countries in which bike frames are made. Alas, one also needs to learn that not every bike factory is the same, and the frames that come out of a given bike factory are not the same. Factories can have contracts with several different bike companies for production of bikes. Each frame produced can have its own special layup as well as closed molds. So a generic frame coming out of Factory X is not necessarily the same and is not necessarily built to the same specs and possibly high standards of a name brand frame coming out of Factory X. Anyone that's been in manufacturing knows that. Further, there is no implied quality at all to generic frames. There have already been verified stories of fake Pinarellos, for example, being produced with apparently the same molds but not the same layup: some have had CF replaced in places with fiberglass. Things like that are a big concern.

    Crash protection schemes: why would expect a free frame from such a scheme? The reduced cost of a replacement frame IS a huge value for a lot of folks, especially given the cost of their original frame. Cannondale, Trek, and many others offer such reduced costs. Further, many folks are justified in the belief that if they have a frame issue, be it because of a crash or a manufacturing defect, having a well known bike maker as the source offers the possibility of more recourse than the same folks would have if they had bought a generic frame. Moreover, a lot of people, quite possibly most people, are not willing to put bank their safety on a $199 generic frame made by no one specific who offers no warranty or has no verifiable history of producing quality frames.

    Frankly, pictures in a profile are meaningless. That's proof of nothing. You'll note that my avatar shows Mickey Mouse and a little boy; yet I was not in that picture. Of course it's easy enough for someone to fake pictures in their profile, too. That's a given. Certainly pictures in profile add no credibility to a post. Statistically, your pictures and "experience" don't add any credibility since your "experience" is a very limited sample set.
     
  6. wevergo

    wevergo New Member

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    Pinarello is made in China.
    Read the interviews with mister Fausto Pinarello in the magazines.

    TOUR magazine: Fausto Pinarello stated that he has moved all frame production from italy to China 3 years ago.
     
  7. steve

    steve Administrator
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    That's interesting, I assumed only the lower end models were made in China.
     
  8. AlanG

    AlanG Member

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    In the BBC show "Ride of My Life: The Story of the Bicycle" Rob Penn travels to different places in the world for "hand built" bike parts. Some companies would not let him see the production process including the handlebar shop in Italy. I think it was Cinelli. I wondered if "some" of what they were doing inside was opening up boxes from China or Taiwan.
     
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  9. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    I don't get Tour magazine, and I haven't seen an interview with Fausto; thus, I didn't know of the change. Subtract one from my incomplete list.
     
  10. Tech72

    Tech72 New Member

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    So many of the Italian parts are now labeled "Designed in Italy" to mask the fact they are manufactured in the Far East - Cinelli, Deda, 3T and so on. Incidentally, I have two Deda Newton handlebars of different vintages, same model and size. One is labeled "Made in Italy", the other "Designed in Italy". Strength-wise they may be equal (I would presume), but the surface finish of the older "Made in Italy" bar is superior and the graphics is screened on more evenly and lasts longer. There's a shiny-ness to the "Designed in Italy" bar that seems "cheaper". I can actually use my nail to scrape off the graphics on the Far East bar, not on the Euro bar.

    I'm shattered by the fact that Merckx frames are now being made in China since Pinarello bought Eddy's business. I really dislike the wavy profile of Pinarellos that Merckx frames have adopted. The Pinarello inspired graphics on current Merckxs is also a fail.
     
  11. AlanG

    AlanG Member

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    I hear what you are saying about a difference in quality. But maybe this was a cost saving decision made by Deda and not due to lack of ability to make a comparable product in China. I wonder how hard it is to design a handlebar anyway. Can't the Chinese do that too?

    http://www.worldometers.info/bicycles/

    According to this, 86% of the bicycles sold in the US are imports from China. So for the US market, it is mostly just some of the high end and specialized bikes that are made elsewhere.

    It is estimated that more than a billion bicycles are present in the world, with nearly half of them in China. Although bike use is in decline there. Below is a table with the major countries:
    Country Quantity
    Year
    China 450,000,000
    1992
    USA 100,000,000
    1995
    Japan 72,540,000
    1996
    Germany 62,000,000
    1996
    India 30,800,000
    1990
    Indonesia 22,300,000
    1982
    Italy 23,000,000
    1995
    UK 20,000,000
    1995
    France 20,000,000
    1995
    Brazil 40,000,000
    1996
    Netherlands 16,500,000
    2000
    Canada 10,150,000
    1992
    Spain 6,950,000
    1995
    Sweden 6,000,000
    1995
    South Korea 6,500,000
    1985
    Mexico 6,000,000
    1986
    Belgium 5,200,000
    1995
    Rumania 5,000,000
    1995
    Denmark 4,500,000
    1995
    Switzerland 3,800,000
    1996
    Hungary 3,500,000
    1995
    Australia 3,300,000
    1995
    Finland 3,250,000
    1995
    Norway 3,000,000
    1995

    On a side note, the type of wheeled photographic case that I use had its production moved from the US to China. I was at a trade show and the rep from the US company showed me the various ways that the Chinese company came up with to improve it.
     
  12. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing to indicate that the changes you noticed were the result of production being in China and not Italy.
     
  13. ambal

    ambal Active Member

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    It shouldn't matter where a frame is made. R&D can happen in Italy, Germany or France and frames can be made cheaper off shore under the companies supervision. It's a win-win for the company and the customer. It works well for car makers, why not bikes?
     
  14. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't really matter. What matters is the quality of the design, the assembly, and the materials. Knowing a country of manufacture doesn't tell you anything about those three things.

    FWIW, there have been quite a few stories in the last few months about the cost of off-shore production (and notably in the Far East, including China) going up such that an increasing number of companies are looking to move production back to the US or where ever the home country/continent for the company is. The number of companies doing as much isn't huge, but, again, it is increasing.

    I couldn't care less where something is made. My 3T Ergonova handlebars weren't made at the headquarters in Italy, but instead were made in the Far East somewhere. They function well, and I bought 'em at what was a fair price to me. I'm tickled pink about 'em.
     
  15. cartierdesign

    cartierdesign New Member

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    I refer back to my original point that virtually all MAJOR bike manufacturers these days involve China or the Far East in their production in some way (dropouts, shells, machining etc). I can assure all forum contributors that I have no reason to "fake" my Profile Pictures of my "fake" Bianchi's! All I can say is that the Carbon Frames that "I" have purchased from China are fabulous and are the best that I have experienced for rigidity, longevity, handling and comfort, together with value for money in over 25 years of racing! What's good enough for the AN POST SEAN KELLY SQUAD and the BRITISH CYCLING TEAM is good enough for me! I guess you're now gonna tell me Terry makes the frames in the UK !!!!
     
  16. dhk2

    dhk2 Active Member

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    I still have my "Made in UK" bike, a 1974 Raleigh Gran Sport, 531 lugged frame, which reveals all the fine attributes of british craftmanship of the era. Features like seatstays that aren't stuck on the seattube quite evenly, hand-filed brazed lugs, which look like they were done with a wood rasp, nick in the toptube next to the seat lug which looks to be from a vice, bubbles in the white paint around the headtube, waviness in the gold pinstriping.

    From this frame one might conclude the blokes at the Carlton Frameworks had apparently given up any notions of fine quality handwork by the 70's. Also, that perfection isn't really required, at least when you're building lugged-steel frames out of tough tubes that can be bent into reasonable alignment. But somehow, the hand touches are still nice to look at. Who hand paints the name of the bike in gold script with a pinstriping brush these days?
     
  17. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    What percentage constitutes virtually?

    How did you measure the rigidity on your frames? You do know, don't you, that at least one test shows that riders could not reliably tell if they were on a laterally stiff wheelset or not? Exactly how does a stiff frame affect performance? You do know, don't you, that there's not been a single study that's measured the effect of bike frame and component stiffness on performance, right?

    You did read the comments ride that addressed the whole "where it's made doesn't say anything about the quality of a product" thing, right? You are aware aren't you, that the exact same factory can put out a great product, a so-so product, and a crap product, right? You are aware, aren't you, that it all depends on the what the people who contract with a factory spec, right?

    So with that, the absolute best that can be objectively said about generic frames is that they can be great; they can be ok; or they can be absolute crap. There's nothing absolute that can be said about how they function.

    It should be noted that neither An Post Sean Kelly nor the British Cycling Team are riding generic frames, the frames for which you're shilling.
     
  18. cartierdesign

    cartierdesign New Member

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    [SIZE= 10pt]Let's go right back to basics. Right?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]Firstly I will enlighten you to the big wide world of OEM manufacture and supply. Right?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]Take for instance some of the UK’s largest Appliance "Manufacturers" - Baumatic, CDA, Caple, Mertz, Serena, Prima, the list goes on. They in fact manufacture NOTHING, nada, nichts, nowt, stuff all!! They contact manufacturers in China via a supplier website, click on required handle, control knobs, number of shelves etc. If the price is right then the “Brand” or in a bike frame case the “Decal” is added. On many occasions, not even a sample product is sent for approval before the container of stock arrives. This is exactly what happens in the bicycle industry. Every brand that does not have their own factory utilizes OEM suppliers or the term you use “Generic” bike frames. Right?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]Terry Dolan does not have a Carbon Fibre Manufacturing site, or Boardman, the list goes on. Right?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]As for a percentage of Virtually, I really can’t be bothered to establish this as I have a life. Right?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]How do I test the rigidity of my frames, by riding them! Right?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]It’s quite simple to “flex” a frame, rigidity can also be established by power transfer and handling. Right?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]If I could be bothered, I could compare the ride to my 1988 ALAN Carbon tube frame and then to my HTC Di2 Specialized Venge. Right?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]You are aren’t you, therefore suggesting that bike frames should handle like Cooked Spaghetti!! Right?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]Once upon a time, there were studies which stated that Smoking was Good for You! So much for a single study! Right?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]I refer back to Kirk’s original request for anyone with experience of “These Chinese Carbon Frames”. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]Do you own one of these frames? ………………….No![/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]Are you therefore able to offer any experience of these frames?……………..No![/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]Are you therefore able to comment constructively on this subject at all?…………………No! [/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]Guess what? I am!! Right?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE= 10pt]Hope you enjoy the reciprocal 9 year old sarcasm! Grow up and grow some! Right!![/SIZE]
     
  19. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    Wow. A lot of BS that answers absolutely nothing.

    Alas, you don't know what I own, what my experience is, or what I can constructively comment on. Objectively, my points were spot on. Your claims can only taken with a grain of salt.

    Here's something that will help you:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
     
  20. Mark George

    Mark George New Member

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    What purpose does it serve to add more heat to a discussion than light?
     
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