CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR; New doubts about medicating kids



"Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 10, 2004
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 8, 2004
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> > news:[email protected]...>>
> >> >> Do you know a kid or their family who has been helped by ritalin or something? But how do
> >> >> you know it was not just the contact with
another
> >> >> adult, one to one, for a span?
> >> > As a matter of fact, yes, I know of *at least* one kid and family,
that
> > has
> >> > beenhelped by the use of methylphenidate.
> >>
> >> > My son.
> >>
> >> > He is 20, attends a prestigious school of art and design (although
the
> >> > anti-med liars keep claiming that MPH destroys creativity) on full scholarship, works 25
> >> > hours /wk as a graphic artist and designer for
a
> >> > large, well known, publisher, and has become a junior project
mamager,
> > earns
> >> > enough to be financially independent at the age of 20, and is one
heck
> > of a
> >> > all-around good kid.
> >>
> >> Will he need medication permanently, then?
>
> > Sorry, but my crystal ball is broken. He may, or may not.
>
> >> What was he like on different diets, maybe off gluten, colourings, and having pure water? I
> >> know that takes a bit to manage.
>
> > Since AD/HD is not caused by diet, why do you ask?
>
> You sound as if your mind is really firmly set on concrete on that matter.
Or
> are you playing with words?

Neither. The diagnostic protocl for AD/HD eliminates the possibility that the behaviors and symptoms
are caused by diet. If diet modification affects the patient, then they do not have AD/HD.

> Diabetes may be caused by something other than sugar, but it still helps
to
> regulate sugar intake once you have it.

Irelevant.

> From my reading avoiding salicylates may help a small subet. But is it expedient not to worry
> about small subsets. Then the present state of investgation of omega3/omega6 fatty acids calls for
> controlled
investigation.
> It is not decided.

Correct, it is not decided. However, even if it is determined that some peopl ewith AD/HD like
symptoms can be helped with these chemicals, then they do not have AD/HD.

> >> > In addition to him, I know of many other kids whose parents made the difficult choice to use
> >> > medications and have turne dout wodnerful. Strangely, or, rather, not-so-strangely, I know of
> >> > no family who has regretted the choice.
> >>
> >> You say it is a difficult choice. Did they all have to really soul
search
> >> about the docs' line? Maybe it is going down too easily for some?
>
> > No, it never goes down too easily for the people I know. And, no one
likes
> > giving their kid meds of any type. I will presume that you have no
children.
>
> I don't but what sort of fight do you put up against the doc/dentist whom
you
> are supposed to trust?

You learn about what the problems are and the methods of treatment. If you want your kid to be able
to function, and avoid the consequences of untreated AD/HD, then you choose the best treatment. Most
often, the best treatment is medication coupled with counseling, spec ed, etc.

If you do not agree with your doc, you have the right to see another one.

> >> >> With dads out of the family, or mums, too, more these days, there may not be the chance for
> >> >> kids to share
quality
> >> > time
> >> >> with adults.
> >>
> >> > And, that line of ******** was old ten years ago. If anything, kids
with
> >> > AD/HD get excessive parental attention. Russell Barkley has written
on
> > this,
> >> > and I suggest that you go find the article.
> >>
> >> Children who have music lessons, and that is often one to one, seem to
do
> >> better in other school achievement. Maybe they get lessons because they
> > are
> >> cleverer or is it that?
>
> > AD/HD kids may do better in a 1:1 environment. However, a 1:1
environment is
> > not real life.
>
> Exactly my point: modify the kids for `real life'?

No. Allow the kids to learn how to cope with real life. AD/HD prevents that. Medications allow that.

> Changes are going on in society. It is increasingly ruled by the dollar in USA. Then we have more
> unemployed persons losing their self respect. It is
up
> to us to nominate and vote in politicians who go for change which acknowledges individual
> differences and needs. People can be trained to
look
> after the perplexed alzheimic and ADHD people.

I happen to be an advocate for independence, not being looked after.

Snip.

BTW, what is your personal interest in AD/HD? Do you have one?

Or, is this merely an intellectual exercise for you?
 
In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 11, 2004 <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

>> Do you mean a protocol that diagnoses that the child has AD/HD, or a
> protocol
>> which diagnoses what type of AHDH the particular child has?

> A dignsotic protocol to determine if the patient has AD/HD. Are you aware that AD/HD is a
> diagnosis of exclusion?

