Cletus says: "A Bachetta Giro ..."

Discussion in 'Recumbent bicycles' started by John Clarke, Mar 3, 2003.

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  1. John Clarke

    John Clarke Guest

    Cletus, as one of the few people to have first hand ownership knowledge of Giros and P-38s, I find
    your comments from another post very interesting.

    "A Bacchetta Giro is a better bike out of the box than the Lightning P- 38 and over $1000 less. I
    would prefer a Giro over a Phantom because I can get comfortable on it and the seating is more
    comfotrable and adjustable. It takes a lot of work to get a P-38 in racing condition. I would like
    better seating but I have adapted to the limited angle of the Lightning seat. "

    From my readings of these posts over many months, my opinion is that you are extremely knowledgable,
    and I value your opinion. Without being specific, I can recall a few posts where you mentioned this
    and that about fixing your P-38. Does the "frame structure" of the P-38 allow it to be tweaked to a
    performance point where it clearly outperforms the Giro, or can some of those same tweaks be done to
    the Giro. For example, if you spend 500 tweaking the P-38, and 500 on the Giro, would the Giro still
    be as good or better? Or, is there limitations with the Giro design that won't ever let it be
    developed to be as good as a P-38? If you purchased a Giro and spent 500 on it (still 500 less than
    a P-38), would it be embarrassingly better ?

    I invite your comments and those from others who responsibly follow this NG.

    Thanks, John Clarke

    PS I'm hoping to be visiting Jude M. this weekend to test ride a Giro (and Stratus), so all feedback
    is most appreciated.
     
    Tags:


  2. Ben Fox

    Ben Fox Guest

    I have owned 2 P-38's,2 Stealth's and a Giro[for 1 week] No offense to Cletus ,but the Giro is no
    P-38, The Giro was the slowest bike I ever rode ,with the exception of the Bike-E and the Wave. The
    Giro is a very nice bike though ,I didn't keep mine because the seat gave me recumbent butt as do
    all high BB Rans type seats. The seat adjustment on the P-38 is for tilt only. The reason it doesn't
    adjust forward and back is to keep the riders weight in the proper place. The tilt is not drastic
    because the P-38 is designed to be ridden in a more upright position to optimize power to the
    pedals,which it does very well.[Much like the Tour Easy] Cletus appartently has had some problems
    with his P-38,but his is a Voyager,which might account for his problems. The one I had before and
    the one I have now are perfect,I have had no problems. The Lightning customer service has been the
    subject of a few complaints on this N.G., but I have had no problems there either. Ben Fox

    "John Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Cletus, as one of the few people to have first hand ownership knowledge of Giros
    and
    > P-38s, I find your comments from another post very interesting.
    >
    > "A Bacchetta Giro is a better bike out of the box than the Lightning P- 38 and over $1000 less. I
    > would prefer a Giro over a Phantom because I can get comfortable on it and the seating is more
    > comfotrable and adjustable. It takes a lot of work to get a P-38 in racing condition. I would like
    > better seating but I have adapted to the limited angle of the Lightning seat. "
    >
    > From my readings of these posts over many months, my opinion is that you
    are
    > extremely knowledgable, and I value your opinion. Without being specific,
    I
    > can recall a few posts where you mentioned this and that about fixing your P-38. Does the "frame
    > structure" of the P-38 allow it to be tweaked to a performance point where it clearly outperforms
    > the Giro, or can some of those same tweaks be done to the Giro. For example, if you spend 500
    > tweaking the P-38, and 500 on the Giro, would the Giro still be as good or better? Or, is there
    > limitations with the Giro design that won't ever let
    it
    > be developed to be as good as a P-38? If you purchased a Giro and spent
    500
    > on it (still 500 less than a P-38), would it be embarrassingly better ?
    >
    > I invite your comments and those from others who responsibly follow this
    NG.
    >
    > Thanks, John Clarke
    >
    >
    > PS I'm hoping to be visiting Jude M. this weekend to test ride a Giro (and Stratus), so all
    > feedback is most appreciated.
     
