Cipo in Le Tour, but not La Vuelta

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Richard Adams, Mar 1, 2004.

  1. On CyclingNews the teams for the Vuelta are posted, but no Domina Vacanze.

    Couldn't be snubbed, could they?
     
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  2. On 1 Mar 2004 13:26:41 -0800, Richard Adams wrote:
    > On CyclingNews the teams for the Vuelta are posted, but no Domina Vacanze. Couldn't be snubbed,
    > could they?

    2 GTs is enough for (almost) any team.
     
  3. On 03/01/2004 02:26 PM, in article
    [email protected], "Richard Adams"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On CyclingNews the teams for the Vuelta are posted, but no Domina Vacanze.
    >
    > Couldn't be snubbed, could they?

    OHMIGOD!! US POSTAL ISN'T IN THE GIRO!! COULDN'T BE SNUBBED, COULD THEY??

    --
    Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum
    pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea aye tee why you ti
    ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-ewe
    dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash
     
  4. Sonarrat

    Sonarrat Guest

    in article [email protected], Ewoud Dronkert at
    [email protected] wrote on 3/1/04 1:55 PM:

    > On 1 Mar 2004 13:26:41 -0800, Richard Adams wrote:
    >> On CyclingNews the teams for the Vuelta are posted, but no Domina Vacanze. Couldn't be snubbed,
    >> could they?
    >
    > 2 GTs is enough for (almost) any team.

    USPS isn't going to the Giro, for example.

    -Sonarrat.
     
  5. Bob Schwartz

    Bob Schwartz Guest

    Ewoud Dronkert <[email protected]> wrote:
    > On 1 Mar 2004 13:26:41 -0800, Richard Adams wrote:
    >> On CyclingNews the teams for the Vuelta are posted, but no Domina Vacanze. Couldn't be snubbed,
    >> could they?

    > 2 GTs is enough for (almost) any team.

    Unless they only ride the first week.

    Bob Schwartz [email protected]
     
  6. Sonarrat

    Sonarrat Guest

    in article [email protected], Bob Schwartz at
    [email protected] wrote on 3/1/04 8:21 PM:

    > Ewoud Dronkert <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> On 1 Mar 2004 13:26:41 -0800, Richard Adams wrote:
    >>> On CyclingNews the teams for the Vuelta are posted, but no Domina Vacanze. Couldn't be snubbed,
    >>> could they?
    >
    >> 2 GTs is enough for (almost) any team.
    >
    > Unless they only ride the first week.

    3 points

    -Sonarrat.
     
  7. Ewoud Dronkert schreef:

    > On 1 Mar 2004 13:26:41 -0800, Richard Adams wrote:
    > > On CyclingNews the teams for the Vuelta are posted, but no Domina Vacanze. Couldn't be snubbed,
    > > could they?
    >
    > 2 GTs is enough for (almost) any team.

    That is true, and it is a major question behind the Pro Tour scheme, where the 3 GTs appear to be
    obligatory.

    Have a look at the 20 teams roster for the Giro. 11 Italian . Of the foreign top 10 teams, noone is
    interested, not even QSD with their Italian handful. And among the 9 invited foreign teams a new
    outfit like Chocolade Jacques even hesitates. It's a very telling example."The Tour of Belgium and
    Dunkirk are more important to our sponsors". All this says a lot about the Giro (whose points status
    equal to thee Tour is ever more ridicule), but also about the market of cycling sponsoring. The Pro
    Tour plans disregard any market analysis. There are NO team sponsors with general global concerns
    interested in a schedule of whatever "big" races everywhere.
     
  8. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    Van Hoorebeeck Bart wrote:
    > Ewoud Dronkert schreef:
    >
    >> 2 GTs is enough for (almost) any team.
    >
    > That is true, and it is a major question behind the Pro Tour scheme, where the 3 GTs appear to be
    > obligatory.
    >
    > The Pro Tour plans disregard any market analysis. There are NO team sponsors with general global
    > concerns interested in a schedule of whatever "big" races everywhere.

    Exactly. Why would any team want to be one of the 20 top-level teams?

    Not a well thought-out plan.
     
  9. Bob Schwartz

    Bob Schwartz Guest

    Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Exactly. Why would any team want to be one of the 20 top-level teams?

    Because that's what you have to do to get into the Tour. One of the things this plan does is use
    that carrot to get teams to accept the Giro and Vuelta in order to race in the Tour.

    But I agree, this is not well thought out. You can lead a team to a GT, but you can't make them race
    it seriously. The top level teams will expand to a size where they can send token teams to events
    where they are obligated but not interested. This will not be a positive development.

    They've tried something similar with the young rider requirement for TT3 squads. Teams expanded with
    token young riders, it didn't work.