>> Then we use
>> > the proper treatment protocol (did you know that there is one?)
>>
>> Finding out how the child reacts to the various ADHD treatments by trial
> and
>> error, or something better?

> For the most part, 70% or so, the best medication is methylphenidate.

What other medications/treatments are there. Is cost a factor in your `best'? Why not give a purpose
in life to carers?

With
> the various options for administering it that are avaialbe these days, the patient is forst tried
> on small does, and gradually increased until they can function better. Then, admisintering
> methodology comes in, and the doc sees if the long acting, or time release version work better.

> That is not uncommon in medicine. Many conditions are treated by trial and error.

Which is very rough on some. Is pencillin shock still a trial and error matter for the first dose?

>> > Next we may be into eugenics. Got to take
>> >> care of the long term effects of expedients, as we do not know why
>> > evolution
>> >> has retained this genetics for so long.
>>
>> > These genetics were handled 100 years ago by the availability of the frontier and having a
>> > totally different social structure than we have
> now.
>>
>> Should we be looking ahead to more illnesses and cures with future
> societal
>> developments?

> We should be looking ahead to more information on how the human brain works.

As a society we have to be careful about drugs which appear to help, that we do not overdo it. A
person takes their car to the local alcohol establishment with the intention of having a single
drink and driving home. Then after the first drink the mellow feeling flows a bit and it becomes
easier to have just one more, &c.

I know patients ask for extra ritalin. Can they judge their dose? Is society asking for extra, and
can it judge it?

How is it that society functioned with such a reduction of alcohol useage down to under half, when
the measurement after American prohibiiton was compared with the measurement before it started? I
note that by the time of the Vietnam war that consumption was back up to pre-prohibition figures. I
wonder about the outcome of the Second World War if the saloons (incidentally commonly owned by
Germans) had been allowed to continue.

> snip of rest

So since you cut:

"But the article Ilena showed us was more about other drugs. Some success with Ritalin for some
people who can tolerate it is what I suspected the irate reply to Ilena might be based on. Now let
us start thinking about the other drugs. How good/risky are they and how do you praise them? Are
they being used anything like antidepressants may be used for people when they really may need an
antibiotic?"

That must mean that your gripe with Ilena's post is only related to ritalin and not the many
antidepressants her post article was about?

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1
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"Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 11, 2004
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
>
> >> Do you mean a protocol that diagnoses that the child has AD/HD, or a
> > protocol
> >> which diagnoses what type of AHDH the particular child has?
>
> > A dignsotic protocol to determine if the patient has AD/HD. Are you
aware
> > that AD/HD is a diagnosis of exclusion?
>
> >> Then we use
> >> > the proper treatment protocol (did you know that there is one?)
> >>
> >> Finding out how the child reacts to the various ADHD treatments by
trial
> > and
> >> error, or something better?
>
> > For the most part, 70% or so, the best medication is methylphenidate.
>
> What other medications/treatments are there. Is cost a factor in your
`best'?

There are several medications, etc. for treating AD/HD. Look them up. And, when I say "best" I am
discussing effectiveness, and nothing else. You seem to have a hang-up with money.

> Why not give a purpose in life to carers?

There are many conditions which lend themselves to having a "carer", however, AD/HD is not
one of them.

> With
> > the various options for administering it that are avaialbe these days,
the
> > patient is forst tried on small does, and gradually increased until they
can
> > function better. Then, admisintering methodology comes in, and the doc
sees
> > if the long acting, or time release version work better.
>
> > That is not uncommon in medicine. Many conditions are treated by trial
and
> > error.
>
> Which is very rough on some. Is pencillin shock still a trial and error matter for the first dose?

I have no experience with it.

> >> > Next we may be into eugenics. Got to take
> >> >> care of the long term effects of expedients, as we do not know why
> >> > evolution
> >> >> has retained this genetics for so long.
> >>
> >> > These genetics were handled 100 years ago by the availability of the frontier and having a
> >> > totally different social structure than we have
> > now.
> >>
> >> Should we be looking ahead to more illnesses and cures with future
> > societal
> >> developments?
>
> > We should be looking ahead to more information on how the human brain
works.
>
>
> As a society we have to be careful about drugs which appear to help, that
we
> do not overdo it. A person takes their car to the local alcohol
establishment
> with the intention of having a single drink and driving home. Then after
the
> first drink the mellow feeling flows a bit and it becomes easier to have
just
> one more, &c.

