Civil Unrest in France, What Gives?

[limerickman]

Its difficult for any nation to rewrite 300 years of history. Starting with recent history and trying to live in a civilized, productive manner seems to make more sense. Wester civilization has produced what most would descrbe as both.(civilized and productive) I am not trying to say it has no faults, but the 3rd world countries still seem to be trying to get in and not out. Should milions of muslims be allowed to conquer France or England via mass imagration.???.......... I cant speak for euros, but most americans like it when someone comes to the U.S. and does well be getting an education or starting a business. That doesnt happen when too many come in a short period. Best regards BW

As a principle, i would agree with the idea that immigrants ought to try to integrate in to a society as much as possible.

Unfortunately, it appears that a lot of "first world" societies want immigrants to staff jobs that native citizens are not prepared to do, while denying those same immigrants the full benefits of citizenry.
And I think that this is part of the problem.

In conjunction with this, there is no doubt that a percentage of immigrants do not wish to integrate to their host society and this is the other part of the problem too.
I believe that what you saw in France is a confluence of both issues : where the marginalised people decided to vent their anger.

 

[darkboong]

Its difficult for any nation to rewrite 300 years of history.

A nation can make a start by not invading other countries.

Starting with recent history and trying to live in a civilized, productive manner seems to make more sense.

You mean overlook the mass immigration and genocide that the White Wobble Bottoms have perpetrated ? I can see your point, the here and now thing is a good starting point. But I don't think your view of what's going on here and now is actually rational or informed.

Wester civilization has produced what most would descrbe as both.(civilized and productive) I am not trying to say it has no faults, but the 3rd world countries still seem to be trying to get in and not out.

The Third World is a product of the West plundering those nations in the first place. Until you can accept that I don't think you are entitled to make a call on which cultures are more civilized or productive. Our lifestlyes have been subsidised by the suffering and poverty of the colonies matey.

Should milions of muslims be allowed to conquer France or England via mass imagration.???

That ain't what is going on, regardless of what you want to believe.

.......... I cant speak for euros, but most americans like it when someone comes to the U.S. and does well be getting an education or starting a business. That doesnt happen when too many come in a short period. Best regards BW

You appear to know **** all about immigration as far as the UK goes Don Juan.

Take the Turkish for example. I live next door to a Turkish dominated area. Couple of big Mosques, hundreds of Turkish restaurants that serve the most succulent Kebabs you have ever had the privilege to even look at, let alone smell or eat. Some wear Hijabs (not allowed where they come from), there is even the odd Burkha too, some enjoy a Raki and a beer or two, almost all of those folks are Muslim.

They work hard and some of them do quite well, and they are actually quite friendly and polite too. That ain't my idea of an Invasion, and I am bloody glad that they (at present) can express themselves and their culture and talk Turkish in the street and use Turkish on their signs. If they couldn't do that there would be bugger all money coming into the area and it would be a shithole slum. The *difference* generates jobs and oportunity, take that away from them and they are at a serious disadvantage.

 

[Carrera]

Agreed, more or less.
I don't have any axe to grind over Chinese, Jews, Moslems or whoever migrating in search of a better life. Those who do should be fully integrated and given the same opportunities as every other citizen.
As you said, though, this is not what has been happening.
In France, the large immigrant community has probably been excluded from the more lucrative job market opportunities in the same was as many Afro Americans in the U.S.
The problem is, this happens to all foreigners, even the Brits who live in Spain and find employment within their own communities.
My own view is that migration should only be used to fill employment shortages where the imported skills are proved to be necessary (language teachers, medics, foreign businessmen, I.T. specialists e.t.c.). I see no reason why menial jobs shouldn't be carried out by cash-strapped students (I recall Krushchev used to send Russian students out to work on collective farms in the sixties to kill two birds with one stone).
So, I think controlled immigration is O.K. and that those who do come in should be fully integrated. But where I differ from everybody else is I believe in cultural diversity as opposed to multiculturalism.
Cultural diversity simply means you allow controlled immigration but make sure you preserve your own cultural values and traditions in the process. Multiculturalism has to do with unlimited immigration and the acceptance that the values and ideals of the host country will inevitably change in the process.

As a principle, i would agree with the idea that immigrants ought to try to integrate in to a society as much as possible.

Unfortunately, it appears that a lot of "first world" societies want immigrants to staff jobs that native citizens are not prepared to do, while denying those same immigrants the full benefits of citizenry.
And I think that this is part of the problem.

