chorus or dura-ace/ultegra?

[catlike]

only real differences between groups from different manufacturers are ergonomic, materials, and method of function.
They all can operate for the life of a rider without drama, and likewise they all can fail. Given that, the differences for a rider then are ergonomic and those related to personal preference.

.

couldn't agree more. It was you who mentioned some mystical argument of ethics, whatever you mean by it.

arn't you born on 17.12.1964?

Relax men. Everyone on this forum knows how erudite you are. There is no need to proove it every month.
What exactly you don't like in my English? it does look like you understand what i write exactly how i mean.

 

[Peter@vecchios]

This has nothink to do with ethic there. If shimano makes shifters that does't nedd to be serviced- why they should make them rebuildable? Because Campa do??

Not exactly. They are specifically designed to be non serviceable. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice to fix rather than warranty or throw away these $300+ items.

BUT what has been mentioned about ERGOnomics is the key. If ya like the feel of a lever, use it. If you don't care, I recommend Campagnolo for function..the only multi shift lever(rear) in the group with true front der trim. PLUS ya can fix it.

 

[catlike]

Not exactly. They are specifically designed to be non serviceable. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice to fix rather than warranty or throw away these $300+ items.

I guess it would be nice to have them servicable once they break, but once they are't and most of people say it isn't big deal i don't cry for it.
Is there some reliable statistics about how much shimano STI levers break? Lets 0-10 year old ones in % of sold?
I would buy the equipment based on feel and ergonomics, price, service parts avilability. Not on some questionable ethics. If campa cares about their consumers so much why can't they make affordable chain tool, or mid range hubs? Woudn't it be ethical?

 

[swampy1970]

It always makes me chuckle that people get so tied up in "tradition" when it comes to a bit of machined metal/plastic/carbon for bike parts... and then believe that it's going to make them significantly faster up the next hill.

 

[alfeng]

I guess it would be nice to have them servicable once they break, but once they are't and most of people say it isn't big deal i don't cry for it.
Is there some reliable statistics about how much shimano STI levers break? Lets 0-10 year old ones in % of sold?
I would buy the equipment based on feel and ergonomics, price, service parts avilability. Not on some questionable ethics. If campa cares about their consumers so much why can't they make affordable chain tool, or mid range hubs? Woudn't it be ethical?

FWIW. As far as Shimano's reliability, it has apparently improved greatly since the 8-speed generation; but, others have observed that the Shimano shifters are apparently at their optimum when they are new -- I have read other people say that Shimano wears out (or worse, breaks down!) while Campagnolo simply breaks in.

Specifically, I know someone who was selling his old, barely ridden (less than 1000 miles, by my reckoning) bike because he had two "newer" bikes which he rode ...

The bike had an almost pristine pair of 8-speed 105 shifters ...

Less than 20 minutes into a test ride by someone else we both know, and the ham fisted "friend" manage to f*ck up the shifter so that it was no longer useable ... it became an expensive paperweight.

After the mishap, someone else mentioned how another person's 8-speed DA shifter had jammed a few years earlier, but somehow they were able to remedy it with a butter knife!?! I don't know how many miles that shifter had been used.

Regardless, mileage/use isn't a predictor of when a Shimano shifter will fail; and obviously, there are warranty replacements.

 

[alienator]

It always makes me chuckle that people get so tied up in "tradition" when it comes to a bit of machined metal/plastic/carbon for bike parts... and then believe that it's going to make them significantly faster up the next hill.

Who said anything about any given gruppo making someone faster? As far as I can tell, no one's made that claim.

 

[kdelong]

I'm not going to say use this or use that because the equipment that you use should be the equipment that you are most comfortable with. That said, I prefer the way my Shimano 105 brifters on my daily ride feel. They are the old 9-speed circa 2003 brifters, they have over 18,000 miles on them, and they still shift as precisely and cleanly as the first day I had the bike. Now I don't race or abuse my equipment so it tends to last longer I guess.

Chas0039 mentioned something about tradition. In my own tradition, I started riding with Huret, Simplex, and Regina mixes of components. They aren't around anymore except occasionally on eBay. Then I went to Shimano, then to Suntour, and back to Shimano. The few times that I have ridden borrowed Campy equipped bikes, the shifting just did not feel right to me. Maybe it is just a matter of getting used to it, but it feels right with my Shimano so that is what I ride. SRAM feels a lot closer to Shimano for me, but I am going to stick with what I like right now. I suggest that every one else ride whatever they like.

