Civil Unrest in France, What Gives?



Don Shipp

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Since it can not be demonstrated that there is a link between the riots in France and the Iranian pronouncement that Israel must be destroyed, I am starting a new thread dedicated to the riots.
 

Carrera

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Let me be the first :)
Here is what Melenie Phillips writes about the riots. They are not specifically my own views but it's now up to Boogers and Fred to challenge her thoughts that the rioters claim to have captured France as a kind of political gesture. Whether she is right or not I have no idea:

Why France is burning

"What started as an ugly localised disturbance in Clichy-sous-Bois — a grotty Paris suburb — after two Muslim youths were accidentally electrocuted has spiralled into an unprecedented national crisis. Extreme violent disorder has spread to cities such as Toulouse, Lille, Nantes, the cathedral town of Evreux in Normandy and even to the centre of Paris.

Thousands of cars have been set on fire and hundreds of people arrested across France. The rioters have torched post offices and fire stations, schools and synagogues, buses and warehouses, fired upon police, and doused a handicapped woman with petrol and set her alight.

Nicolas Sarkozy, the tough-minded Interior Minister, has been blamed for inflaming the situation by his uncompromising language. French policy in general has been blamed for herding poor Arabs into suburban ghettoes where they have been left to fester in high unemployment and poverty.

The disturbances are thus being portrayed as race riots caused by official discrimination and insensitivity. But this is a gross misreading of the situation. It is far more profound and intractable. What we are seeing is, in effect, a French intifada: an uprising by French Muslims against the state.

When the police tried to take back the streets, they were driven out with the demand that they leave what the protesters called the ‘occupied territories’. And far from the claim that the disturbances have been caused by French policy of segregating Muslims into ghettoes, this is a war being waged for separate development.

Some Muslims have even called for the introduction of the ancient Ottoman ‘millet’ system of autonomous development for different communities.

The director of the Great Mosque of Paris, Dalil Boubakeur, has previously suggested that France should be regarded as a ‘house of covenant’, by which he appears to mean that France should enter into an agreement with its Muslims to grant them autonomy within the state.

His response to the current violence is not to take steps to bring his own community under control but to suggest instead that the French government shows ‘respect’ and sends ‘a message of peace’.

But M. Sarkozy and the police are determined to take back the streets. The Muslims are equally determined to keep territory they feel they have conquered from the French state with which they feel no identification.

This crisis, however, did not start with the electrocution tragedy in Clichy-sous-Bois. It has been going on for decades. The scale of it is astonishing. Nine thousand police cars have been torched or stoned since the beginning of this year. The problem has not been M. Sarkozy’s tough approach. On the contrary — until now this permanent grumbling insurrection has simply been ignored.

For more than twenty years France’s Muslim areas have been out of control. Indeed, they only turned into Muslim ghettoes in the first place because Muslim violence and harassment forced everyone else out. And they became no-go areas for the police, seen by the Muslims as occupation forces entering their territory.

In schools in such areas, teachers trying to teach French or European history have been threatened with their lives by both pupils and their parents. In some cases young French people have converted to Islam just to escape the harassment.

Blaming an official policy of segregation is wide of the mark. The fact is that French Muslims want to be segregated. The ghettoes are a way of ensuring a separate Islamic existence without having to assimilate into French society.

The fact is that whatever policies different European countries have pursued to deal with minorities, they have not cracked this problem. France has enforced a rigid policy of state secularism and assumed that all minorities would adopt French values simply by being French.

By contrast, the British and other Europeans have adopted multiculturalism, which means giving minorities equal status to the majority, and have bent over backwards to be accommodating to them and not give offence.

Yet while France was burning, there were riots over several days in Denmark over the publication of cartoons satirising the prophet Mohammed. In the super-tolerant Netherlands, the film-maker Theo van Gogh was murdered exactly a year ago because he had made an ‘insulting’ film about Islam. The Dutch immigration minister has had to wear a bullet-proof vest after shots were fired into her office, and death threats have been made against other ministers who have spoken against Islamist violence.