  3. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Cletus, as one of the few people to have first hand ownership knowledge of Giros and P-38s, I find
    > your comments from another post very interesting.
    >
    > "A Bacchetta Giro is a better bike out of the box than the Lightning P- 38 and over $1000 less. I
    > would prefer a Giro over a Phantom because I can get comfortable on it and the seating is more
    > comfotrable and adjustable. It takes a lot of work to get a P-38 in racing condition. I would like
    > better seating but I have adapted to the limited angle of the Lightning seat. "
    >
    > From my readings of these posts over many months, my opinion is that you are extremely
    > knowledgable, and I value your opinion.

    Well, Extremely opinionated.

    At present, I'd rate my P-38 Voyager and Bacchetta Giro about dead even. The Voyager has 6000 miles
    and since September, the Giro has 1670

    The Voyager did not become a pleasure to ride until I replaced the crappy OEM Ritchey Logic brake
    levers last month. I was never able to lock the rear wheel until the latest brake system was added.
    The Giro can lock w/ no problem.

    Besides changing out the Giro Wheel set (which I almost managed to do until I found the ChrisKing
    hub interfered with the beefy Giro front fork), there is little that I have found to change on the
    Giro Certainly, the Giro would be helped with an upgrade on the brakes and shifters but that doesn't
    help in the speed department. The OEM one work fine for me.

    Here's why I now rate them the same:

    ===================================================
    Voyager:

    As delivered: Front: 56-46-30 Suntour Cranks w/ Shimano Ultegera derailleur. Rear 12-34 Shimano
    9-spd w/ Shamino XT rear derailleur

    Brakes: Front: Odyessy 'A' Rear: Shimano XT Levers: Ritchey Logic

    Wheels: Hubs: Simonao XT Rims: Sun Rear 559 Front 349

    Other 'features'

    Lock-down Tilt Steering volumn Front Suspension

    Voyager Package F-40 package (less Hayes rear disk brake)

    What I added HP-Velotechnic fenders Tubus Cargo rear rack RAM Mount for GPS RAM Mount for Digital
    camera Zvon from the Czech Republic.

    What I improved:

    Replaced the 16" suspension fork with a 20" std non suspension for wide enough for fenders.

    Replaced Lightning 3/4" foam seat pad with ThermaRest stadium seat pad (inflatable

    Added foam pipe insulation to rear seat cross bar to pad my neck where the std lightning seat
    interfered

    Replaced the Voyager seat posts and clamps with std Lightning seat bolts. Replaced the Voyager seat
    mesh three times before I got one that did not separate at the Velcro butt closure.

    Replaced the 1/8" Lightning seat lacing with 4mm Mammut accessory cord Replaced the seat lacing
    locks with std spring loaded cord lock.

    Replaced brakes with Shimano XTR (2003) front and rear with matching levers (This is the best single
    improvement I have made to the bike

    Replaced the rear drive train with 11-34T Shimano and the reat derailleur with Shimano XTR
    (Mega range)

    Replaced the front wheel with ChrisKing hub and Velocity rim

    Tires: Original: Primo Comet 26X1" & 16X1 3/8"

    Transition: Schwalbe Marathon Vredestein S-Licks

    Now: Schwalbe Stelvios

    ======================================================
    Giro: See X-Eyed Website for as Delivered equipment.

    What I replaced:

    Kenda Kwest tires with Vredestein S-Licks front and Schwalbe Stelvios rear

    Rear wheel with ChrisKing Hub and Velocity Rim (Part of wheel set above)

    What I Added

    HP-Velotechnic fenders RANS HT rear rack X-Eyed Midship Rack for Bacchetta Fastback Hydration system
    RAM Mount for GPS

    --
    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  4. Freewheeling

    Freewheeling Guest

    Cletus:

    So, just out of curiosity what will you ride on the MoM? I assume it'll be the Voyager because you
    can transport it easier.

    --
    --Scott [email protected] Cut the "tail" to send email.