 

[alfeng]

Who said anything about any given gruppo making someone faster? As far as I can tell, no one's made that claim.

While a given group may not make a person faster when going uphill, I think that if someone isn't using a straight block cassette, some riders may find that a Shimano shifter may balk when downshifting when under load ...

And, while experienced riders may know that the way to work around Shimano's design deficiency is to accelerate, un-load the drivetrain, shift, and then pedal, that kluge is something that one does not need to do with Campagnolo shifters.

I think the only people who have not seen-or-heard someone's Shimano drivetrain balk when downshifting on a climb are people riding with fairly experienced riders OR they haven't passed someone who doesn't know how to compensate for the problem.

 

[alfeng]

I'm not going to say use this or use that because the equipment that you use should be the equipment that you are most comfortable with. That said, I prefer the way my Shimano 105 brifters on my daily ride feel. They are the old 9-speed circa 2003 brifters, they have over 18,000 miles on them, and they still shift as precisely and cleanly as the first day I had the bike. Now I don't race or abuse my equipment so it tends to last longer I guess.

Chas0039 mentioned something about tradition. In my own tradition, I started riding with Huret, Simplex, and Regina mixes of components. They aren't around anymore except occasionally on eBay. Then I went to Shimano, then to Suntour, and back to Shimano. The few times that I have ridden borrowed Campy equipped bikes, the shifting just did not feel right to me. Maybe it is just a matter of getting used to it, but it feels right with my Shimano so that is what I ride. SRAM feels a lot closer to Shimano for me, but I am going to stick with what I like right now. I suggest that every one else ride whatever they like.

FWIW. Campagnolo isn't perfect; but, I think that if the Campy equipped bike you tried didn't feel right, then it wasn't set up properly ... for you, at least.

Either the levers needed to be mounted in a different place on the bars and/or a Campy equipped bike with which you would be comfortable might need different handlebars or the stem length was wrong -- THAT is true for ensuring that Shimano & SRAM levers are comfortable for the rider, too. I've definitely seen some bikes set up in ways where I know I would need to re-orient (or, change) the bars & levers for me to ride the bike, comfortably, but obviously it must (hopefully) work for those riders ... those riders would presumably think that the way 'I' choose to mount the levers & bars wouldn't work for them.

THAT's not to say that a personal preference doesn't come into play when choosing one shifter over another ... and, if I were a Flatlander, I don't know if I ever would have tried Campy shifters in favor of the 8-and-9-speed Shimano shifters that I had.

 

[alfeng]

Are people really rebuilding and/or replacing Campy brifter parts that often? Out of curiosity, I called around the LBS in my city (pop. 2.0 million) and only one LBS carried Campy replacement parts and nothing for the Campy brifters. They can order for me but it will be many weeks to get delivery and the cost is borderline offensive. So how does having rebuildable brifters matter when you can't get parts for it?

In my 21 years of riding, 17 of which I've been using Shimano STI. I've yet to have to replace parts in the various STI brifters. I raced for 10 of those years (Cat 3 and 4) and never had to rebuild or replace a single set of brifters due to outright failure. Through regular use and a crash here and there in races, the brifters are a bit scratched up. But they work everytime afterwards, I've never had to replace a single part in the STI brifters out of functional necessity.

I've only used Dura-Ace (ok, three years on 80's Mavic SSC groupset) so my views may be admittedly skewed.

I have "rebuilt" several sets of my Campagnolo shifters ... and, I have a couple of more that I think I want to fiddle with (one definitely needs new G-springs).

Re-assembly is a little tricky the first (few!?!) times ... but, it is only difficult because of ignorance as to the easy way to put the main spring back in place. So, not only can it be done, it is often done by many people.

Some people prefer to have a shop do the work, but there aren't that many shops that are capable of doing the work in most cities; so, it is something that one may as well learn to do.

As far as parts, some are very expensive ...

Replacing the G-springs is often enough to renew a Campagnolo shifter. If a shop is being paid the labor to do the work, some of the other springs may be replaced at the same time.