In Britain, British Muslims turned themselves into human bombs last July to murder as many of their fellow citizens as they could. We are told this was because of the war in Iraq. But France was a principal opponent of that war, and yet it is now being torched from Normandy to the Mediterranean.

For every country, a different reason can be found to blame it for the attacks being mounted upon it. Yet the common factor is the hostility of Muslims to the countries in which they have settled.

Clearly, not all fall into this category. Thousands of British Muslims are highly integrated and live law-abiding and productive lives. But it is equally clear that across Europe, those moderates are either unable or unwilling to stop those who want to impose their values on the majority.

And European governments have played into their hands. As the writer Bat Ye’Or reveals in her book Eurabia, the European Union and the Arab League entered into a series of official agreements some thirty years ago guaranteeing that Muslim immigrants in Europe would not be compelled to adapt in any way ‘to the customs of the host countries.’

This is all bound up with the erosion of national identities across Europe. This has affected even France, once a ferocious proponent of French culture which was imposed through a centralised schools system, a strong police force and national military service.

But now the schools system and the police have been weakened and national service has gone. Banning the hijab (Islamic headscarf) in schools represented a flickering of the old national certainty as France sniffed the danger that had arisen in its midst. But it was too little, and maybe too late.

Even now Britain, France and the rest of Europe are still in varying stages of denial over Muslim unrest. Reluctant even to admit that religion is central to this phenomenon, they look instead for ways to blame themselves and use the insult of ‘Islamophobia’ to shut down debate.

The warning for us from the disturbing events in France could not be clearer. We must end the ruinous doctrine of multiculturalism and reassert British identity and British values — and insist that although Muslims are a valued minority, they must abide by majority rules.

But if France fails to hold the line, the fall-out will be incalculable for us and for all of Europe."






Don Shipp said:
Since it can not be demonstrated that there is a link between the riots in France and the Iranian pronouncement that Israel must be destroyed, I am starting a new thread dedicated to the riots.
 

Cannibal2

New Member
Oct 12, 2005
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Carrera said:
Let me be the first :)
Here is what Melenie Phillips writes about the riots. They are not specifically my own views but it's now up to Boogers and Fred to challenge her thoughts that the rioters claim to have captured France as a kind of political gesture. Whether she is right or not I have no idea:

Why France is burning

"What started as an ugly localised disturbance in Clichy-sous-Bois — a grotty Paris suburb — after two Muslim youths were accidentally electrocuted has spiralled into an unprecedented national crisis. Extreme violent disorder has spread to cities such as Toulouse, Lille, Nantes, the cathedral town of Evreux in Normandy and even to the centre of Paris.

Thousands of cars have been set on fire and hundreds of people arrested across France. The rioters have torched post offices and fire stations, schools and synagogues, buses and warehouses, fired upon police, and doused a handicapped woman with petrol and set her alight.

Nicolas Sarkozy, the tough-minded Interior Minister, has been blamed for inflaming the situation by his uncompromising language. French policy in general has been blamed for herding poor Arabs into suburban ghettoes where they have been left to fester in high unemployment and poverty.

The disturbances are thus being portrayed as race riots caused by official discrimination and insensitivity. But this is a gross misreading of the situation. It is far more profound and intractable. What we are seeing is, in effect, a French intifada: an uprising by French Muslims against the state.

When the police tried to take back the streets, they were driven out with the demand that they leave what the protesters called the ‘occupied territories’. And far from the claim that the disturbances have been caused by French policy of segregating Muslims into ghettoes, this is a war being waged for separate development.

Some Muslims have even called for the introduction of the ancient Ottoman ‘millet’ system of autonomous development for different communities.

The director of the Great Mosque of Paris, Dalil Boubakeur, has previously suggested that France should be regarded as a ‘house of covenant’, by which he appears to mean that France should enter into an agreement with its Muslims to grant them autonomy within the state.

His response to the current violence is not to take steps to bring his own community under control but to suggest instead that the French government shows ‘respect’ and sends ‘a message of peace’.

But M. Sarkozy and the police are determined to take back the streets. The Muslims are equally determined to keep territory they feel they have conquered from the French state with which they feel no identification.