In conjunction with this, there is no doubt that a percentage of immigrants do not wish to integrate to their host society and this is the other part of the problem too.
I believe that what you saw in France is a confluence of both issues : where the marginalised people decided to vent their anger.

 

[limerickman]

In France, the large immigrant community has probably been excluded from the more lucrative job market opportunities in the same was as many Afro Americans in the U.S.
.

......and they'r expected to only do the menial jobs and to be refused entry to the more lucrative job market.
Agreed.

My own view is that migration should only be used to fill employment shortages where the imported skills are proved to be necessary .

So if a person who has no skills or no qualification turns up at customs and says that he will be killed if he is sent back to ABC country, you think that he ought to be sent back ? confused.

I see no reason why menial jobs shouldn't be carried out by cash-strapped students
.

Agreed.

. But where I differ from everybody else is I believe in cultural diversity as opposed to multiculturalism.
Cultural diversity simply means you allow controlled immigration but make sure you preserve your own cultural values and traditions in the process. Multiculturalism has to do with unlimited immigration and the acceptance that the values and ideals of the host country will inevitably change in the process.

So people from say India. move to London : do you think that they should support England or India in Test Cricket ?

 

[Carrera]

"They work hard and some of them do quite well, and they are actually quite friendly and polite too. That ain't my idea of an Invasion, and I am bloody glad that they (at present) can express themselves and their culture and talk Turkish in the street and use Turkish on their signs. If they couldn't do that there would be bugger all money coming into the area and it would be a shithole slum. The *difference* generates jobs and oportunity, take that away from them and they are at a serious disadvantage."

Fine but this paints a kind of Soviet propaganda machine portrayal of what is going on in the U.K.
You haven't taken into account the widespread conflicts that have taken place between these imported communities. For example, there was huge unrest in Derby not too long ago when the Government sent hundreds of Kurdish immigrants into a city previously dominated by Pakistanis. Within a short period, trouble flared. Evidently, various groups of Kurds made some kind of advances towards the women of Pakistani descent and all hell broke loose. The area was reduced to pitched battles between the rival ethnic gangs. Inevitably it's the taxpayers who have to pay out for all the damage caused.
Likewise there have been battles between other rival ethnic groups over religious issues with a recent riot in Birmingham.
Under the Tories that kind of scenario didn't take place very often. All in all, the white and Asian (Pakistani/Indian) communities got on quite well. But under Labour so many other ethnic groups have been arriving over the last decade the situation is becoming more and more complicated.
As for Derby, it was understandable the Pakistani men would have been upset.

A nation can make a start by not invading other countries.



You mean overlook the mass immigration and genocide that the White Wobble Bottoms have perpetrated ? I can see your point, the here and now thing is a good starting point. But I don't think your view of what's going on here and now is actually rational or informed.



The Third World is a product of the West plundering those nations in the first place. Until you can accept that I don't think you are entitled to make a call on which cultures are more civilized or productive. Our lifestlyes have been subsidised by the suffering and poverty of the colonies matey.



That ain't what is going on, regardless of what you want to believe.



You appear to know **** all about immigration as far as the UK goes Don Juan.

Take the Turkish for example. I live next door to a Turkish dominated area. Couple of big Mosques, hundreds of Turkish restaurants that serve the most succulent Kebabs you have ever had the privilege to even look at, let alone smell or eat. Some wear Hijabs (not allowed where they come from), there is even the odd Burkha too, some enjoy a Raki and a beer or two, almost all of those folks are Muslim.

They work hard and some of them do quite well, and they are actually quite friendly and polite too. That ain't my idea of an Invasion, and I am bloody glad that they (at present) can express themselves and their culture and talk Turkish in the street and use Turkish on their signs. If they couldn't do that there would be bugger all money coming into the area and it would be a shithole slum. The *difference* generates jobs and oportunity, take that away from them and they are at a serious disadvantage.

 

[Carrera]

"So people from say India. move to London : do you think that they should support England or India in Test Cricket ?"