Although the G-springs are not expensive ... one of these times, I'm going to try to tweak a pair of G-springs rather than replace them with new ones just to see if it can be done because a G-spring is just a STIFF piece of bent wire!

BTW. Sometimes it would be (is) cheaper to cannibalize another shifter if more than the G-springs are going to be replaced. Most of the parts on the less expensive pre-2007 shifters are interchangeable with the parts on a Record/Chorus shifter [the exception is the handle which has a cartridge BB on the Record/Chorus shifters vs. a bushing on the less expensive shifters ... the central shafts vary by a small amount & I guess the smaller diameter shaft can be used in a Record/Chorus handle, but why would one need to?] which means that a Veloce/(etc.) shifter is basically just a heavier Record shifter.

I know the Record & Chorus shifters are smooth & efficient, but so is a Veloce shifter; and, I think other than weight & cosmetics, the only practical difference one may find in Campagnolo's Ergo shifters may be the break-in period ... none for a pre-2009 Record or Chorus shifter, and probably a few hundred miles for a Campagnolo shifter which has bushings (e.g,. Veloce).

The lack of a Lance-Effect on Campagnolo shifters means that the non-Record-or-Chorus shifters seem to cost half the price of a Shimano or Sram shifter.

Although most of the rest of Campagnolo's "stuff" is expensive, the 10-speed Campagnolo shifters can be used with a multitude of Shimano & SRAM drivetrain combinations ... why pay more?

 

[chas0039]

I know the Record & Chorus shifters are smooth & efficient, but so is a Veloce shifter; and, I think other than weight & cosmetics, the only practical difference one may find in Campagnolo's Ergo shifters may be the break-in period ...

Actually, up until the QS series, the inner mechanical parts were identical from Veloce through Record.

And for the record, I ride both Shimano and Campy having two bikes with each. I prefer Campy first because of the shifter mechanism, second because I can service it, and third, because it has a long and interesting tradition. I enjoy riding both groups and I buy Shimano when it makes more sense for the bike I am on. I just enjoy riding Campy a little more. For the same reasons, all my saddles are Brooks, first because they fit me perfectly, but second, because they are made out of leather in England by a company over 100 years old with traditional workmanship.

For some of us, tradition and history and workmanship count as part of the calculation when a purchase is made. For others it is not the case. Neither is right or wrong, it is just part of our individual differences, the same as color choice. If the most comfortable custom made Colnago at half price is the wrong color, some of us would never enjoy it. If I could get my hands on the original Raleigh 3 speed I rode as a kid, it would be the most enjoyable bike I would ever ride again, regardless of how limited the gear train and how heavy the weight. Part of what I enjoy about biking is the tradition and history and the harkening back to my childhood. But the best part is riding.

 

[Felt_Rider]

I must not be putting my bikes through enough trials and tribulation

I have yet to have problems with any of my Shimano components even after some pretty serious crashes (some components now have some cosmetic issues) and many hours of riding in heavy rain with the result of grit working its way into the components. Apart from the usual maintenance of tuning, changing cables, chains and such it seems like the best life for any group set is keeping the components clean the best you can.

I suppose we have different points of view. I have no loyalties, but have yet had a desire to put Campy on my bikes. Perhaps some day I will as I have no real partiallity to any brand name. Shimano has worked well for me and now I am trying SRAM Red and though I have just a few hundres miles on the Red equipped bike I really like it. I am still adjusting to the double tap shifiting I really like that as well. I am finding that depending on which bike I select for the day I am able to instinctively switch from Shimano shifting to SRAM shifting without much thought.

I haven't really thought much about service to the components. I figure that I have put enough hard miles on the Shimano components that I have got my money's worth out of the components. If they were to fail for some reason I would just throw it/them in the garbage and buy new ones.

I suppose we all have different perspectives.

 

[dhk2]

While a given group may not make a person faster when going uphill, I think that if someone isn't using a straight block cassette, some riders may find that a Shimano shifter may balk when downshifting when under load ...

And, while experienced riders may know that the way to work around Shimano's design deficiency is to accelerate, un-load the drivetrain, shift, and then pedal, that kluge is something that one does not need to do with Campagnolo shifters.