This crisis, however, did not start with the electrocution tragedy in Clichy-sous-Bois. It has been going on for decades. The scale of it is astonishing. Nine thousand police cars have been torched or stoned since the beginning of this year. The problem has not been M. Sarkozy’s tough approach. On the contrary — until now this permanent grumbling insurrection has simply been ignored.

For more than twenty years France’s Muslim areas have been out of control. Indeed, they only turned into Muslim ghettoes in the first place because Muslim violence and harassment forced everyone else out. And they became no-go areas for the police, seen by the Muslims as occupation forces entering their territory.

In schools in such areas, teachers trying to teach French or European history have been threatened with their lives by both pupils and their parents. In some cases young French people have converted to Islam just to escape the harassment.

Blaming an official policy of segregation is wide of the mark. The fact is that French Muslims want to be segregated. The ghettoes are a way of ensuring a separate Islamic existence without having to assimilate into French society.

The fact is that whatever policies different European countries have pursued to deal with minorities, they have not cracked this problem. France has enforced a rigid policy of state secularism and assumed that all minorities would adopt French values simply by being French.

By contrast, the British and other Europeans have adopted multiculturalism, which means giving minorities equal status to the majority, and have bent over backwards to be accommodating to them and not give offence.

Yet while France was burning, there were riots over several days in Denmark over the publication of cartoons satirising the prophet Mohammed. In the super-tolerant Netherlands, the film-maker Theo van Gogh was murdered exactly a year ago because he had made an ‘insulting’ film about Islam. The Dutch immigration minister has had to wear a bullet-proof vest after shots were fired into her office, and death threats have been made against other ministers who have spoken against Islamist violence.

In Britain, British Muslims turned themselves into human bombs last July to murder as many of their fellow citizens as they could. We are told this was because of the war in Iraq. But France was a principal opponent of that war, and yet it is now being torched from Normandy to the Mediterranean.

For every country, a different reason can be found to blame it for the attacks being mounted upon it. Yet the common factor is the hostility of Muslims to the countries in which they have settled.

Clearly, not all fall into this category. Thousands of British Muslims are highly integrated and live law-abiding and productive lives. But it is equally clear that across Europe, those moderates are either unable or unwilling to stop those who want to impose their values on the majority.

And European governments have played into their hands. As the writer Bat Ye’Or reveals in her book Eurabia, the European Union and the Arab League entered into a series of official agreements some thirty years ago guaranteeing that Muslim immigrants in Europe would not be compelled to adapt in any way ‘to the customs of the host countries.’

This is all bound up with the erosion of national identities across Europe. This has affected even France, once a ferocious proponent of French culture which was imposed through a centralised schools system, a strong police force and national military service.

But now the schools system and the police have been weakened and national service has gone. Banning the hijab (Islamic headscarf) in schools represented a flickering of the old national certainty as France sniffed the danger that had arisen in its midst. But it was too little, and maybe too late.

Even now Britain, France and the rest of Europe are still in varying stages of denial over Muslim unrest. Reluctant even to admit that religion is central to this phenomenon, they look instead for ways to blame themselves and use the insult of ‘Islamophobia’ to shut down debate.

The warning for us from the disturbing events in France could not be clearer. We must end the ruinous doctrine of multiculturalism and reassert British identity and British values — and insist that although Muslims are a valued minority, they must abide by majority rules.

But if France fails to hold the line, the fall-out will be incalculable for us and for all of Europe."
What gives?
 

Don Shipp

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May 20, 2005
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Carrera said:
Let me be the first :)
Here is what Melenie Phillips writes about the riots. They are not specifically my own views but it's now up to Boogers and Fred to challenge her thoughts that the rioters claim to have captured France as a kind of political gesture. Whether she is right or not I have no idea:

Why France is burning

"What started as an ugly localised disturbance in Clichy-sous-Bois — a grotty Paris suburb — after two Muslim youths were accidentally electrocuted has spiralled into an unprecedented national crisis. Extreme violent disorder has spread to cities such as Toulouse, Lille, Nantes, the cathedral town of Evreux in Normandy and even to the centre of Paris.

