Chris King Ti headset question

[DarkRider]

First off, hello all.. I'm new to the forum, and relatively new to MTB.. I came across this forum while doing a google search on some mtb related stuff and it looks like quite a busy forum, and a great place to feel the pulse and ask the following question.

I have a Moots (see pics) Cinco, brand new custom built bike that I had the bike shop install Chris King Ti headsets on.. The bike shop applied a good coat of Ti-Prep anti-seize and installed them no problem.. Come to find out later that Moots doesn't "recommend Ti headsets". So I called several bike shops around the country (in Colorado, Oregon, California, and here in Az) that sell high end bikes, and I also called an professor of Metallurgy at MIT that I knew of and chatted about why that could possibly be. The consensus what that it should be no problem AS LONG AS Ti-Prep is used to prevent the metal from oxidizing and then seizing.. thus making it difficult (though not impossible thru heating) to remove the headset from the frame down the road, should I ever even want to do this..

Well, I find myself now in a quandary as to whether I keep my beautiful headset or replace it a Al version. Frankly I love the idea of a Ti headset, and it also looks darn good IMHO (again see pics).

I wonder if there are any other members here with Ti frame on Ti headset bikes that wouldn't mind sharing their experience and maybe even some pics with me? On another forum, I got generally positive responses on this question, but it's a much slower forum so I'd like to see if I can get more of a broad viewpoint here.

All I ask is that we just keep it civil!

Here are the latest pics.. enjoy..

 

[Adam-from-SLO]

At this point, I'd just keep/ dont even fool with the Ti. headset.. since its already on

BTW, nice bike..... do you ride it

I was not bold enough to go Moots for a Ti. frameset , but did put together a fine hardtail Ti. MTB(well... its not so "hard" of a hardtail ) finally last Dec. after researching the whole Ti. frame/component senerio for over a year. BTW, I do have a silver 7000 series alum. King headset on the MTB, and a silver Kind front hub There isn't any crazy bling-bling "look at me" flashy stuff on my MTB , just all quality parts.

.... ohhhh , my frame weights 3.3 lbs , but my fork weights 4lbs You dont see that often, where the fork on a XC MTB is heavier then the frame

 

[Powerful Pete]

Cannot really help you re: your headset question, but I must congratulate you on how beautiful that bike is...

 

[artmichalek]

The only reason you'll ever need to get that headset out is if you trash that beautiful, beautiful frame. Personally I'm not convinced of the merit of using Ti-Prep on press fittings. Either way, aluminum is just as likely to sieze to titanium as titanium is. If not more so.

 

[hd reynolds]

No sense in crabbing about a ti headset siezure on a new bike when you could be enjoying riding it. If you can't help thinkin about it change to an AL frame and keep the headset *just kidding*.

 

[DarkRider]

Thanks for the kind words and help guys.. The Ti headset is staying.

Adam, those pics of the bike where when it was brand new at home (a few days ago). I've since ridden it about 3-4 times.. but NEVER off road yet! I'm not ready to get it dirty!

Seriously.. I got that bike for the following reason. I wanted to get my 36 year old body back into shape.. Having ridden BMX for years as a teen, I was comfortable with tough bike, not some fancy roadbike.

I like a well made (American made), strong bike that I don't have to be finicky about, but I also like to mostly ride around my neighborhood which is hills, and paved roads, as well as light bike trails.. I wanted the OPTION of taking it off road on the MTB trains but I don't plan on doing it but maybe once every two weeks or so.. and not at all in Summer (Phoneix). It's like having a Range Rover.. you can use it 99% of the time as a street ride, but it won't fail you if you go off road... but if you drive a BMW 745Li you're limited to ONROAD..

 

[artmichalek]

Seriously.. I got that bike for the following reason. I wanted to get my 36 year old body back into shape.. Having ridden BMX for years as a teen, I was comfortable with tough bike, not some fancy roadbike.

I like a well made (American made), strong bike that I don't have to be finicky about, but I also like to mostly ride around my neighborhood which is hills, and paved roads, as well as light bike trails.. I wanted the OPTION of taking it off road on the MTB trains but I don't plan on doing it but maybe once every two weeks or so.. and not at all in Summer (Phoneix). It's like having a Range Rover.. you can use it 99% of the time as a street ride, but it won't fail you if you go off road... but if you drive a BMW 745Li you're limited to ONROAD..