Speaking for myself......
I lived in Spain for years, drank Spanish wine, watched Spanish TV, had Spanish friends and almost married.
But I could never be Spanish. I don't think anyone ever treated me as being Spanish either, although I was accepted and treated well.
I guess one of the reasons I finally left is the pressures to become more Spanish got too much for me. I had an Irish friend there who felt the same way as me when his wife finally split with him (as she felt he wasn't doing enough to succeeed by integrating).
Both of our partners wanted us in suits and ties not drinking bottled guiness in the tapas bars.
That's not to say that I didn't have a great time in Spain but I felt more comfortbale just being me. I believe Lance Armstrong had some of this feeling when he lived a long time in Europe and his American wife Kiki seemed to take to France more than he did intially.

......and they'r expected to only do the menial jobs and to be refused entry to the more lucrative job market.
Agreed.



So if a person who has no skills or no qualification turns up at customs and says that he will be killed if he is sent back to ABC country, you think that he ought to be sent back ? confused.




Agreed.




So people from say India. move to London : do you think that they should support England or India in Test Cricket ?

 

[Billsworld]

Sorry for not taking the Iraq bait, My wife is a Brit. Converted Catholic from Islam. Family still in Manchester. 1/2 Saudi 1/2 Persian.(Muslims) 90% of my 30 plus employees are from elsewhere. I have no issue with legal immigration with the idea of eventual citizenship.I am not sure if that passes your informed status or not?? As far as 3rd world being productive. Other than oil what does the middle east produce.....Inventions?......advances in medicine?........ H.P. has more pttens than the entire mid east. The advances in alternative energy are coming fast...wind , solar, hydrogen, etc..The mid east will become more and more a place to get out of and not go to. Regards BW

A nation can make a start by not invading other countries.



You mean overlook the mass immigration and genocide that the White Wobble Bottoms have perpetrated ? I can see your point, the here and now thing is a good starting point. But I don't think your view of what's going on here and now is actually rational or informed.



The Third World is a product of the West plundering those nations in the first place. Until you can accept that I don't think you are entitled to make a call on which cultures are more civilized or productive. Our lifestlyes have been subsidised by the suffering and poverty of the colonies matey.



That ain't what is going on, regardless of what you want to believe.



You appear to know **** all about immigration as far as the UK goes Don Juan.

Take the Turkish for example. I live next door to a Turkish dominated area. Couple of big Mosques, hundreds of Turkish restaurants that serve the most succulent Kebabs you have ever had the privilege to even look at, let alone smell or eat. Some wear Hijabs (not allowed where they come from), there is even the odd Burkha too, some enjoy a Raki and a beer or two, almost all of those folks are Muslim.

They work hard and some of them do quite well, and they are actually quite friendly and polite too. That ain't my idea of an Invasion, and I am bloody glad that they (at present) can express themselves and their culture and talk Turkish in the street and use Turkish on their signs. If they couldn't do that there would be bugger all money coming into the area and it would be a shithole slum. The *difference* generates jobs and oportunity, take that away from them and they are at a serious disadvantage.

 

[James Bruce Gil]

So people from say India. move to London : do you think that they should support England or India in Test Cricket ?

Limerick,

That's a bit below the belt, sport is different.

You know, I have a brother-in-law who migrated from Scotland as a teenager and is now in his fifties; He is a model citizen and all for Australia in everything other than sporting competition where the Scots are involved. Out comes the blue jumper, tam-o-shanter and the flag every time.

This is true tribalism. People need their identity.

Kind regards,

 

[darkboong]

Sorry for not taking the Iraq bait, My wife is a Brit. Converted Catholic from Islam. Family still in Manchester. 1/2 Saudi 1/2 Persian.(Muslims) 90% of my 30 plus employees are from elsewhere.

Careful, your wife might be a spy for the Muslim Invasion.

I have no issue with legal immigration with the idea of eventual citizenship.

Clearly you *do* have a problem, you described it as a Muslim invasion.

Other than oil what does the middle east produce.....

Oil is a pretty big one. How about asking them to switch off the pumps and see how long you enjoy your standard of living ?

Inventions?......advances in medicine?........

They've more than paid their way in those departments. Those guys pretty much kicked off modern medicine while the Vatican was burning people for practicing it.

H.P. has more pttens than the entire mid east.

Patents are not a measure of ingenuity. I doubt you'd be too keen on the Arabs obtaining injunctions on global soap production for example. Your wife may have objections to perfume being taken out of circulation too.

You can scratch oil refining too for that matter. Hmm, mathematics, start working in roman numerals or count on your fingers instead. While you are at it you might have to start paying a license for using Calculus too. Think of it as a tax on every single bit of equipment you buy and use.

The advances in alternative energy are coming fast...wind , solar, hydrogen, etc..

All the Solar and Hydrogen systems consume vastly more energy to produce than they generate in their lifetimes. In essence you are simply burning a **** load of mineral fuel to give yourself a fancy battery. Wind, Tidal and Geothermal are net winners though. That Aussie tower thing might well be a net win too.

The mid east will become more and more a place to get out of and not go to. Regards BW

Funny how all you Muslim haters seem to read from the same script. "Invasion" blah blah blah "No contribution to modern science" blah blah blah... Almost as if you are all being given a script to follow by the same rabid Islamaphobe.

You could do a lot worse than read "Heart of Darkness" quite frankly.

 

[davidmc]

A nation can make a start by not invading other countries.

We're just following your lead (Africa, China, India, America, ect...) You blokes set "the precedent"

The Third World is a product of the West plundering those nations in the first place. Until you can accept that I don't think you are entitled to make a call on which cultures are more civilized or productive. Our lifestyles have been subsidised by the suffering and poverty of the colonies matey.

Exactly, I and my country want recompense from your country

You appear to know **** all about immigration as far as the UK goes Don Juan.

You seem to enjoy patronizing/belittling other's. See Billsworld's reply post #547. He does, in fact, know a little something about the UK

Take the Turkish for example. I live next door to a Turkish dominated area. Couple of big Mosques, hundreds of Turkish restaurants that serve the most succulent Kebabs you have ever had the privilege to even look at, let alone smell or eat. Some wear Hijabs (not allowed where they come from), there is even the odd Burkha too, some enjoy a Raki and a beer or two, almost all of those folks are Muslim.

Are you saying restaurateur's are preferable as emigrants

 

[darkboong]

We're just following your lead (Africa, China, India, America, ect...) You blokes set "the precedent"

A bad one, you should know better than to copy it.

 

[limerickman]

Limerick,

That's a bit below the belt, sport is different.

You know, I have a brother-in-law who migrated from Scotland as a teenager and is now in his fifties; He is a model citizen and all for Australia in everything other than sporting competition where the Scots are involved. Out comes the blue jumper, tam-o-shanter and the flag every time.

This is true tribalism. People need their identity.

Kind regards,

You may not be aware but the Tories under Margaret Thatcher divined this thing to test peoples nationality/loyalty called the Norman Tebbit Cricket test.

Tebbit (and the Daily Mail) posed the exact question that I posed to Carrera about who should immigrants support.

Personally I have no problem with immigration - I just like to get answers from those who do have issues with immigration

 

[FredC]

We're just following your lead (Africa, China, India, America, ect...) You blokes set "the precedent"

Exactly, I and my country want recompense from your country

You seem to enjoy patronizing/belittling other's. See Billsworld's reply post #547. He does, in fact, know a little something about the UK

Are you saying restaurateur's are preferable as emigrants

Dear David,
I think that is a pretty bad post coming from a person of your standing.
Before colonisation in Africa from various trade incursors, they had no structure or knowledge of trading whatsover. The incursors, as we might call built social infrastures for all to benefit from. However, since the Countries wanted Independence from external 'rule', none of them have cut the mustard and progressed, despite proferred help. So it's back to square one for the thickos who rape aid money, and dump it in Swiss Bank Accounts.
I'd like to remind you all that every known system of Government has been tried in Africa, and everyone has failed. Well at least since the incursors left.

 

[davidmc]

Dear David,
I think that is a pretty bad post coming from a person of your standing.
Before colonisation in Africa from various trade incursors, they had no structure or knowledge of trading whatsover. The incursors, as we might call built social infrastures for all to benefit from. However, since the Countries wanted Independence from external 'rule', none of them have cut the mustard and progressed, despite proferred help. So it's back to square one for the thickos who rape aid money, and dump it in Swiss Bank Accounts.
I'd like to remind you all that every known system of Government has been tried in Africa, and everyone has failed. Well at least since the incursors left.

Africa is a very unique situation. They did trade amongst themselves. Witness-Timbuktu. I have a theory that nations that lie along the equatorial belt are predisposed to non-industrial endeavours. Its just too damn hot & the humidity is bad for manufacturing (rust), among other things. Look at the Mexican's, they are smart enough to take naps at high noon because of thier clime. Same w/ the Spaniards, no They just continue later where they left-off.