Thousands of cars have been set on fire and hundreds of people arrested across France. The rioters have torched post offices and fire stations, schools and synagogues, buses and warehouses, fired upon police, and doused a handicapped woman with petrol and set her alight.

Nicolas Sarkozy, the tough-minded Interior Minister, has been blamed for inflaming the situation by his uncompromising language. French policy in general has been blamed for herding poor Arabs into suburban ghettoes where they have been left to fester in high unemployment and poverty.

The disturbances are thus being portrayed as race riots caused by official discrimination and insensitivity. But this is a gross misreading of the situation. It is far more profound and intractable. What we are seeing is, in effect, a French intifada: an uprising by French Muslims against the state.

When the police tried to take back the streets, they were driven out with the demand that they leave what the protesters called the ‘occupied territories’. And far from the claim that the disturbances have been caused by French policy of segregating Muslims into ghettoes, this is a war being waged for separate development.

Some Muslims have even called for the introduction of the ancient Ottoman ‘millet’ system of autonomous development for different communities.

The director of the Great Mosque of Paris, Dalil Boubakeur, has previously suggested that France should be regarded as a ‘house of covenant’, by which he appears to mean that France should enter into an agreement with its Muslims to grant them autonomy within the state.

His response to the current violence is not to take steps to bring his own community under control but to suggest instead that the French government shows ‘respect’ and sends ‘a message of peace’.

But M. Sarkozy and the police are determined to take back the streets. The Muslims are equally determined to keep territory they feel they have conquered from the French state with which they feel no identification.

This crisis, however, did not start with the electrocution tragedy in Clichy-sous-Bois. It has been going on for decades. The scale of it is astonishing. Nine thousand police cars have been torched or stoned since the beginning of this year. The problem has not been M. Sarkozy’s tough approach. On the contrary — until now this permanent grumbling insurrection has simply been ignored.

For more than twenty years France’s Muslim areas have been out of control. Indeed, they only turned into Muslim ghettoes in the first place because Muslim violence and harassment forced everyone else out. And they became no-go areas for the police, seen by the Muslims as occupation forces entering their territory.

In schools in such areas, teachers trying to teach French or European history have been threatened with their lives by both pupils and their parents. In some cases young French people have converted to Islam just to escape the harassment.

Blaming an official policy of segregation is wide of the mark. The fact is that French Muslims want to be segregated. The ghettoes are a way of ensuring a separate Islamic existence without having to assimilate into French society.

The fact is that whatever policies different European countries have pursued to deal with minorities, they have not cracked this problem. France has enforced a rigid policy of state secularism and assumed that all minorities would adopt French values simply by being French.

By contrast, the British and other Europeans have adopted multiculturalism, which means giving minorities equal status to the majority, and have bent over backwards to be accommodating to them and not give offence.

Yet while France was burning, there were riots over several days in Denmark over the publication of cartoons satirising the prophet Mohammed. In the super-tolerant Netherlands, the film-maker Theo van Gogh was murdered exactly a year ago because he had made an ‘insulting’ film about Islam. The Dutch immigration minister has had to wear a bullet-proof vest after shots were fired into her office, and death threats have been made against other ministers who have spoken against Islamist violence.

In Britain, British Muslims turned themselves into human bombs last July to murder as many of their fellow citizens as they could. We are told this was because of the war in Iraq. But France was a principal opponent of that war, and yet it is now being torched from Normandy to the Mediterranean.

For every country, a different reason can be found to blame it for the attacks being mounted upon it. Yet the common factor is the hostility of Muslims to the countries in which they have settled.

Clearly, not all fall into this category. Thousands of British Muslims are highly integrated and live law-abiding and productive lives. But it is equally clear that across Europe, those moderates are either unable or unwilling to stop those who want to impose their values on the majority.

And European governments have played into their hands. As the writer Bat Ye’Or reveals in her book Eurabia, the European Union and the Arab League entered into a series of official agreements some thirty years ago guaranteeing that Muslim immigrants in Europe would not be compelled to adapt in any way ‘to the customs of the host countries.’