That is one heck of a non sequitur.

> I know patients ask for extra ritalin. Can they judge their dose? Is
society
> asking for extra, and can it judge it?

You know patients ask for methylphenidate? How do you know? Are you in the office when it
allegedly happens?

> How is it that society functioned with such a reduction of alcohol useage down to under half, when
> the measurement after American prohibiiton was compared with the measurement before it started? I
> note that by the time
of
> the Vietnam war that consumption was back up to pre-prohibition figures. I wonder about the
> outcome of the Second World War if the saloons
(incidentally
> commonly owned by Germans) had been allowed to continue.

I have no interest in this.

> > snip of rest
>
>
> So since you cut:
>
> "But the article Ilena showed us was more about other drugs. Some success with Ritalin for some
> people who can tolerate it is what I suspected the irate reply to Ilena might be based on. Now let
> us start thinking about the
other
> drugs. How good/risky are they and how do you praise them? Are they being used anything like
> antidepressants may be used for people when they really may need an antibiotic?"

You mention the name of a person whom I do not disucss, respond to, etc.

> That must mean that your gripe with Ilena's post is only related to
ritalin
> and not the many antidepressants her post article was about?

I discuss what interests me.
 
"Mark ProbertFebruary 11, 2004" <[email protected]>

> You mention the name of a person whom I do not disucss, respond to, etc.

LOL ... puhleeez Probert ... you are a Card Carryin' "I Ignore Ilena" Farce Member ... which, after
just 4 minutes of on with your Posse Buddy Andrew M Langer ... you were posting your usual BS about
me under several absurd aliases ... Marla "Will Ketcher" Probert ...

You discuss me plenty ... you are just a Coward and attack me under aliases now.

www.humanticsfoundation.com/disinfoagents.htm#BarrettsParrot

www.humanticsfoundation.com/propagandistprobert.html
 
Corrected:

LOL ... puhleeez Probert ... you are a Card Carryin' "I Ignore Ilena" Farce Member ... which, after
just 4 minutes of signing on with your Posse Buddy Andrew M Langer ... you were posting your usual
BS about me under several absurd aliases ... Marla "Will Ketcher" Probert Maples ...

You discuss me plenty ... you are just a Coward and attack me under aliases now.

You and Langer signed up to be "Posse" Members for the Quack Empire ...

Who do you think you are fooling ... other than the other shills and fools?

www.humanticsfoundation.com/andysposse.htm

www.humanticsfoundation.com/disinfoagents.htm#BarrettsParrot

www.humanticsfoundation.com/propagandistprobert.html
 
In article <[email protected]>, Ilena says...
>
>"Mark ProbertFebruary 11, 2004" <[email protected]>
>
>
>> You mention the name of a person whom I do not disucss, respond to, etc.
>
>
>LOL ... puhleeez Probert ... you are a Card Carryin' "I Ignore Ilena" Farce Member ... which, after
>just 4 minutes of on with your Posse Buddy Andrew M Langer ... you were posting your usual BS about
>me under several absurd aliases ... Marla "Will Ketcher" Probert ...
>
>You discuss me plenty ... you are just a Coward and attack me under aliases now.
>

So if he discusses you directly, he's harssing you, but if he doesn't discuss you, he's a coward?

This is somehow logical to you?

But then again, you are the person who promised that if others left you alone, you'd leave them
alone. That was a lie. I didn't discuss you for a month, and you posted your **** about me more than
once a day, on average.

Oh, and are you ever going to respond to the challenge I made to you? It's been more than
half a week...

- Andrew Langer

Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own enjoyment (and the education of
others). Unless expressly stated, they represent his own views, and not those of any other
individuals or entities. He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
 
"Andrew Langer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Ilena says...
> >
> >"Mark ProbertFebruary 11, 2004" <[email protected]>
> >
> >
> >> You mention the name of a person whom I do not disucss, respond to,
etc.
> >
> >
> >LOL ... puhleeez Probert ... you are a Card Carryin' "I Ignore Ilena" Farce Member ... which,
> >after just 4 minutes of on with your Posse Buddy Andrew M Langer ... you were posting your usual
> >BS about me under several absurd aliases ... Marla "Will Ketcher" Probert ...
> >
> >You discuss me plenty ... you are just a Coward and attack me under aliases now.
> >
>
> So if he discusses you directly, he's harssing you, but if he doesn't
discuss
> you, he's a coward?