You're kidding, right?

 

[DarkRider]

You're kidding, right?

100% serious... What's the big deal? Or are you suggesting I take up and down mountain sides every evening after work? In which case, I have to ask... do you have kids, a wife and other family obligations.. or do you just live right on top of a mountain?

 

[artmichalek]

100% serious... What's the big deal? Or are you suggesting I take up and down mountain sides every evening after work? In which case, I have to ask... do you have kids, a wife and other family obligations.. or do you just live right on top of a mountain?

I don't ride up and down mountain sides every evening after work. I ride a road bike because it's the right tool for the job (though I do take it off road quite a bit). I don't feel the need to drag around an extra ten pounds of metal just because it looks tough.

 

[DarkRider]

I don't ride up and down mountain sides every evening after work. I ride a road bike because it's the right tool for the job (though I do take it off road quite a bit). I don't feel the need to drag around an extra ten pounds of metal just because it looks tough.

I on the other hand am not riding a bike to go fast, nor am I obsessed with light weight, though it's a nice byproduct.. I ride a bike to get in shape, and don't need to be doing 35mph down the road to achieve this result.

I also don't want to invest $13,000 or $20,000 into a fleet of bikes.. so I picked just one that can do it all for me. If I was a serious Mountain Biker, I would have bought a 40lbs Iron Horse Sunday.. If I were training for the Tour De France, I would have done a 7 lb Carbon fiber bike...

I am just a joe, who wants to ride his (one) bike about an hour every day, and be able to take it where ever I want to without worries.. I could have done the hard tail, but I like the ride of the soft tail, why deny technology improvements. Finally, I want my bike MADE IN THE USA, and as many of it's components to be made in a 1st world country. If I had to buy 2-3 bikes, I wouldn't have had the funds to do it that way.

I believe I got the right bike for all of this.

 

[remdog]

Hey Fellow Moots Dude!

I've had my Smoothie with a Chris King Ti headset for a couple of years without any problems. I take it apart regurlarly for cleaning & reapply Ti prep.

Long live the Moots!

Canadian-Moots

First off, hello all.. I'm new to the forum, and relatively new to MTB.. I came across this forum while doing a google search on some mtb related stuff and it looks like quite a busy forum, and a great place to feel the pulse and ask the following question.

I have a Moots (see pics) Cinco, brand new custom built bike that I had the bike shop install Chris King Ti headsets on.. The bike shop applied a good coat of Ti-Prep anti-seize and installed them no problem.. Come to find out later that Moots doesn't "recommend Ti headsets". So I called several bike shops around the country (in Colorado, Oregon, California, and here in Az) that sell high end bikes, and I also called an professor of Metallurgy at MIT that I knew of and chatted about why that could possibly be. The consensus what that it should be no problem AS LONG AS Ti-Prep is used to prevent the metal from oxidizing and then seizing.. thus making it difficult (though not impossible thru heating) to remove the headset from the frame down the road, should I ever even want to do this..

Well, I find myself now in a quandary as to whether I keep my beautiful headset or replace it a Al version. Frankly I love the idea of a Ti headset, and it also looks darn good IMHO (again see pics).

I wonder if there are any other members here with Ti frame on Ti headset bikes that wouldn't mind sharing their experience and maybe even some pics with me? On another forum, I got generally positive responses on this question, but it's a much slower forum so I'd like to see if I can get more of a broad viewpoint here.

All I ask is that we just keep it civil!

Here are the latest pics.. enjoy..

 

[DarkRider]

Remdog, thanks for the reply! I forgot what we were talking about for a minute!

This is good news. I plan on doing the same, with an annual tune up and rebuild of the headset as well as bottom bracket.. it can't hurt.

 

[DarkRider]

BTW.. artmitchalek, I'd love your take on THIS

 

[artmichalek]

Remdog, thanks for the reply! I forgot what we were talking about for a minute!

This is good news. I plan on doing the same, with an annual tune up and rebuild of the headset as well as bottom bracket.. it can't hurt.

Well, it could hurt. Both your headset and bottom bracket have sealed cartridge bearings. I wouldn't recomend taking them apart for an overhaul. Unless by annual tune up you mean throwing out perfectly good bearings and replacing them. That would make almost as much sense as knocking out the headset cups just to look at them every year.