This is all bound up with the erosion of national identities across Europe. This has affected even France, once a ferocious proponent of French culture which was imposed through a centralised schools system, a strong police force and national military service.

But now the schools system and the police have been weakened and national service has gone. Banning the hijab (Islamic headscarf) in schools represented a flickering of the old national certainty as France sniffed the danger that had arisen in its midst. But it was too little, and maybe too late.

Even now Britain, France and the rest of Europe are still in varying stages of denial over Muslim unrest. Reluctant even to admit that religion is central to this phenomenon, they look instead for ways to blame themselves and use the insult of ‘Islamophobia’ to shut down debate.

The warning for us from the disturbing events in France could not be clearer. We must end the ruinous doctrine of multiculturalism and reassert British identity and British values — and insist that although Muslims are a valued minority, they must abide by majority rules.

But if France fails to hold the line, the fall-out will be incalculable for us and for all of Europe."
That is too much to read in one go; would you care to paraphrase it?
 

Don Shipp

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Cannibal2 said:
What gives?
If the French honestly believed that their culture and democracy were under threat from Islam, they would nuke Mecca.
 

Chance3290

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I thought that the majority must bow down to those that whine the most. Isn't that the policy of most governments?
 

limerickman

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Jan 5, 2004
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The Republic of France operates on the concept that everyone - everyone in France - are all equal and all are French.
This was the concept of 1789.

But this doesn't accord with reality where people emigrating to France do not enjoy the same benefits as the same generic French people.
And this part of the problem.

There is a sizable population from the former French colonies - who are nominally French in terms of nationality but who in reality don't enjoy the attributes accorded to French citizens.
They don't have the same employment/educational possibilities as generic French people.

Needless to say this isn't an excuse to go out and petrol bomb cars...
 

jhuskey

Moderator
Oct 6, 2003
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MountainPro said:
thats not the Terminator, it's the Gift.

Could be, but it is also from the Terminator and is emphasized into a double entendre by the final line in the movie.

"A storm is coming". "Yes I know".
 

ptlwp

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Oct 6, 2005
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jhuskey said:
Could be, but it is also from the Terminator and is emphasized into a double entendre by the final line in the movie.

"A storm is coming". "Yes I know".
Chances are now, I'll never get to Paris to see Pere Lechaise and Jim Morrison's grave.......tragedy of all tragedies.....didn't live to see Paris "Ligh My Fire"...
 

James Bruce Gil

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Aug 10, 2003
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limerickman said:
The Republic of France operates on the concept that everyone - everyone in France - are all equal and all are French.
This was the concept of 1789.

But this doesn't accord with reality where people emigrating to France do not enjoy the same benefits as the same generic French people.
And this part of the problem.

There is a sizable population from the former French colonies - who are nominally French in terms of nationality but who in reality don't enjoy the attributes accorded to French citizens.
They don't have the same employment/educational possibilities as generic French people.

Needless to say this isn't an excuse to go out and petrol bomb cars...

Limerick,

I think your assessment is spot on.

I have just returned from Tahiti (a French colony) where the indigenous polynesians do not enjoy the privilege that the genuine Francoise citizens have. In the past four or five years I have made similar observations in Mauritious, New Calidonia & La Reunion when travelling.

It almost appears that "Liberty, fraternity & equality" is for the Francois.

I think another French revolution is approaching.

Kind regards,
 

FredC

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Oct 22, 2004
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ptlwp said:
Chances are now, I'll never get to Paris to see Pere Lechaise and Jim Morrison's grave.......tragedy of all tragedies.....didn't live to see Paris "Ligh My Fire"...
I wouldn't bother if I were you Old Mother Hippy. The Parisian Authorities are thinking of digging him up, putting him in a skip and sending him back to America. Jims supporters daub directions on othe peoples graves.
 

limerickman

Well-Known Member
Jan 5, 2004
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James Bruce Gil said:
Limerick,

I think your assessment is spot on.

I have just returned from Tahiti (a French colony) where the indigenous polynesians do not enjoy the privilege that the genuine Francoise citizens have. In the past four or five years I have made similar observations in Mauritious, New Calidonia & La Reunion when travelling.