Note that there is not one shred of proof that I am Will Ketcher, AlX, or any of the people who
currently discuss her.
 
Corrected:

LOL ... puhleeez Probert ... you are a Card Carryin' "I Ignore Ilena" Farce Member ... which, after
just 4 minutes of signing on with your Posse Buddy Andrew M Langer ... you were posting your usual
BS about me under several absurd aliases ... Marla "Will Ketcher" Probert Maples ...

You discuss me plenty ... you are just a Coward and attack me under aliases now.

You and Langer signed up to be "Posse" Members for the Quack Empire ...

Who do you think you are fooling ... other than the other shills and fools?

The more Barrett & Klan lose ... the more aggressive and desperate you are to harm my good name.

Putting on aliases like "Nana" or "Anonymous" or "Marla Maples" doesn't change the fact, that you
are Mark S Probert, failed lawyer and now shill for the Quack's Web of Deceit ... and I am one of
your targets.

www.BreastImplantAwareness.org

www.humanticsfoundation.com/andysposse.htm

www.humanticsfoundation.com/disinfoagents.htm#BarrettsParrot

www.humanticsfoundation.com/propagandistprobert.html
 
In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 11, 2004 <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 11, 2004
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>>
>> >> Do you mean a protocol that diagnoses that the child has AD/HD, or a
>> > protocol
>> >> which diagnoses what type of AHDH the particular child has?
>>
>> > A dignsotic protocol to determine if the patient has AD/HD. Are you
> aware
>> > that AD/HD is a diagnosis of exclusion?
>>
>> >> Then we use
>> >> > the proper treatment protocol (did you know that there is one?)
>> >>
>> >> Finding out how the child reacts to the various ADHD treatments by
> trial
>> > and
>> >> error, or something better?
>>
>> > For the most part, 70% or so, the best medication is methylphenidate.
>>
>> What other medications/treatments are there. Is cost a factor in your
> `best'?

> There are several medications, etc. for treating AD/HD. Look them up. And, when I say "best" I am
> discussing effectiveness, and nothing else. You seem to have a hang-up with money.

I think most people & organisaitons have a hang-up with money. Otherwise why would people be
unemployed?

I am just wondering if this medication is doing something like financial economic process of
docking the tails off cows so they don't get in the way at milking time. Then they cannot flick the
flies off.

>> Why not give a purpose in life to carers?

> There are many conditions which lend themselves to having a "carer", however, AD/HD is not one
> of them.

A cow without a tail requires less care in one way and more in another.

I am not an authority on AD/HD but I have read that ailments which are widespread have genes
associated with them which provide benefits to those who have one copy of the gene, that is when
certain conditions prevail. Sickle cell anaemia genes can give some protection against malaria.
Diabetes tendency have provided prolonged life to peoples short of food.

Now you say ritalin does not affect genes, and that has merit. Maybe it is reducing the load on some
families in the conditions which prevail. But I ask whether those conditions have to prevail. It is
not just the AD/HD people who have shortened attention span, but more and more people these days. So
that relating to the tail of the condition of reduced attention span, known as AD/DH, is helpful in
relating to the changed needs of the general population. Tell me why such a huge percentage of the
USA is incarcerated? Is there more reason than the profit driven private prison system?

>> With
>> > the various options for administering it that are avaialbe these days,
> the
>> > patient is forst tried on small does, and gradually increased until they
> can
>> > function better. Then, admisintering methodology comes in, and the doc
> sees
>> > if the long acting, or time release version work better.
>>
>> > That is not uncommon in medicine. Many conditions are treated by trial
> and
>> > error.
>>
>> Which is very rough on some. Is pencillin shock still a trial and error matter for the
>> first dose?

> I have no experience with it.

Then what trial and error medical treatment systems do you know? Do you think genetic testing, for
example would reduce the iatrogenics?