    "Cletus D. Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > > Cletus, as one of the few people to have first hand ownership knowledge of Giros
    and
    > > P-38s, I find your comments from another post very interesting.
    > >
    > > "A Bacchetta Giro is a better bike out of the box than the Lightning P- 38 and over $1000 less.
    > > I would prefer a Giro over a Phantom because I can get comfortable on it and the seating is more
    > > comfotrable and adjustable. It takes a lot of work to get a P-38 in racing condition. I would
    > > like better seating but I have adapted to the limited angle of the Lightning seat. "
    > >
    > > From my readings of these posts over many months, my opinion is that you
    are
    > > extremely knowledgable, and I value your opinion.
    >
    > Well, Extremely opinionated.
    >
    > At present, I'd rate my P-38 Voyager and Bacchetta Giro about dead even. The Voyager has 6000
    > miles and since September, the Giro has 1670
    >
    > The Voyager did not become a pleasure to ride until I replaced the crappy OEM Ritchey Logic brake
    > levers last month. I was never able to lock the rear wheel until the latest brake system was
    > added. The Giro can lock w/ no problem.
    >
    > Besides changing out the Giro Wheel set (which I almost managed to do until I found the ChrisKing
    > hub interfered with the beefy Giro front fork), there is little that I have found to change on the
    > Giro Certainly, the Giro would be helped with an upgrade on the brakes and shifters but that
    > doesn't help in the speed department. The OEM one work fine for me.
    >
    > Here's why I now rate them the same:
    >
    > ===================================================
    > Voyager:
    >
    > As delivered: Front: 56-46-30 Suntour Cranks w/ Shimano Ultegera derailleur. Rear 12-34 Shimano
    > 9-spd w/ Shamino XT rear derailleur
    >
    > Brakes: Front: Odyessy 'A' Rear: Shimano XT Levers: Ritchey Logic
    >
    > Wheels: Hubs: Simonao XT Rims: Sun Rear 559 Front 349
    >
    > Other 'features'
    >
    > Lock-down Tilt Steering volumn Front Suspension
    >
    > Voyager Package F-40 package (less Hayes rear disk brake)
    >
    > What I added HP-Velotechnic fenders Tubus Cargo rear rack RAM Mount for GPS RAM Mount for Digital
    > camera Zvon from the Czech Republic.
    >
    >
    > What I improved:
    >
    > Replaced the 16" suspension fork with a 20" std non suspension for wide enough for fenders.
    >
    > Replaced Lightning 3/4" foam seat pad with ThermaRest stadium seat pad (inflatable
    >
    > Added foam pipe insulation to rear seat cross bar to pad my neck where the std lightning seat
    > interfered
    >
    > Replaced the Voyager seat posts and clamps with std Lightning seat bolts. Replaced the Voyager
    > seat mesh three times before I got one that did not separate at the Velcro butt closure.
    >
    > Replaced the 1/8" Lightning seat lacing with 4mm Mammut accessory cord Replaced the seat lacing
    > locks with std spring loaded cord lock.
    >
    > Replaced brakes with Shimano XTR (2003) front and rear with matching levers (This is the best
    > single improvement I have made to the bike
    >
    > Replaced the rear drive train with 11-34T Shimano and the reat derailleur with Shimano XTR
    > (Mega range)
    >
    > Replaced the front wheel with ChrisKing hub and Velocity rim
    >
    > Tires: Original: Primo Comet 26X1" & 16X1 3/8"
    >
    > Transition: Schwalbe Marathon Vredestein S-Licks
    >
    > Now: Schwalbe Stelvios
    >
    > ======================================================
    > Giro: See X-Eyed Website for as Delivered equipment.
    >
    > What I replaced:
    >
    > Kenda Kwest tires with Vredestein S-Licks front and Schwalbe Stelvios rear
    >
    > Rear wheel with ChrisKing Hub and Velocity Rim (Part of wheel set above)
    >
    > What I Added
    >
    > HP-Velotechnic fenders RANS HT rear rack X-Eyed Midship Rack for Bacchetta Fastback Hydration
    > system RAM Mount for GPS
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    > - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  5. Cletus Lee

    Cletus Lee Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Cletus:
    >
    > So, just out of curiosity what will you ride on the MoM? I assume it'll be the Voyager because you
    > can transport it easier.
    >

    Until I can fit the Giro in a suitcase, I will be riding the Voyager whenever I travel by air.