I think the only people who have not seen-or-heard someone's Shimano drivetrain balk when downshifting on a climb are people riding with fairly experienced riders OR they haven't passed someone who doesn't know how to compensate for the problem.

alfeng, admit I'm in the habit of not shifting under load. Perhaps it's something I learned growing up with Simplex But today tried just the opposite with DA 9 sp/Ultegra cassette. On my home hill 12% grade, popped down to the 30 ring, and banged shifts down from the 19 to the 27 and then back without letting up pedal pressure at all. The shifts were quick and crisp, absolutely no problem. Obviously you have different experience with Shimano, but on my DA 7700, loaded shifts work.

Regardless of the group, don't think this is smart practice for long-term drivetrain life due to the shock loading involved.

 

[alienator]

alfeng, admit I'm in the habit of not shifting under load. Perhaps it's something I learned growing up with Simplex But today tried just the opposite with DA 9 sp/Ultegra cassette. On my home hill 12% grade, popped down to the 30 ring, and banged shifts down from the 19 to the 27 and then back without letting up pedal pressure at all. The shifts were quick and crisp, absolutely no problem. Obviously you have different experience with Shimano, but on my DA 7700, loaded shifts work.

Regardless of the group, don't think this is smart practice for long-term drivetrain life due to the shock loading involved.

I don't think I've ever seen a post about problems shifting under load with Shimano, let alone hear anything. Dura-Ace shifted fine for me on a 22% grade, and drive train loading was certainly high. No easing up to shift. Results were the same with Record, and I'm sure they'd be the same with SRAM. Being able to shift under load would be one primary focus for any company designing a gruppo.

 

[alfeng]

alfeng, admit I'm in the habit of not shifting under load. Perhaps it's something I learned growing up with Simplex But today tried just the opposite with DA 9 sp/Ultegra cassette. On my home hill 12% grade, popped down to the 30 ring, and banged shifts down from the 19 to the 27 and then back without letting up pedal pressure at all. The shifts were quick and crisp, absolutely no problem. Obviously you have different experience with Shimano, but on my DA 7700, loaded shifts work.

Regardless of the group, don't think this is smart practice for long-term drivetrain life due to the shock loading involved.

Okay, thanks for the results of your field test. Your positive shifting experience would explain where the DA 7700 shifters' supposedly stiffer feel comes from ... i.e., there is a sight difference in the mechanism between the Dura Ace shifters and the Ultegra-and-below.

Sadly, or not, for me, I have only used Ultegra & 105 shifters. Too bad there was a differenece in the (earlier) DA & Ultegra mechanisms.

 

[alfeng]

I don't think I've ever seen a post about problems shifting under load with Shimano, let alone hear anything. Dura-Ace shifted fine for me on a 22% grade, and drive train loading was certainly high. No easing up to shift. Results were the same with Record, and I'm sure they'd be the same with SRAM. Being able to shift under load would be one primary focus for any company designing a gruppo.

There have been threads in this Forum ... again, with non-DA, Shimano shifters.

 

[mitosis]

While a given group may not make a person faster when going uphill, I think that if someone isn't using a straight block cassette, some riders may find that a Shimano shifter may balk when downshifting when under load ...

And, while experienced riders may know that the way to work around Shimano's design deficiency is to accelerate, un-load the drivetrain, shift, and then pedal, that kluge is something that one does not need to do with Campagnolo shifters.

I think the only people who have not seen-or-heard someone's Shimano drivetrain balk when downshifting on a climb are people riding with fairly experienced riders OR they haven't passed someone who doesn't know how to compensate for the problem.

well that's pretty clever. you make a statement about a shifting difficulty then in the next sentence make another one based on your first statement. what if your first assumption is wrong? all of a sudden there is no design inefficiency and the "problem" you imagine then doesn't exist.

which is my experience.

 

[alfeng]

well that's pretty clever. you make a statement about a shifting difficulty then in the next sentence make another one based on your first statement. what if your first assumption is wrong? all of a sudden there is no design inefficiency and the "problem" you imagine then doesn't exist.

which is my experience.

The shifting problem DOES exist on non-DA, 8-and-9-speed Shimano shifters [presumably, with the 10-speed Ultegra-and-below shifters since supposedly the design did not change] when going uphill & attempting to shift while the drivetrain is actually under load (vs. unloaded) ... so, if it seems as though I contradicted myself on the point, then it is a miscommunication on my part.

While some of the riders who have commented in this thread haven't had a problem when downshifting with THEIR Shimano shifters, shifting BEFORE the ascent has been discussed by others elsewhere in this Forum as their work around for balky downshifting with Shimano shifters ... downshifting onto a granny comes to mind as another suggestion, too. So, because the balky shifting has been discussed in other threads, it must be a problem which exsits beyond my personal experience -- or, is it an illusion for them, too?

FWIW. While 'I' have never used Shimano's DA STI shifters & my experience has been limited to Ultegra & 105 shifters, several years ago, I did ask ONE rider who has DA 7700 shifters w/ a full DA group (12-27 cassette) if he ever experienced a balking downshift, and he said that he had ...

I rarely ride with him, but I know that most of his riding in the past few years has been on his older bike which only has downtube shifters. Since I haven't asked him why he doesn't ride the bike with the DA 7700 shifters, until/unless I ask him, I can only speculate he wants to avoid the occasional, balky downshift ... and, I would put money on that speculation ... maybe, I would lose that bet ... maybe, not.

I don't know how flat the part of Australia is-or-isn't that you ride on ... my rides generally start at 6500 feet & end at 9000 feet. Others whom I know begin their rides at 5500 feet (where I will also start) and end at 11000+ feet. Basically, it's ALL climbing OR descending with a few false flats which only look flat because they are so long that there truly isn't any perspective ...

So, if YOUR experience echoes that of others who say that they have not experienced ANY problem downshifting with their Shimano shifters, then I say 'great' ...

BUT, this begs the question as to why the Di2 reviewers + 'new' owners are so seemingly ecstatic about the way that the Di2 shifts effortlessly regardless of the situation ... which suggest (to me) that there have been SOME occasions with Shimano's mechanical, STI shifters when the shifting wasn't effortless ... whereas, MY experience has been that Campagnolo's ERGO shifters do shift effortlessly regardless of the situation ...

Now, perhaps it could be suggested that I am such a klutz that being able to make a non-DA Shimano balk when downshifting is something exclusive to me & rarely happens with other riders (other than those few who have expressed a problem downshifting) ...

If that is what you-or-others choose to believe, then that is your prerogative ...

AND, 'I' remain steadfast in my belief that Shimano will rectify this situation (i.e., balky downshifts when under load) in the future by employing their Rapid Rise derailleurs in a future generation of ROAD groups -- from my lips to Shimano's ears.

 

[EoinC]

Interesting watching all of this to-ing and fro-ing using single-sample subjective statistics. They are incredibly convincing.
Time for me to weigh in with some meaningless drivel - I've ridden Campy Nuovo Record, Super Record, DA (Biopace Chainrings, anybody? - They're the way of the future) since the 1970's.
This single-sample statistic still rides fixed (Aaah, Suntour - No problems shifting under load - just a problem applying sufficient load). I checked with myself on ethics, aesthetic taste, maintenance, etc, and found the following:

1) Getting T-boned by a taxi did not affect the Suntour's shiftability (in facxt it shifted a whole lane).
2) The coefficient of lard in my **** is inversely proportional to the sickle's maximum speed.

Therefore everybody should stop riding what they want / can afford / are comfortable with, and continue their foray into discussing the merits of gruppo's that are likely to be much more proficient than the riders who use them.

Gears, hmm? Sounds like an interesting concept... What will they think of next?

Oh, and another piece of hearsay, one-off sample-taking - my 10 year old daughter crashed her Campy Mirage the other night (after running up the bum of my fixie), and wiped out the whole LH lever / housing doohickey... Suntour 1 / Campy 0. Does that prove anything? Not really, since I had to pay for the replacement.
Despite a decent piece of ashphalt-eating action, she didn't cry, and continued the uphill ride home, so she may have a little Suntour in her...

Anyway, carry on with your impressive ethical standoffs, while the rest of us go out for a ride.

Crappy wet and windy day here, by the way.
Cheers,
Eoin

 

[alienator]

Interesting watching all of this to-ing and fro-ing using single-sample subjective statistics. They are incredibly convincing..........Anyway, carry on with your impressive ethical standoffs, while the rest of us go out for a ride.

Crappy wet and windy day here, by the way.
Cheers,
Eoin

Wow. You're my hero. Can you spin some more inspiring yarns about fixies and Suntour? I got a chuckle out of your "gear" comment. Oooo doggie, you are a card.