 

[James Bruce Gil]

I have a theory that nations that lie along the equatorial belt are predisposed to non-industrial endeavours.QUOTE]

David,

Its an interesting theory; Its like Chemistry there are many exceptions:

Singapore, Thailand, India etc (if you consider the equatorial belt between the tropics).

Kind regards,

 

[Billsworld]

Careful, your wife might be a spy for the Muslim Invasion.



Clearly you *do* have a problem, you described it as a Muslim invasion.



Oil is a pretty big one. How about asking them to switch off the pumps and see how long you enjoy your standard of living ?



They've more than paid their way in those departments. Those guys pretty much kicked off modern medicine while the Vatican was burning people for practicing it.



Patents are not a measure of ingenuity. I doubt you'd be too keen on the Arabs obtaining injunctions on global soap production for example. Your wife may have objections to perfume being taken out of circulation too.

You can scratch oil refining too for that matter. Hmm, mathematics, start working in roman numerals or count on your fingers instead. While you are at it you might have to start paying a license for using Calculus too. Think of it as a tax on every single bit of equipment you buy and use.



All the Solar and Hydrogen systems consume vastly more energy to produce than they generate in their lifetimes. In essence you are simply burning a **** load of mineral fuel to give yourself a fancy battery. Wind, Tidal and Geothermal are net winners though. That Aussie tower thing might well be a net win too.



Funny how all you Muslim haters seem to read from the same script. "Invasion" blah blah blah "No contribution to modern science" blah blah blah... Almost as if you are all being given a script to follow by the same rabid Islamaphobe.

You could do a lot worse than read "Heart of Darkness" quite frankly.

Good thing my wife is a hottie......with all the benifits of a middle eastern wife. I am not going to debate the science of energy, Do like geothermal, and that tower is pretty cool too. I love solar and hydrogen. Without the U.S. helping with water exploration the oil would still be in the ground in Saudi , much like the oil in former USSR. I think we should stick to the last several hundred years of history . I guess the question to you is, what is a citizen, and what is required of one. 1b) If the Germans started lobbing missles accross the channel .......again, Would your Arab friends hang around or head for the hills/home, or is the UK home? Regards BW

 

[davidmc]

I guess the question to you is, what is a citizen, and what is required of one. 1b) If the Germans started lobbing missles accross the channel .......again, Would your Arab friends hang around or head for the hills/home, or is the UK home? Regards BW

I had the same epiphany. How many would stick around to fight it out Some would be barred due to thier religious beliefs (non-violence). Others may not consider Britain thier "home country" hence, run for the hills. In my country, it is a citizens duty to fight to repel foreign invader's, not that this country used to be under the indigenous indians before my ancestors immigrated here. Many 2nd & 3rd generation immigrants do join the military & serve honorably. I had an Egyptian co-worker when I was active-duty military. Also many hispanic americans serve honorably as do japanese americans & a plethora of other's. The British defended their country valiantly during WW II against all odd's. I salute them

 

[Billsworld]

I had the same epiphany. How many would stick around to fight it out Some would be barred due to thier religious beliefs (non-violence). Others may not consider Britain thier "home country" hence, run for the hills. In my country, it is a citizens duty to fight to repel foreign invader's, not that this country used to be under the indigenous indians before my ancestors immigrated here. Many 2nd & 3rd generation immigrants do join the military & serve honorably. I had an Egyptian co-worker when I was active-duty military. Also many hispanic americans serve honorably as do japanese americans & a plethora of other's. The British defended their country valiantly during WW II against all odd's. I salute them

I salute anyone that has served our country as well. The Brits are known for being very tough in battle. BW

 

[davidmc]

I salute anyone that has served our country as well. The Brits are known for being very tough in battle. BW

I did a few exercises w/ the Australian military off of the west coast of Australia in the 1980's. Very professional, the lot of them.

 

[limerickman]

. I guess the question to you is, what is a citizen, and what is required of one. 1b) If the Germans started lobbing missles accross the channel .......again, Would your Arab friends hang around or head for the hills/home, or is the UK home? Regards BW

Before putting questions to people - you might consider why your country sat on it's hands between 1939 and 1941, in the full knowledge that it's main ally
(Britain) was under attack ?

And while you're also at it, I understand that it was the British who first explored for oil in the Middle East and who opened up the oil fields, not your country.