>> >> > Next we may be into eugenics. Got to take
>> >> >> care of the long term effects of expedients, as we do not know why
>> >> > evolution
>> >> >> has retained this genetics for so long.
>> >>
>> >> > These genetics were handled 100 years ago by the availability of the frontier and having a
>> >> > totally different social structure than we have
>> > now.
>> >>
>> >> Should we be looking ahead to more illnesses and cures with future
>> > societal
>> >> developments?
>>
>> > We should be looking ahead to more information on how the human brain
> works.
>>
>>
>> As a society we have to be careful about drugs which appear to help, that
> we
>> do not overdo it. A person takes their car to the local alcohol
> establishment
>> with the intention of having a single drink and driving home. Then after
> the
>> first drink the mellow feeling flows a bit and it becomes easier to have
> just
>> one more, &c.

> That is one heck of a non sequitur.

It relates to caution about more medication being better when a little seems to be relief.

>> I know patients ask for extra ritalin. Can they judge their dose? Is
> society
>> asking for extra, and can it judge it?

> You know patients ask for methylphenidate? How do you know? Are you in the office when it
> allegedly happens?

I have heard of it. Does it not seem rational that if a patient gets some medication which makes
them feel a bit better, they may want to try more still?

>> How is it that society functioned with such a reduction of alcohol useage down to under half,
>> when the measurement after American prohibiiton was compared with the measurement before it
>> started? I note that by the time
> of
>> the Vietnam war that consumption was back up to pre-prohibition figures. I wonder about the
>> outcome of the Second World War if the saloons
> (incidentally
>> commonly owned by Germans) had been allowed to continue.

> I have no interest in this.

It is an example of a drug being regulated back a bit.

>> > snip of rest
>>
>>
>> So since you cut:
>>
>> "But the article Ilena showed us was more about other drugs. Some success with Ritalin for some
>> people who can tolerate it is what I suspected the irate reply to Ilena might be based on. Now
>> let us start thinking about the
> other
>> drugs. How good/risky are they and how do you praise them? Are they being used anything like
>> antidepressants may be used for people when they really may need an antibiotic?"

> You mention the name of a person whom I do not disucss, respond to, etc.

So was it Jan Drew you were sniping at?

>> That must mean that your gripe with Ilena's post is only related to
> ritalin
>> and not the many antidepressants her post article was about?

> I discuss what interests me.

Testing ritalin, various tranquilizers, on children to see if it helps is being done in a controlled
fashion then?

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1
Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
 
"Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 11, 2004
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 11, 2004
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> > news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >> >> Do you mean a protocol that diagnoses that the child has AD/HD, or a
> >> > protocol
> >> >> which diagnoses what type of AHDH the particular child has?
> >>
> >> > A dignsotic protocol to determine if the patient has AD/HD. Are you
> > aware
> >> > that AD/HD is a diagnosis of exclusion?
> >>
> >> >> Then we use
> >> >> > the proper treatment protocol (did you know that there is one?)
> >> >>
> >> >> Finding out how the child reacts to the various ADHD treatments by
> > trial
> >> > and
> >> >> error, or something better?
> >>
> >> > For the most part, 70% or so, the best medication is methylphenidate.
> >>
> >> What other medications/treatments are there. Is cost a factor in your
> > `best'?
>
> > There are several medications, etc. for treating AD/HD. Look them up.
And,
> > when I say "best" I am discussing effectiveness, and nothing else. You
seem
> > to have a hang-up with money.
>
> I think most people & organisaitons have a hang-up with money. Otherwise why would people be
> unemployed?
>
> I am just wondering if this medication is doing something like financial economic process of
> docking the tails off cows so they don't get in the way at milking time. Then they cannot flick
> the flies off.
>
> >> Why not give a purpose in life to carers?
>
> > There are many conditions which lend themselves to having a "carer", however, AD/HD is not one
> > of them.
>
> A cow without a tail requires less care in one way and more in another.
>
> I am not an authority on AD/HD

You wil lnot get an argument from me. BTW, I asked you in another message what you person interest
is in AD/HD, etc. Could you provide an answer?

but I have read that ailments which are
> widespread have genes associated with them which provide benefits to those who have one copy of
> the gene, that is when certain conditions prevail.

There is a strong genetic component to AD/HD which is now just being fully investigated.

> Sickle cell anaemia genes can give some protection against malaria. Diabetes tendency have
> provided prolonged life to peoples short of food.
>
> Now you say ritalin does not affect genes, and that has merit.

There is not one shred of evidence that methylphenidate affects genes.

Maybe it is
> reducing the load on some families in the conditions which prevail. But I ask whether those
> conditions have to prevail. It is not just the AD/HD people who have shortened attention span, but
> more and more people these days.

Do you have any basis, other than your idle speculation, that short attention spans are growing.

BTW, AD/HD is not characterized by a "short attention span."

So that relating to the tail of the condition of reduced attention
> span, known as AD/DH, is helpful in relating to the changed needs of the general population. Tell
> me why such a huge percentage of the USA is incarcerated? Is there more reason than the profit
> driven private prison system?

The US is not dominated by a profit driven prison system. They do exist, but, in my experience,
prisons are run by the states at a great cost to the taxpayer. There are people who support the
death penalty because lifetime incarceration is so expensive.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Ms. Ilena Rosenthal, posting in her
official capacity as Director of the Humantics Foundation for Women, again levied unsubstantiated
allegations, saying...
>
>Corrected:
>
>LOL ... puhleeez Probert ... you are a Card Carryin' "I Ignore Ilena" Farce Member ... which, after
>just 4 minutes of signing on with your Posse Buddy Andrew M Langer ... you were posting your usual
>BS about me under several absurd aliases ... Marla "Will Ketcher" Probert Maples ...
>

Proof for your allegations, for the umpteenth time, please?

>You discuss me plenty ... you are just a Coward and attack me under aliases now.
>

Proof for your allegations, for the _UMPTEENTH PLUS ONE_ time, please?!

>You and Langer signed up to be "Posse" Members for the Quack Empire ...
>

Again, I am happy to be associated with just about any organization dedicated to exposing
frauds like you.

- Andrew Langer

Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for his own enjoyment (and the education of
others). Unless expressly stated, they represent his own views, and not those of any other
individuals or entities. He is not, nor has he ever been, paid to post here.
 
In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 10, 2004 <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In sci.environment Jeff <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>>
>> > (...)
>>
>> >> And everyone knows that managing environment/stress helps for many disablities.
>> >>
>> >> The helpful rhythms & related success of some educational/societal environments are not so
>> >> present these days. So we modify the child chemically as an easy expedient?
>>
>> > No, as part of the overall treatment of a condition. This treatment
> includes
>> > counseling and behaviorial-based therapy.
>>
>> Counseling the school system/teachers?

> Counseling and training teachers, parents and care givers how to work with someone who cannot
> focus their attention.

>> >> Next we may be into eugenics.
>>
>> > That's a leap in logic.
>>
>> Hopefully it is a leap in *practice*. But it seems eugenics *could be* a logical followup in some
>> people's minds.

> In over 15 years, you are the first to suggest that.

I am the first to warn about a lot of things.

> They think The child is a *problem*,
>> therefore drug it, eliminate the problem, breed different pliable types, rather than adapting the
>> school system to new needs of children.

> Even with adaptation, many AD/HD kids still cannot focus their attention in the same manner as
> others. Thus, they need help in doing so.

The bright mind needs use. If uninteresting material is being presented that may be a waste. The
bright mind finds ways to make things interesting.

>> How did we get on before?

>> >> Got to take care of the long term effects of expedients, as we do not know why
>> > evolution
>> >> has retained this genetics for so long.
>>
>> > And ADHD meds do not affect genetics.
>>
>> What percetnage do you think could be taking them now, the grwoth rate and the future rate?

Because if both young new parents are taking the drug, which is more likely if the prescription rate
is increasing, then the sorts of embryoes which are surviving may adapt. That is genetic, then,
though you may not see any deformity.

With cannabis use in pregnancy the affects on offspring may not be noticed until they are around 4
years of age, and starting to try to plan and make decisions. (Who knows whether some drug or
medication of the parents is not causing increased AD/HD?)

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In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 12, 2004 <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> A cow without a tail requires less care in one way and more in another.
>>
>> I am not an authority on AD/HD

> You wil lnot get an argument from me.

No, but we can discuss whether the drugs have side effects, requiring changes in
environment overall.

BTW, I asked you in another message
> what you person interest is in AD/HD, etc. Could you provide an answer?

You feel direct experience is necessary? Or what?

Now here is something from a person with lots of it:

Linkname: ADHD URL: http://www.ADHD-information.com/ size: 488 lines

A D H D, and HOW IT CAN BE CORRECTED NOW ADHD isn't a disease; it
isn't caused by a faulty brain, bad parenting, bad diet or damage
at birth or in early childhood.