I'm not sure what the point of your link was. It didn't say explicitly, but I'm guessing that Shirley won that stage on a road bike.

 

[DarkRider]

Well, it could hurt. Both your headset and bottom bracket have sealed cartridge bearings. I wouldn't recomend taking them apart for an overhaul. Unless by annual tune up you mean throwing out perfectly good bearings and replacing them. That would make almost as much sense as knocking out the headset cups just to look at them every year.

I'm not sure what the point of your link was. It didn't say explicitly, but I'm guessing that Shirley won that stage on a road bike.

my link was just something I came across today and thought you might like since you ride on both MTB and road bikes..

as for the headset issue... so are you saying that to remove the headset, clean up around it, reapply ti-prep and re seat it is going to harm something? Cause this contradicts what several bike shops have told me.. they said that not doing so, you risk moisture and debris getting into the seal and causing harm..... And in the case of Ti on Ti like mine, if the Ti-Prep wears out, you also risk the ti oxidation issue.

 

[Adam-from-SLO]

I on the other hand am not riding a bike to go fast, nor am I obsessed with light weight, though it's a nice byproduct.. I ride a bike to get in shape, and don't need to be doing 35mph down the road to achieve this result.

I also don't want to invest $13,000 or $20,000 into a fleet of bikes.. so I picked just one that can do it all for me. If I was a serious Mountain Biker, I would have bought a 40lbs Iron Horse Sunday.. If I were training for the Tour De France, I would have done a 7 lb Carbon fiber bike...

I am just a joe, who wants to ride his (one) bike about an hour every day, and be able to take it where ever I want to without worries.. I could have done the hard tail, but I like the ride of the soft tail, why deny technology improvements. Finally, I want my bike MADE IN THE USA, and as many of it's components to be made in a 1st world country. If I had to buy 2-3 bikes, I wouldn't have had the funds to do it that way.

I believe I got the right bike for all of this.

So... it simply sounds like you like to ride- get in shape(boost the cardio some) , enjoy the outdoors and life ! I think most here also share the same base reasons for riding as well.

As far as what your saying when you say " why deny technology improvements" , ... well, to each his own. Most people who buy a full suspenstion rig tend to do so with a Aluminum frame(most cost affective, stiff, front/rear susp. ...... frame material is still important- but not nearly as critical as when you go hard-tail).

Personally, I do not deny technology either- man, front fork technology is WAY out there.... talk about every 3-4 years it just jumps leaps + bounds !!!! , 9-speed system at my thumb-tips , clipless pedals, V-brakes (or disc if that is your method of stopping power) , etc.

BTW, on my MTB- I currently have slicks on my wheels(if you typically ride road w/ your MTB...... you might want to invest $40 into a set for that purpose... and yes you will roll faster up/down the road ).

Also.. BTW, I concur with the other poster, having to remove your headset to clean- then reinstall should be every 5-10 years - for most riders, even riders who ride 5 days per week- HARD The bike shop who told you , that in order to "maintain" your bike , was either 1. seeing you have a high end MTB $$ , and maybe also you have $$ coming out your A$$ - so why not get this guy in our shop to spend even MORE money on his bike, or 2. did not know what they were talking about , or 1 + 2 combined

.... maybe I'll get bold enough to post pics. of my MTB here one day

 

[artmichalek]

my link was just something I came across today and thought you might like since you ride on both MTB and road bikes..

as for the headset issue... so are you saying that to remove the headset, clean up around it, reapply ti-prep and re seat it is going to harm something? Cause this contradicts what several bike shops have told me.. they said that not doing so, you risk moisture and debris getting into the seal and causing harm..... And in the case of Ti on Ti like mine, if the Ti-Prep wears out, you also risk the ti oxidation issue.

1) I don't ride a mountain bike. I ride a road bike, because I ride on the road.
2) Every time you knock out a headset and put it back in, you wear away some metal. It will loosen the fit. I'm sure the bike shops who offered to do this will also be willing to sell you a new headset in five years.
3) I think you're confused about what ti-prep is and why you need it. Ti-prep is made up of small metalic particles (mostly copper) which get smeared into the interface between the two metals and prevent them from friction welding. There's no oxidation involved, and since we're talking about a press fit neither surface is exposed to the atmosphere. As for debris, see #2. Your head tube is reamed out to about 0.004" smaller than the headset. Debris isn't getting in there, and ti-prep does not wear out.