    Bob Schwartz [email protected]
     
  10. Bob Schwartz schreef:

    > Because that's what you have to do to get into the Tour. One of the things this plan does is use
    > that carrot to get teams to accept the Giro and Vuelta in order to race in the Tour.
    >

    I thinkt the whole setup is pretty disrespectful of single day races, and the spring races over here
    in particular. The UCI has shown little appreciation for the tradition, beauty or active racing they
    stand for. They fared low in UCI points, and are not included in the Pro Tour.

    But those 23-days events, they can get a breathing machine to fake an appearance matching their
    status if necessary. This affirmative action for Italian cycling, the top nation in number of big
    teams and excellent racers, doesn't fit easy with the going global discourse.
     
  11. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    Bob Schwartz wrote:
    > Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Exactly. Why would any team want to be one of the 20 top-level teams?
    >
    > Because that's what you have to do to get into the Tour. One of the things this plan does is use
    > that carrot to get teams to accept the Giro and Vuelta in order to race in the Tour.

    My question was rhetorical. I meant that in the sense that the return on investment of being a top-
    level team is not clear. Note also that these top-level teams are licensed for 4 years, and the
    proposal doesn't make it clear whether there can be some movement into or out of the category. Four
    years is a long commitment for a sponsor to make and contesting three GTs a year is going to be
    tough without an expanded roster. Expensive, and what will the sponsor get out of it?

    This is not a well thought-out plan.
     
  12. Bob Schwartz

    Bob Schwartz Guest

    Robert Chung <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Four years is a long commitment for a sponsor to make and contesting three GTs a year is going to
    > be tough without an expanded roster. Expensive, and what will the sponsor get out of it?

    > This is not a well thought-out plan.

    Years ago there was a domestic content rule. Festina, which was registered in Andorra, loaded up on
    local talent to get around this ie they had a large number of 'Pro' riders that never raced. All of
    them Andorran.

    What is the requirement for TT3's, something like half the roster has to be under 25? Its something
    like that. So a guy like Horseteef has to give jerseys and buy pro licenses for a bunch of guys that
    are willing to play along and he still gets to race as a US domestic pro.

    This really isn't going to be expensive. There are always loopholes.

    What is *really* going to suck is these teams will be sending token riders to races that they are
    required to show up to but aren't really interested in. This is a really, really stupid idea and
    will do more harm than good to races like the Giro, which is much better off with Italian TT2 squads
    that give a shit than foreign TT1's that are going through the motions.

    Someone should slap Hein in the head with a Molteni salami.

    Bob Schwartz [email protected]
     
  13. Kyle Legate

    Kyle Legate Guest

    Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
    > On 1 Mar 2004 13:26:41 -0800, Richard Adams wrote:
    >> On CyclingNews the teams for the Vuelta are posted, but no Domina Vacanze. Couldn't be snubbed,
    >> could they?
    >
    > 2 GTs is enough for (almost) any team.
    >
    Until next year's ProTour. Then 20 teams get the pleasure of doing all three.
     
  14. Kyle Legate

    Kyle Legate Guest

    Robert Chung wrote:
    > Van Hoorebeeck Bart wrote:
    >> Ewoud Dronkert schreef:
    >>
    >>> 2 GTs is enough for (almost) any team.
    >>
    >> That is true, and it is a major question behind the Pro Tour scheme, where the 3 GTs appear to be
    >> obligatory.
    >>
    >> The Pro Tour plans disregard any market analysis. There are NO team sponsors with general global
    >> concerns interested in a schedule of whatever "big" races everywhere.
    >
    > Exactly. Why would any team want to be one of the 20 top-level teams?
    >
    > Not a well thought-out plan.
    >
    Maybe nobody will apply.
     
  15. "Kyle Legate" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
    > > On 1 Mar 2004 13:26:41 -0800, Richard Adams wrote:
    > >> On CyclingNews the teams for the Vuelta are posted, but no Domina Vacanze. Couldn't be snubbed,
    > >> could they?
    > >
    > > 2 GTs is enough for (almost) any team.
    > >
    > Until next year's ProTour. Then 20 teams get the pleasure of doing all three.
    >

    And the D2 teams in Italy and Spain get bumped, Not to mention the D1 teams not in the top 20 (22?)
    who would want to ride in a grand tour. Of course, they could limit D1 to 20 teams and require them
    to have 50 riders and compete in all of the major races. Then, the D2 and D3 teams could act as the
    minor leagues to feed D1.