It is the result of the mode of thinking which was wired in at birth.

The bad news is that almost no schools in America and very, very few doctors have a clue as to
the cause of the problems of ADHD so they are unable to help (though they say they are trying to
help.) Most ADHD kids get into trouble at school (but they can't help it. - I'll explain why
later in this article.) [...] The underlying cause of ADHD is the way the brain is wired at
birth. It is wired to function in a specific mode, a mode which causes him to be and act
different from other children. He can't help how his brain is wired and he can't help how is life
is going. He needs help, and effective help, and he needs it now!

He needs help to learn how to control the way his brain works.

The school people have no idea how to correct his problem so they go the behavior modification
route. Behavior modification is not a way of correcting the basic problem!

How about Ritalin?

No Child Should Ever Be Put On Ritalin

There are hundreds of thousands of kids on Ritalin. And not one of them needs it or
should have it.

You say your doctor recommended it?

He may have said it will keep the kid from being so hyper. He didn't say it would correct the
underlying problem, did he! Your doctor did not says Ritalin would solve the kids problem because
he knows it can't and won't. Then why make a child take a drug so powerful it changes his
behavior? [...] THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOUR CHILD. (I am going to be right on this is in 97%
of the cases.)

The reason doctors have had little success in "curing" dyslexics, ADD and ADHD children is that
they are busy looking to find what is broken or faulty in the kids head. They missed the cause of
the problems because they started from the assumption that the symptoms of dyslexia, ADD and ADHD
indicated something broken or faulty.

Do you really think Jay Leno, Cher, John Lennon, Steven Spielberg have faulty brains, or that
Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein had broken brains!

I've got news for you. They and Disney, Whoopi Goldberg, Steven Hawkings, Beethoven, Picasso, and
many, many other famous people are/were dyslexics-ADD-ADHD .

What those famous people have in common with your dyslexic-ADD-ADHD kid is that they all think in
the same mode. When your child learns how to use his wonderful mode of thinking he will be, to a
large extent, free of the problems and able to utilize his wonderful mode of thinking to be very
successful. He has the mode of thinking of the inventor, company executive, artist.

What I'm telling you is that there is nothing wrong with your kid, AND not only that but
there is a high percentage chance that he is above average, and that some of you will find
you have a genius.

Believe me. I was trained to teach "gifted" children, and I taught the special gifted class in my
school. The cleverest of those kids was considered by his classroom teacher to be a very poor
student, lazy and a troublemaker.

Do you want me to tell you that again?? [...]
> but I have read that ailments which are
>> widespread have genes associated with them which provide benefits to those who have one copy of
>> the gene, that is when certain conditions prevail.

> There is a strong genetic component to AD/HD which is now just being fully investigated.

Breast cancer sufferers can have a different vitamin D receptor response. So you see a genetic
component. But the whole story of it is not immediately obvious.

>> Sickle cell anaemia genes can give some protection against malaria. Diabetes tendency have
>> provided prolonged life to peoples short of food.
>>
>> Now you say ritalin does not affect genes, and that has merit.

> There is not one shred of evidence that methylphenidate affects genes.

I have not said there is. You introduced the topic. But it is interesting to think of. As I started
to refer to before, when a population has widespread food deprivation they develop a `thrifty gene'.
When food is in plenty they put on weight on become susceptible to diabetes. So if a significant
portion of a population takes a drug then there may be a genetic shift.

> Maybe it is
>> reducing the load on some families in the conditions which prevail. But I ask whether those
>> conditions have to prevail. It is not just the AD/HD people who have shortened attention span,
>> but more and more people these days.

> Do you have any basis, other than your idle speculation, that short attention spans are growing.

It seems to be accepted though I have not found actual research data as yet.

Linkname: Visual Media and Young ChildrenÕs Attention Spans URL:
http://users.stargate.net/~cokids/VisualMedia.html size: 257 lines

Visual Media and Young Children's Attention Spans

by

Gloria DeGaetano [...] In her now classic contribution to
understanding media's impact on brain development, Dr. Jane Healy
states in Endangered Minds: "A 'good' brain for learning develops
strong and widespread neural highways that can quickly and efficiently
assign different aspects of a task to the most efficient system...Such
efficiency is developed only by active practice in thinking and
learning which, in turn, builds increasingly stronger connections. A
growing suspicion among brain researchers is that excessive television
viewing may affect the development of these kinds of connections. It
may also induce habits of using the wrong systems for various types of
learning."