It almost appears that "Liberty, fraternity & equality" is for the Francois.

I think another French revolution is approaching.

Kind regards,

Merci !

JBG - any prediction for the Eng V Aus game on Saturday (rugby union) ?
 

James Bruce Gil

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limerickman said:
Merci !

JBG - any prediction for the Eng V Aus game on Saturday (rugby union) ?

Limerick,

You fellows know how to stick it in!

The Wobblies have lost their last six matches in a row. They couldn't win a woman in a brothel at the moment. Still the optimist in me hopes for a draw!!

Kind regards,
 

ptlwp

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Oct 6, 2005
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Well, Ole Mother Hippy gots a friend whose Dad did two tours in WWII and 3 years ago, sometime after 9/11, (having done a tour in North Africa - Patton and Monty, you see), predicted that this is exactly what was going to happen and was he ever right!!!


He said "wait until all the folk who were colonialized under European countries and allowed free passage back to the mother land....they will do a job in Europe, you ain't seen nothing yet".
Old Mother Hippie
 

James Bruce Gil

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Aug 10, 2003
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ptlwp said:
Well, Ole Mother Hippy gots a friend whose Dad did two tours in WWII and 3 years ago, sometime after 9/11, (having done a tour in North Africa - Patton and Monty, you see), predicted that this is exactly what was going to happen and was he ever right!!!


He said "wait until all the folk who were colonialized under European countries and allowed free passage back to the mother land....they will do a job in Europe, you ain't seen nothing yet".
Old Mother Hippie

OMH,

Glad you solved your problem with the light weight bike. I know what you mean about steel, its like a good woman, when you get hold of it its nice to know there's something substantial there.

I think the problems for France are just budding and when they come into full bloom, then I'm glad I live on the other side of the globe. I think it was ill advised of the French government to ban religious dress in schools.

While I much rather the naked state myself, surely clothing is a matter of choice.

Kind regards,
 

ptlwp

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Oct 6, 2005
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James Bruce Gil said:
OMH,

Glad you solved your problem with the light weight bike. I know what you mean about steel, its like a good woman, when you get hold of it its nice to know there's something substantial there.

I think the problems for France are just budding and when they come into full bloom, then I'm glad I live on the other side of the globe. I think it was ill advised of the French government to ban religious dress in schools.

While I much rather the naked state myself, surely clothing is a matter of choice.

Kind regards,
I am wickedly against underwear, myself...darn stuff, burn the bra and all that!!! They (folks from everyplace) duke it out amongst the haves and have nots is/was/will be eternal, but when in Rome, do as the Roman do, I guess. For instance, if everyone spoke their "mother tongue" here in the US, just about no body would be able to talk to each other, i.e, Italians, Irish, Indians, French, Africans, Asians.....all came together and are able to learn, accept and speak English.....one experiment in civilization that did work, apparently.

Peace,
OMH
 

James Bruce Gil

New Member
Aug 10, 2003
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ptlwp said:
I am wickedly against underwear, myself...darn stuff, burn the bra and all that!!! They (folks from everyplace) duke it out amongst the haves and have nots is/was/will be eternal, but when in Rome, do as the Roman do, I guess. For instance, if everyone spoke their "mother tongue" here in the US, just about no body would be able to talk to each other, i.e, Italians, Irish, Indians, French, Africans, Asians.....all came together and are able to learn, accept and speak English.....one experiment in civilization that did work, apparently.

Peace,
OMH

OMH,

Never been keen on the Reg Grundies my-self. I guess you could say either I am a born commando or a true swinger.

Personally I've never been concerned about language either as it usually only takes me a day or two to understand enough of the local language to get by.

With regard to the Francoise; I have noticed that they take exception to others speaking their own native language. In Paris, they even take exception to those who attempt to speak French and don't do a very good job of it.

Out of Paris they find it amusing that you try and are not so seriously affronted by poor attempts, but still look down their noses at you. I find this very interesting since they still seem want you to spend their money with them.

Seemingly, there are two kinds of customers, but only one type of money!

Still we should not forget that they had a substantial portion of their population that were willing to co-operate with ******.

KInd regards,