    MoM is May 25th And it looks like I will be in this country so MoM is on my Calendar. Is
    it on yours?

    --

    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  6. "Cletus Lee" skrev...

    > MoM is May 25th And it looks like I will be in this country so MoM is on my Calendar. Is it
    > on yours?

    Aha... a sure harbinger of Spring. Cletus is challenging people to go to MOM. ;-) (However I dont do
    stuff that has "mountains", "misery", "hell" etc. in the name)

    Regards Mikael
     
  7. Cletus Lee

    Cletus Lee Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >
    > "Cletus Lee" skrev...
    >
    > > MoM is May 25th And it looks like I will be in this country so MoM is on my Calendar. Is it on
    > > yours?
    >
    > Aha... a sure harbinger of Spring. Cletus is challenging people to go to MOM. ;-) (However I dont
    > do stuff that has "mountains", "misery", "hell" etc. in the name)

    Only challenge this year is to myself. Scott was a participant (and finisher) last year.

    Except for two 'hills' it is an easy ride.

    --

    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  8. Cletus Lee

    Cletus Lee Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > I have owned 2 P-38's,2 Stealth's and a Giro[for 1 week] No offense to Cletus ,but the Giro is no
    > P-38, The Giro was the slowest bike I ever rode ,with the exception of the Bike-E and the Wave.
    > The Giro is a very nice bike though ,I didn't keep mine because the seat gave me recumbent butt as
    > do all high BB Rans type seats.
    >
    It is odd that my experience is just the opposite. When I first got the P-38 (with the 16" wheel) it
    was the slowest bike I ever rode. (I persisted. It got better. I got better.) The Lightning seat is
    the only seat that ever gave me R-butt. Relative to the seat, the BB height on both bikes are very
    nearly the same for me. The Giro seat is higher off the ground as is the BB. So unless you are very
    long legged, the BB height should not be the issue for you.

    If you will notice in my Giro photos, I keep my Giro seat fairly upright though not as much as the
    P-38 where I am limited by the play of the seat mounting bolts in the in the seat frame and the
    rigid seat struts.
    --

    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  9. FWIW: My P-38 XT seat was the most comfortable recumbent seat I've ever ridden. My body "fit into"
    ... not "on" ...the P-38 perfectly. I loved the bike. So why do I ride a GRR Ti Rush? Answer: riding
    it is "easier" ... it's easier to control ... easier to balance and direct .... and far less
    demanding of my attention. Also it is a lot easier on the Rush to start up from dead stops, even
    uphill. The Rush is a fast-enough bike ...but ... I believe a faired P-38 is faster than a faired Ti
    Rush, especially uphill. "Cletus Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > > I have owned 2 P-38's,2 Stealth's and a Giro[for 1 week] No offense to Cletus ,but the Giro is
    > > no P-38, The Giro was the slowest
    bike
    > > I ever rode ,with the exception of the Bike-E and the Wave. The Giro is a very nice bike though
    > > ,I didn't keep mine because the seat gave me recumbent butt as do all high BB Rans type seats.
    > >
    > It is odd that my experience is just the opposite. When I first got the
    P-38 (with the 16"
    > wheel) it was the slowest bike I ever rode. (I persisted. It got better. I
    got better.) The
    > Lightning seat is the only seat that ever gave me R-butt. Relative to the
    seat, the BB height
    > on both bikes are very nearly the same for me. The Giro seat is higher off
    the ground as is the
    > BB. So unless you are very long legged, the BB height should not be the
    issue for you.
    >
    > If you will notice in my Giro photos, I keep my Giro seat fairly upright
    though not as much as
    > the P-38 where I am limited by the play of the seat mounting bolts in the
    in the seat frame and
    > the rigid seat struts.
    > --
    >
    > Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    > - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  10. Mike S