 

[remdog]

Hey DarkRider,

I'm sensing a lot of gealousy from other riders who don't own a Moots. It's sad to say that not everyone has the opportunity to own one of these fine bikes. It doesn't matter how, when or why you ride it. As long as you ride. When the others with their aluminum or carbon bikes are thrown away for other bikes, the Moots will always be revered as an amazing ride.

As for the headset. I live in Ontario Canada, I ride in the mud in the spring & fall & occasionally a little in the snow. Removing the headset once a year for inspection, cleaning & reinstalling it isn't going to harm it at all. After all it's a MOOTS, it's not a Trek or Cannondale?

Everyone else is jealous of you.

1) I don't ride a mountain bike. I ride a road bike, because I ride on the road.
2) Every time you knock out a headset and put it back in, you wear away some metal. It will loosen the fit. I'm sure the bike shops who offered to do this will also be willing to sell you a new headset in five years.
3) I think you're confused about what ti-prep is and why you need it. Ti-prep is made up of small metalic particles (mostly copper) which get smeared into the interface between the two metals and prevent them from friction welding. There's no oxidation involved, and since we're talking about a press fit neither surface is exposed to the atmosphere. As for debris, see #2. Your head tube is reamed out to about 0.004" smaller than the headset. Debris isn't getting in there, and ti-prep does not wear out.

 

[DarkRider]

Hey DarkRider,

I'm sensing a lot of gealousy from other riders who don't own a Moots. It's sad to say that not everyone has the opportunity to own one of these fine bikes. It doesn't matter how, when or why you ride it. As long as you ride. When the others with their aluminum or carbon bikes are thrown away for other bikes, the Moots will always be revered as an amazing ride.

As for the headset. I live in Ontario Canada, I ride in the mud in the spring & fall & occasionally a little in the snow. Removing the headset once a year for inspection, cleaning & reinstalling it isn't going to harm it at all. After all it's a MOOTS, it's not a Trek or Cannondale?

Everyone else is jealous of you.

He is coming off as a bit of a "hater", but I was in denial about it until you made the point... after all I asked for some tips on a specific item, but I'm getting a lecture and attitude like "you aren't a REAL mountain biker" and "You are an idiot for not buying a road bike" in his tone.. I even tried to expand the discussion by showing him a link on riders that do both types of bike... and he comes back with attitude.

I'll buy what ever I damn well want to buy... And ride it how ever I damn well want to Period.

As for the head set... having talked to at least 10 or more pro-bike shops, a MIT Metallurgist and Professor, as well as 6 Ti Frame makers.. I've decided to keep it, and to do the Annual overhaul of all bearings as recommended by ALL of the bike shops I spoke to. Ti Prep will keep the headset from seizing, and should be checked every 1-2 years is what the guy from Seven said...

 

[DarkRider]

btw... here are some of the responses I got from real experts:

Sorry I missed your call Sam. Your MIT friend is right...but the installation does take more care. Use a high quality Ti-specific anti-seize (usually called "Ti Prep" - it is copper colored and kind of expensive - you can get it easily though) and use that for installation. You should use this on your bottom bracket as well. You still should take the headset out once a year or so and clean it and reapply the anti-seize...just as a precautionary measure. Anything that is mated with Ti should be moved around a little bit every so often (e.g. seatposts). I've never had a problem with an aluminum headset seizing in a Ti frame, even after three+ years of hard use. A good anti-seize and proper frame preparation (e.g. a good facing and chasing job) go a long way in preventing really aggravating problems. A Ti-Ti interface needs to be cared for even more diligently.

Hope that helps,
mc

Matt Chester Ti Frames

that's a great headset, go for it. just make sure to use an anti-sieze compound when installing it otherwise, the headset will fuse with the headtube.

-Foye Troute, Litespeed

Hi, Sam...

You shouldn't have any trouble doing so. You might want to use antiseize when pressing
it in. Grease would probably work just fine, but you don't want the two surfaces to gall
(essentially "weld") to each other. This would only be an issue if the headset cups are very,
very tight when installing them.

Other than that - once the headset is in, it shouldn't matter if it's ti or aluminum.

Cheers,
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles