Chris Horner's going to Astana



donrhummy

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Wow. A very smart move by Astana and a dumb move by PL. He's REALLY valuable for protecting/supporting the leader as he showed this year in the TDF for Cadel Evans. Don't know how hard he pushed but Evans claimed he told PL he wanted Horner back. All accounts I've read say that Horner not only protected Evans a lot but frequently would sacrifice himself to get Evans food/drink, a new bike, whatever he needed during the race. And he didn't place too shabbily for a guy doing that either: 15th overall! Only 14 guys out of almost 190 beat him. Damn good.

Astana is clearly the team to beat next year.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/nov07/nov17news
 

Bro Deal

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donrhummy said:
Wow. A very smart move by Astana and a dumb move by PL. He's REALLY valuable for protecting/supporting the leader as he showed this year in the TDF for Cadel Evans. Don't know how hard he pushed but Evans claimed he told PL he wanted Horner back. All accounts I've read say that Horner not only protected Evans a lot but frequently would sacrifice himself to get Evans food/drink, a new bike, whatever he needed during the race. And he didn't place too shabbily for a guy doing that either: 15th overall! Only 14 guys out of almost 190 beat him. Damn good.

Astana is clearly the team to beat next year.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/nov07/nov17news
In other news, Horner scheduled to win the Tour of Switzerland next year with the time trial of his life.
 

Scotttri

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donrhummy said:
Wow. A very smart move by Astana and a dumb move by PL. He's REALLY valuable for protecting/supporting the leader as he showed this year in the TDF for Cadel Evans. Don't know how hard he pushed but Evans claimed he told PL he wanted Horner back. All accounts I've read say that Horner not only protected Evans a lot but frequently would sacrifice himself to get Evans food/drink, a new bike, whatever he needed during the race. And he didn't place too shabbily for a guy doing that either: 15th overall! Only 14 guys out of almost 190 beat him. Damn good.

Astana is clearly the team to beat next year.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/nov07/nov17news
Not looking good for cadel. Astana is definately going to be the stronger team. but then again they were this year to, but looked what happened. Still stupid move by PL, they gain a good rider to support evans and then lose the other rider they had, so really evans is no better off. I'm sure Mcewan will get plenty of support though, you cant really have both a gc and sprinters team anymore
 

thunder

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Scotttri said:
Not looking good for cadel. Astana is definately going to be the stronger team. but then again they were this year to, but looked what happened. Still stupid move by PL, they gain a good rider to support evans and then lose the other rider they had, so really evans is no better off. I'm sure Mcewan will get plenty of support though, you cant really have both a gc and sprinters team anymore
Mcewen will get NO support next year. The team will be completely turned over.

It will look like this.

Evans
Popo
Cioni
Vansummeran
Van Huffel
Aerts
Vandenbroeck
Hoste
Mcewen

bubble:
Van Avarmaet
Vansevenant

Predictor Lotto really fucked up. Mcewen will be ropable, and so will Evans.
 

Eagle of Toledo

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The trouble is that pregnancy test products don't generate the same sort of capital as oil does, hence the fatter cheque-book. I'd like to see the budget stats for Astana this year, will make T-Mobile look like a local club. 30 mil wouldn't be far off...
 

thunder

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Eagle of Toledo said:
The trouble is that pregnancy test products don't generate the same sort of capital as oil does, hence the fatter cheque-book. I'd like to see the budget stats for Astana this year, will make T-Mobile look like a local club. 30 mil wouldn't be far off...
same or lesser budget.

Only 2 mill for Contador.

Vino would have been on more than that I think.
 

whiteboytrash

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I love this.......
____

VeloNews: Just a few months ago you were fairly outspoken about Armstrong and his previous Tour teams, saying, "You can't have a leader's team getting to the final climb with five guys on the front, like every year from three years back all the way back. It is impossible to ride the front with your whole team and get to the final climb with most of your team still on the front - and be ready to come back and do it day in and day out.... I don't believe it to be possible."

Now you're joining a team run by Johan Bruyneel, the director of a team that was doing things a few years ago that "didn't seem possible." How will you reconcile that?

Horner: I think there has been a change in the sport in general. From everything I've seen, the speeds in the field versus the past, everything has changed. I believe the sport is becoming better and better, from the riders' organizations to the UCI and WADA, everyone is doing everything they can to eliminate as much of the drug problem as possible. I don't have any problem going to Astana. Sure, they had problems last year with two of their biggest riders, but the addition of Johan Bruyneel changed the whole team completely to avoid those issues.

As far as the years past, well last year with Johan's team you weren't seeing five guys going over the last climb together. What may or may not have happened in the past is completely different than what you're seeing now.

I honestly believe that every team is doing what they can to stop what was happening in the past. I know Johan was asking riders for their blood results from the past, to make sure he's not getting riders who have been at a 49 hematocrit for their whole career. I had to show him my past blood results, which he asked of everyone when he was looking into riders. It was the same with CSC. I also talked to Bjarne Riis, and when I was talking to CSC he wanted to see all my blood results, what was happening in the past. I think everyone wants to see this left behind and no longer an issue. I know the riders don't want to see it; no one wants to see any more problems. The sport doesn't need to live through another nine years like the last nine years. But just look at Rabobank at the Tour - they threw out Michael Rasmussen. In years past I don't know if a team would have done that. And I'm pretty sure Johan Bruyneel isn't going to put up with anyone just disappearing for a month.
 

thunder

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whiteboytrash said:
I love this.......
____

VeloNews: Just a few months ago you were fairly outspoken about Armstrong and his previous Tour teams, saying, "You can't have a leader's team getting to the final climb with five guys on the front, like every year from three years back all the way back. It is impossible to ride the front with your whole team and get to the final climb with most of your team still on the front - and be ready to come back and do it day in and day out.... I don't believe it to be possible."

Now you're joining a team run by Johan Bruyneel, the director of a team that was doing things a few years ago that "didn't seem possible." How will you reconcile that?

Horner: I think there has been a change in the sport in general. From everything I've seen, the speeds in the field versus the past, everything has changed. I believe the sport is becoming better and better, from the riders' organizations to the UCI and WADA, everyone is doing everything they can to eliminate as much of the drug problem as possible. I don't have any problem going to Astana. Sure, they had problems last year with two of their biggest riders, but the addition of Johan Bruyneel changed the whole team completely to avoid those issues.

As far as the years past, well last year with Johan's team you weren't seeing five guys going over the last climb together. What may or may not have happened in the past is completely different than what you're seeing now.

I honestly believe that every team is doing what they can to stop what was happening in the past. I know Johan was asking riders for their blood results from the past, to make sure he's not getting riders who have been at a 49 hematocrit for their whole career. I had to show him my past blood results, which he asked of everyone when he was looking into riders. It was the same with CSC. I also talked to Bjarne Riis, and when I was talking to CSC he wanted to see all my blood results, what was happening in the past. I think everyone wants to see this left behind and no longer an issue. I know the riders don't want to see it; no one wants to see any more problems. The sport doesn't need to live through another nine years like the last nine years. But just look at Rabobank at the Tour - they threw out Michael Rasmussen. In years past I don't know if a team would have done that. And I'm pretty sure Johan Bruyneel isn't going to put up with anyone just disappearing for a month.
5 riders?

hmmm, I remember some stages, Goussev, Popo, and Hincapie were up the road, Rabo pulling the train, and Contador a LL comfortably sitting in, and probably Noval getting them bidons for much of the stage with Paulhino.

Horner is full of ****.

If anyone has got on the podium clean in the last decade, it is Cadel Evans.

Do I think he is, was, clean. Not on your life. But he is the only one with some chance.

Horner and Evans were juiced, at the minimum, prior to the tour. The rest of Davitamon probably not doing as much.
 

whiteboytrash

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thunder said:
5 riders?

hmmm, I remember some stages, Goussev, Popo, and Hincapie were up the road, Rabo pulling the train, and Contador a LL comfortably sitting in, and probably Noval getting them bidons for much of the stage with Paulhino.

Horner is full of ****.

If anyone has got on the podium clean in the last decade, it is Cadel Evans.

Do I think he is, was, clean. Not on your life. But he is the only one with some chance.

Horner and Evans were juiced, at the minimum, prior to the tour. The rest of Davitamon probably not doing as much.

Hence the small budget he speaks of !!
 

thunder

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whiteboytrash said:
Hence the small budget he speaks of !!
really, there is a big disconnect. Horner talking about riders at 49, who were they? Bingo, the Postal Bus.

Bruyneel now wanting to see numbers.

But it is not the hematocrit now that counts, I believe it is total red cells and haemoglobin. Hematocrit and haemoglobin levels are but percentages.

And the new doctors have worked out how to keep these in check.

Dr Robin Parisotto, the EPO researcher, told me as much. Fairly simple to maintain steady levels.

Hence you have Basso coming in a 43ish, and riding like he was at 60. Same with Rasmussen, same with Landis.

43 hematocrit, is not, a 43 hematocrit of years gone by. No siree.
 

Bro Deal

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thunder said:
Horner is full of ****.
Gotta agree. Horner is full of **** on this. It's funny that Velonews put him on the spot about it. There is nothing he could say but what he said. In light of Leipheimer's and Cantador's amazing second ITTs it certainly comes off as pretty lame.

Painting Bruyneel as fighting against doping is a little much. Bruyneel has been resisting the fight against doping every step of the way.
 

thunder

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Bro Deal said:
Gotta agree. Horner is full of **** on this. It's funny that Velonews put him on the spot about it. There is nothing he could say but what he said. In light of Leipheimer's and Cantador's amazing second ITTs it certainly comes off as pretty lame.

Painting Bruyneel as fighting against doping is a little much. Bruyneel has been resisting the fight against doping every step of the way.
yep, Buyneel.

aka "THE HOG"

I think he married the female version of himself. Who said opposites attract.

The Hog, meet, the Hog! Go foward and procreate, miscreant Belge-Iberian dope fiends.
 

Bro Deal

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thunder said:
really, there is a big disconnect. Horner talking about riders at 49, who were they? Bingo, the Postal Bus.

Bruyneel now wanting to see numbers.

But it is not the hematocrit now that counts, I believe it is total red cells and haemoglobin. Hematocrit and haemoglobin levels are but percentages.

And the new doctors have worked out how to keep these in check.

Dr Robin Parisotto, the EPO researcher, told me as much. Fairly simple to maintain steady levels.

Hence you have Basso coming in a 43ish, and riding like he was at 60. Same with Rasmussen, same with Landis.

43 hematocrit, is not, a 43 hematocrit of years gone by. No siree.
I have come to the conclusion that this is what explains Armstrong's performance. He started on EPO in 1995 at the latest (according to Stephen Swart). He went a little better, but still could not climb or time trial even remotely good enough to place in the top ten of the Tour. He comes back in 1998 and puts in a stunning performance at the Vuelta.

What changed in the gap between 1996 and 1998? The hematocrit cap was put in place. The performance of Ullrich and Pantani went down. Indurain decided to retire rather than race with a hematocrit of less than 50%. Armstrong's performance went up and up, to levels beyond what was seen at the end of a unlimited hematocrit era. Clearly he was doing something that increased his oxygen carrying capacity without setting off the hematocrit test.
 

thunder

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Bro Deal said:
I have come to the conclusion that this is what explains Armstrong's performance. He started on EPO in 1995 at the latest (according to Stephen Swart). He went a little better, but still could not climb or time trial even remotely good enough to place in the top ten of the Tour. He comes back in 1998 and puts in a stunning performance at the Vuelta.

What changed in the gap between 1996 and 1998? The hematocrit cap was put in place. The performance of Ullrich and Pantani went down. Indurain decided to retire rather than race with a hematocrit of less than 50%. Armstrong's performance went up and up, to levels beyond what was seen at the end of a unlimited hematocrit era. Clearly he was doing something that increased his oxygen carrying capacity without setting off the hematocrit test.
I also think Ferrari had skills wrt lactic acid levels and he was perhaps supplementing other things.

I wonder when the tests re:Armstrong's lactic acid records, were recorded. After he got with Ferrari.

Ferrari's doctoral thesis was on, or his graduate thesis, was on lactic acid levels in middle distance runners I believe.

That must have helped, lots of Armstrong's time gains were in the anaerobic 5 minute efforts on HC finishing cols.
 

fscyclist

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thunder said:
...
If anyone has got on the podium clean in the last decade, it is Cadel Evans.

Do I think he is, was, clean. Not on your life. But he is the only one with some chance.

Horner and Evans were juiced, at the minimum, prior to the tour. The rest of Davitamon probably not doing as much.
Once again, blindly defending the Australian. Why is it that everyone dopes except Evans? Or wait..Let me restate it in your words. He dopes, but if anyone was clean it would be him because he's actually St. Cadel.:rolleyes:
 

Scotttri

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fscyclist said:
Once again, blindly defending the Australian. Why is it that everyone dopes except Evans? Or wait..Let me restate it in your words. He dopes, but if anyone was clean it would be him because he's actually St. Cadel.:rolleyes:
He's perhaps more naturally talented then 99% of the pro tour
 

poulidor

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Bro Deal said:
What changed in the gap between 1996 and 1998? The hematocrit cap was put in place. The performance of Ullrich and Pantani went down. Indurain decided to retire rather than race with a hematocrit of less than 50%. Armstrong's performance went up and up, to levels beyond what was seen at the end of a unlimited hematocrit era. Clearly he was doing something that increased his oxygen carrying capacity without setting off the hematocrit test.
I heard recently that Armstrong could have been exclude from US triathlon for multi doping. Even Walsh didn't write about that rumor.
 

Bro Deal

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poulidor said:
I heard recently that Armstrong could have been exclude from US triathlon for multi doping. Even Walsh didn't write about that rumor.
I don't know about that. At that time triathlon was very small and I don't think there was any drug testing. There still is not much in the way of testing. So it is unlikely that triathlon autorities would know about what any athlete was doing. Not enough to ban someone.
 

thunder

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fscyclist said:
Once again, blindly defending the Australian. Why is it that everyone dopes except Evans? Or wait..Let me restate it in your words. He dopes, but if anyone was clean it would be him because he's actually St. Cadel.:rolleyes:
blindly defend?

I think I first said there was conflicting evidence that he had Ferrari as his coach. I thought whenever someone said he was clean, I usually shot them down.

But, if I wasa Evans and saw the timetrials of Leipheimer, and the other Disco riders.

I just SHAKE my head at those guys, they were not believable.
 

Bro Deal

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thunder said:
blindly defend?

I think I first said there was conflicting evidence that he had Ferrari as his coach. I thought whenever someone said he was clean, I usually shot them down.

But, if I wasa Evans and saw the timetrials of Leipheimer, and the other Disco riders.

I just SHAKE my head at those guys, they were not believable.
The only thing we can say about Evans is that his performance decreases over a three week Tour. It always has since he blew the 2002 Giro. Other riders, like Leipheimer and Contador, get stronger--much stronger--in the last week.