    -T
     
  16. Bob Schwartz

    Bob Schwartz Guest

    Tom Schulenburg <[email protected]> wrote:
    > And the D2 teams in Italy and Spain get bumped, Not to mention the D1 teams not in the top 20
    > (22?) who would want to ride in a grand tour. Of course, they could limit D1 to 20 teams and
    > require them to have 50 riders and compete in all of the major races. Then, the D2 and D3 teams
    > could act as the minor leagues to feed D1.

    I think this is an example of the creativity that we will see. What is more likely though, is
    negotiated mergers between D1 and D2 teams. An Italian D2 team merges with USP and then rides the
    Giro, perhaps also rearranging the logos on the jerseys. The D2 team gets a ticket to the big (for
    them) dance and USP is off the hook for a race that they have no interest in.

    What I am absolutely certain of is that there is no way to force teams to (seriously) contest races
    that they have no interest in. It just forces creativity.

    Bob Schwartz [email protected]
     
  17. Howard Kveck

    Howard Kveck Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Bob Schwartz <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Tom Schulenburg <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > And the D2 teams in Italy and Spain get bumped, Not to mention the D1 teams not in the top 20
    > > (22?) who would want to ride in a grand tour. Of course, they could limit D1 to 20 teams and
    > > require them to have 50 riders and compete in all of the major races. Then, the D2 and D3 teams
    > > could act as the minor leagues to feed D1.
    >
    > I think this is an example of the creativity that we will see. What is more likely though, is
    > negotiated mergers between D1 and D2 teams. An Italian D2 team merges with USP and then rides the
    > Giro, perhaps also rearranging the logos on the jerseys. The D2 team gets a ticket to the big (for
    > them) dance and USP is off the hook for a race that they have no interest in.
    >
    > What I am absolutely certain of is that there is no way to force teams to (seriously) contest
    > races that they have no interest in. It just forces creativity.
    >
    > Bob Schwartz [email protected]
    >
    >

    A good example of that is Domina Vacanze at the '03 Vuelta. Remember the "You can come, but you
    gotta bring Cipo" routine? And what happened - "Oh, he's, um, sick. Yeah, that's the ticket. Too
    sick to race the race. (snicker)"

    Hey, whattaya know, I mentioned two of the things in the subject of the thread in one post.

    --
    tanx, Howard

    "Food plus heat equals cooking"
    Alton Brown

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
     
  18. Gwhite

    Gwhite Guest

    Robert Chung wrote:

    >> Van Hoorebeeck Bart wrote:

    >>> The Pro Tour plans disregard any market analysis.

    > This is not a well thought-out plan.

    Well it is in Europe, after all.
     
  19. Howard Kveck

    Howard Kveck Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote:

    > A good example of that is Domina Vacanze at the '03 Vuelta. Remember the "You can come, but you
    > gotta bring Cipo" routine? And what happened - "Oh, he's, um, sick. Yeah, that's the ticket.
    > Too sick to race the race. (snicker)"

    Oops, I forgot to put this in:

    -----------------------------------------
    UCI sanctions Santoni

    The UCI has suspended Domina Vacanze manager Vincenzo Santoni for a month following the
    circumstances leading to the team's participation in last year's Vuelta a España.

    Domina Vacanze gained a wild card entry in the 2003 Vuelta on the understanding that Mario Cipollini
    would start the race, but the then-world champion pulled out after the prologue.

    The UCI's disciplinary commission fined Santoni 1000 Swiss francs and suspended him from Spril 8
    2004 to May 7 2004 for "incorrect and dishonest behaviour". In a statement announcing the
    suspension, the UCI said:

    "In fact, in view of obtaining a wild card for the Vuelta a España, Vicenzo Santoni had assured the
    organizer of the presence of Mario Cipollini, without in fact obtaining previously the agreement of
    the Italian champion. In order to ensure that the trade team Domina Vacanze-Elitron could take part
    in the Vuelta a España, Mario Cipollini was compelled to start in the prologue of this cycling race,
    abandoning right after due to a poor physical condition."
    ----------------------------------------

    From Cyclingnews, of course: <http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/mar04/mar03news>

    --
    tanx, Howard

    "Food plus heat equals cooking"
    Alton Brown

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
     
  20. Jenko

    Jenko Guest

    Bob Schwartz wrote:
    > What is more likely though, is negotiated mergers between D1 and D2 teams. An Italian D2 team
    > merges with USP and then rides the Giro, perhaps also rearranging the logos on the jerseys. The D2
    > team gets a ticket to the big (for them) dance and USP is off the hook for a race that they have
    > no interest in.

    That consolidation is already happening. See, for instance, Relax (the skinny Spanish climbers) -
    Bodysol (the bulky Belgian roleurs). The fact that Lefevre is both behind this team and the ProTour
    plan is quite telling.

    Jenko
     
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