A mature attention span comes with a mature brain. As children develop "those widespread neural
highways," Healy refers to, they also develop control and focus of higher level cortical
function...namely an attention span. Yet, with the continuing over-diagnosis and mis-diagnosis of
ADD, it seems as if an attention span were some magical treasure only to mature in a select few,
instead of a normal, natural process for all. Recent research at the National Institute of Mental
Health conducted by Peter Jensen concluded, "Extensive exposure to television and video games may
promote development of brain systems that scan and shift attention at the expense of those that
focus attention."

To many parents and teachers this is not a new revelation. In countless homes, child care
centers, and classrooms we see children: with more impulsive behaviors, less willing and able to
persevere through challenging mental tasks, hyperactive, reactive, with little or no impulse
control. Research confirms that children who watch TV or play video games for more than two hours
daily will most likely exhibit one or more of these characteristics.

Let's take a look at how this works inside the brain and what we can do about it. [...]

> BTW, AD/HD is not characterized by a "short attention span."

These people have a very good attention span when they are interested. But focussing attention on
things seemingly irrelevant to them can be a problem. In a way they are showing a very useful
ability to filter.

> So that relating to the tail of the condition of reduced attention
>> span, known as AD/DH, is helpful in relating to the changed needs of the general population. Tell
>> me why such a huge percentage of the USA is incarcerated? Is there more reason than the profit
>> driven private prison system?

> The US is not dominated by a profit driven prison system. They do exist, but, in my experience,
> prisons are run by the states at a great cost to the taxpayer. There are people who support the
> death penalty because lifetime incarceration is so expensive.

All the prisons, private included, are run at a cost to the tax payer. The tax payer pays the
private provider who makes large profits. Therefore there are probably donations to political
parties from them.

I am not sure of the economics of prison factories producing goods which have to be sold at prices
not too much below what non-prison factories produce it. Where does that money get accounted for?

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"Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 12, 2004
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>
> >> A cow without a tail requires less care in one way and more in another.
> >>
> >> I am not an authority on AD/HD
>
> > You wil lnot get an argument from me.
>
> No, but we can discuss whether the drugs have side effects, requiring changes in environment
> overall.
>
> BTW, I asked you in another message
> > what you person interest is in AD/HD, etc. Could you provide an answer?
>
> You feel direct experience is necessary? Or what?
>
> Now here is something from a person with lots of it:
>
>
> Linkname: ADHD URL: http://www.ADHD-information.com/

Please. The person is selling a book. How about someone without such a direct and obvious
financial interest?
 
In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 15, 2004 <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 12, 2004
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >>
>> >> A cow without a tail requires less care in one way and more in another.
>> >>
>> >> I am not an authority on AD/HD
>>
>> > You wil lnot get an argument from me.
>>
>> No, but we can discuss whether the drugs have side effects, requiring changes in environment
>> overall.
>>
>> BTW, I asked you in another message
>> > what you person interest is in AD/HD, etc. Could you provide an answer?
>>
>> You feel direct experience is necessary? Or what?
>>
>> Now here is something from a person with lots of it:
>>
>>
>> Linkname: ADHD URL: http://www.ADHD-information.com/

> Please. The person is selling a book. How about someone without such a direct and obvious
> financial interest?

Do you know of drug advancers without financial interest?

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"Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 15, 2004
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> In sci.environment Mark ProbertFebruary 12, 2004
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > "Brian Sandle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >>
> >> >> A cow without a tail requires less care in one way and more in
another.
> >> >>
> >> >> I am not an authority on AD/HD
> >>
> >> > You wil lnot get an argument from me.
> >>
> >> No, but we can discuss whether the drugs have side effects, requiring changes in environment
> >> overall.
> >>
> >> BTW, I asked you in another message
> >> > what you person interest is in AD/HD, etc. Could you provide an
answer?
> >>
> >> You feel direct experience is necessary? Or what?
> >>
> >> Now here is something from a person with lots of it:
> >>
> >>
> >> Linkname: ADHD URL: http://www.ADHD-information.com/
>
> > Please. The person is selling a book. How about someone without such a direct and obvious
> > financial interest?
>
> Do you know of drug advancers without financial interest?

Me.
 
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