    Mike S Guest

    I think the answer depends on what you want the bike to do. I have ridden Ben Fox's P-38. It is a
    very nice machine (it makes him a heck of a rider which takes quite a machine to do!). I have ridden
    other P-38s and they have been equally nice. I have ridden the Giro and was impressed with it too.
    But they have different feels and (IMHO) different purposes. The Giro is a nice all around bike
    (like the V-Rex). For a SWB I thought it was user friendly. It is a decent climber, well handling
    all purpose bike. It has the most current design features. The P-38 has a harsher ride, takes a
    little longer to get the feel for, and isn't as user friendly. It also seems a little outdated. But,
    even for my limited engine, I could outclimb and outspeed the Giro on a P-38 anyday. I might not be
    able to ride as far on the bike, since its stiff frame transmits harshness to the rider, hence
    creates fatigue, but for the miles I covered I would no doubt be moving. I agree with Gator Bob that
    the P-38 seat was very comfortable. If I wanted an all around bike for commuting, local rides and
    some open country distance I would lean to the Giro. If I wanted speed and performance, the P-38 is
    the one, even considering the extra money. It isn't a comfort, forgiving bike, but it is a high
    performance bike with a more traditional setup (as opposed to the low racers).
     
  11. Bethf

    Bethf Guest

    "Mikael Seierup" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Cletus Lee" skrev...
    >
    > > MoM is May 25th And it looks like I will be in this country so MoM is on
    my Calendar. Is it on
    > > yours?
    >
    > Aha... a sure harbinger of Spring. Cletus is challenging people to go to
    MOM. ;-)
    > (However I dont do stuff that has "mountains", "misery", "hell" etc. in
    the name)

    how about "Hell of alot of naked women at the mountains?"
     
  12. Cletus Lee

    Cletus Lee Guest

  13. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > ,I didn't keep mine because the seat gave me recumbent butt as do all high BB Rans type seats
    >

    I just measured the BB and seat heights of both my bikes Giro: BB = 26.75" Top of seat= 24"
    Difference= 2.75" P-38: BB = 25.5" Top of seat= 21.5" Difference= 4"

    --
    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  14. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Until I can fit the Giro in a suitcase, I will be riding the Voyager whenever I travel by air.
    >
    Of Course, if the Bacchetta Boys decide to show up, I might have to pay some excess baggage fees,
    just so I can fit in.

    --
    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  15. Bethf

    Bethf Guest

  16. John W

    John W Guest

    Instead of a Giro why don't you get a Strada. You will have a bent that is as fast as a P-38 and
    costs $1800 versus $2600 for the P-38, and you will not have to upgrade the Strada. Better yet you
    could buy a Bacchetta Corsa for the same price as the P-38 and you get an M-5 seat and super
    components and wheels and I bet its every bit as fast if not faster than P-38.

    John

    "John Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Cletus, as one of the few people to have first hand ownership knowledge of Giros
    and
    > P-38s, I find your comments from another post very interesting.
    >
    > "A Bacchetta Giro is a better bike out of the box than the Lightning P- 38 and over $1000 less. I
    > would prefer a Giro over a Phantom because I can get comfortable on it and the seating is more
    > comfotrable and adjustable. It takes a lot of work to get a P-38 in racing condition. I would like
    > better seating but I have adapted to the limited angle of the Lightning seat. "
    >
    > From my readings of these posts over many months, my opinion is that you
    are
    > extremely knowledgable, and I value your opinion. Without being specific,
    I
    > can recall a few posts where you mentioned this and that about fixing your P-38. Does the "frame
    > structure" of the P-38 allow it to be tweaked to a performance point where it clearly outperforms
    > the Giro, or can some of those same tweaks be done to the Giro. For example, if you spend 500
    > tweaking the P-38, and 500 on the Giro, would the Giro still be as good or better? Or, is there
    > limitations with the Giro design that won't ever let
    it
    > be developed to be as good as a P-38? If you purchased a Giro and spent
    500
    > on it (still 500 less than a P-38), would it be embarrassingly better ?
    >
    > I invite your comments and those from others who responsibly follow this
    NG.
    >
    > Thanks, John Clarke
    >
    >
    > PS I'm hoping to be visiting Jude M. this weekend to test ride a Giro (and Stratus), so all
    > feedback is most appreciated.
     
  17. John W

    John W Guest

    I think he is just stating that the Rans seat on their high BB (Vrex, Rocket, etc.; Stratus would be
    a Rans low BB bent) bents gives him recumbent butt. Whereas the seat on the high BB Lightning does
    not give him recumbent butt. I do not see where he is claiming anything about the seat to BB
    difference causing the problem. I think it is the seat that is causing his recumbent butt. Seems
    like he also has problems with the Giro seat.

    John

    "Cletus D. Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > > ,I didn't keep mine because the seat gave me recumbent butt as do all high BB Rans type seats
    > >
    >
    > I just measured the BB and seat heights of both my bikes Giro: BB = 26.75" Top of seat= 24"
    > Difference= 2.75" P-38: BB = 25.5" Top of seat= 21.5" Difference= 4"
    >
    > --
    > Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    > - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  18. I test rode a Corsa and and Aero twice. The P-38 is more comfortable, more "rideable" and a better
    "fit" ... for me, that is. But not for lots of other folks. So what else is new in recumbency? "John
    W" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Instead of a Giro why don't you get a Strada. You will have a bent that is as fast as a P-38 and
    > costs $1800 versus $2600 for the P-38, and you will not have to upgrade the Strada. Better yet you
    > could buy a Bacchetta Corsa for the same price as the P-38 and you get an M-5 seat and super
    components
    > and wheels and I bet its every bit as fast if not faster than P-38.
    >
    > John
     
  19. Sadly, the women's nekkid bike team has a new manager. But not me. ;-((

    Gator Bob Siegel

    "BethF" <[email protected]> wrote > > In article > > > how about "Hell of alot of naked women at the
    mountains?"
    > > >
    > > Where can I sign up for that ride??
    >
    > Ask Bob Siegel.
     
  20. Ben Fox

    Ben Fox Guest

    Used P-38's can be found for a heck of a lot less than $2600. I paid $1400. for my 2000 model Campy
    model. Ben Fox "John W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Instead of a Giro why don't you get a Strada. You will have a bent that is as fast as a P-38 and
    > costs $1800 versus $2600 for the P-38, and you will not have to upgrade the Strada. Better yet you
    > could buy a Bacchetta Corsa for the same price as the P-38 and you get an M-5 seat and super
    components
    > and wheels and I bet its every bit as fast if not faster than P-38.
    >
    > John
    >
    >
    > "John Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > Cletus, as one of the few people to have first hand ownership knowledge of Giros
    > and
    > > P-38s, I find your comments from another post very interesting.
    > >
    > > "A Bacchetta Giro is a better bike out of the box than the Lightning P- 38 and over $1000 less.
    > > I would prefer a Giro over a Phantom because I can get comfortable on it and the seating is more
    > > comfotrable and adjustable. It takes a lot of work to get a P-38 in racing condition. I would
    > > like better seating but I have adapted to the limited angle of the Lightning seat. "
    > >
    > > From my readings of these posts over many months, my opinion is that you
    > are
    > > extremely knowledgable, and I value your opinion. Without being
    specific,
    > I
    > > can recall a few posts where you mentioned this and that about fixing
    your
    > > P-38. Does the "frame structure" of the P-38 allow it to be tweaked to a performance point
    > > where it clearly outperforms the Giro, or can some of those same tweaks be done to the Giro.
    > > For example, if you spend 500 tweaking the P-38, and 500 on the Giro, would the Giro still be
    > > as good
    or
    > > better? Or, is there limitations with the Giro design that won't ever
    let
    > it
    > > be developed to be as good as a P-38? If you purchased a Giro and spent
    > 500
    > > on it (still 500 less than a P-38), would it be embarrassingly better ?
    > >
    > > I invite your comments and those from others who responsibly follow this
    > NG.
    > >
    > > Thanks, John Clarke
    > >
    > >
    > > PS I'm hoping to be visiting Jude M. this weekend to test ride a Giro
    (and
    > > Stratus), so all feedback is most appreciated.
    > >
    >
     
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