Clipless vs. Flats

Phil said:

SuperG said:

Monique Y. Mudama said:

On 2005-06-25, SuperG penned:

>I ride both. All the XC riding is with clipless, doing some trials
>with the flats. Any thoughts on one or the other? My flat peddle
>riders say they (flats) are better - they are afraid of the clipless
>saying they are dangerous. It seems you need to have alot of time in
>the saddle to "train" your feet to unclip properly - they seem to
>unclip fine every time I fly over the bars and bounce off the
>ground... thoughts?

I don't understand why you're asking this question. If you ride XC
with clipless and it works for you, then obviously you don't need
more time to train your feet ..? What am I missing?

Been riding XC for years and will continue as such... with clipless.
Have linked up with some trials riders that ride over items that the
typical XC (like myself) might go around - granted there 'ain't much I
go around now but adding the trials training sessions have helped with
the balance and tossing the bike over larger boulders, etc. Being
clipped in riding the length of a 12" log 3' off the ground is not
good practice. Clipped in it was always easy for me to, for example
swing the rear of the bike around - just by pulling up on the spuds.
The first time trying that with flats was a surprise - needed to
learn more about moving body weight around to get the rear of the
bike up on flat peddles. This using the flats (in training) clearly
helps when pushing the bike over a big rock or a log.

I found that I learned 80% of my trail-handling skills by riding with flats
on foot-high urban stuff.

Makes sense... I must ask, what is a "Squid-in-Training"?

SuperG said:

I ride both. All the XC riding is with clipless, doing some trials with
the flats. Any thoughts on one or the other? My flat peddle riders say
they (flats) are better - they are afraid of the clipless saying they
are dangerous. It seems you need to have alot of time in the saddle to
"train" your feet to unclip properly - they seem to unclip fine every
time I fly over the bars and bounce off the ground... thoughts?

I'll give up my Time ATAC's when they pry the cold, dead pedals from my
cleats! Took me a dozen years to go clipless, and a few rides to get
used to them, but I'd hate not to have them. Clipless, camelbak, and
some 'real' bike clothes are standard equipment for me. Oh yeah, a
helmet, too, but only 'cause I have to. I also wear gloves, but could
probably live without them. And I use a bike computer, but could live
without that too.

James

Mark Hickey said:

Monique Y. Mudama said:

On 2005-06-25, Mark Hickey penned:

Quoted message said:

When I'm riding in technical terrain, I just make sure and keep the
pedal release tension adjusted very low. I can pop out of them
without conscious effort. The down side is that I'll also pop out
occasionally when my spin gets a little lumpy or I'm having to use
body language to get around obstacles - but it's better than having
the bike ride me into the ground on an endo.

I hear this a lot, and it confuses me. I've had my tension set at the
absolute lowest on every pedal I've used, and I also have the more
forgiving cleats. Now that I'm used to riding clipless, I can
effortlessly release whenever I want to, yes, but I can't remember
ever coming out when I didn't want to. Believe me, my spin is way
more than a little lumpy.

Actually, I do recall every now and then turning my foot enough that it
feels like it's starting to coming out, but it's never resulted in lost
contact with the pedal. I just straighten out my foot and all is well.

It just seems like if anyone would have trouble staying in pedals, it
would be a newbie like me with sloppy technique. But I haven't had
that experience. Obviously my definition of technical would be
different than yours, but I'm probably mashing the pedals at least
twice as hard as you are on any climb.

Being a closet roadie, I pull up on the back half of the stroke a lot
more than most MTBers (actually, according to a Spinscan computer, a
lot more than most roadies). That's the only place I ever pop a pedal
out - it would be (as you've found) unlikely for the pedal to release
on the front half of the stroke (since you're pushing down on the
cleat).

I don't understand about the popping out. I strive to spin/pull-up on
the pedal and I have never, ever come out of the pedal unintentionally.
Maybe the ATAC's are just better. No tension adjustments to mess around
with either, though I think how you attach the cleats to the shoe is
supposed to make a difference. They shed mud well too, and they're
maintenance free. As I recall I went with the loose tension orientation.
Only problem I ever had releasing was when I lost one of the screws that
holds the cleat to the shoe. Now THAT was interesting!

James

SuperG said:

I ride both. All the XC riding is with clipless, doing some trials with
the flats. Any thoughts on one or the other? My flat peddle riders say
they (flats) are better - they are afraid of the clipless saying they
are dangerous. It seems you need to have alot of time in the saddle to
"train" your feet to unclip properly - they seem to unclip fine every
time I fly over the bars and bounce off the ground... thoughts?

Both have their pros and cons. The majority of my riding is with
clipless but I use flats for urban/trials stuff (not that I really do
that crazy stuff). There's no way you could say that one is better than
the other though overall. Each has its place depending upon
circumstances. It'd be like trying to say that apples taste better than
oranges.

In the case of your friends, yeah, I think that flats are better.
Clipless can be dangerous if they don't release - most of the time they
do, but they don't always. If you're balancing and hopping around flats
are my preference, but regular distance XC riding it's clipless for me.

I've had the odd good crash riding with clipless where they havent
released and the bike has cartwheeled around on the end of my legs like
an old fashioned Catapult. Not fun.
--
Westie

Oh boy, this again! Apart from the first couple of weeks, over the four
or five years I rode clipless I never fell over still clipped in, and I
never crashed and my foot not released. I have used a number of
different clipless pedals including shimano, Onza and Time atac. I
swapped to flat pedals for trials riding and started to wonder why I
bothered with the clipless when I went on a ride. Been riding
exclusively with flats the last five years, no problems with feet movig
about at all just get some decent pedals and shoes.
Ride whatever makes you happiest out on the trail but don't assume one
way is the only way.
Steve.

Quoted message said:

and I
never crashed and my foot not released.

My onzas hold onto my feet pretty tight - number of times ive been left
upside down in a ditch with my foot twisted round still clipped in. But
its worth it for the ease the rest of the time.

I did this once when i first put them on, it rather quickly becomes
second nature to whip them out, leaving accidents the only time when
you may be left clipped in.

J

Quoted message said:

Got rid of clipless the day I went to stop and the
right foot was still clipped in. Over I went with my foot attached
to the bike. But it was a matter of just removing the cleat and
retaining the platform pedal. Now a days they have flat one side and
clipless on the other.

jem said:

Mark Hickey wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Being a closet roadie, I pull up on the back half of the stroke a lot
more than most MTBers (actually, according to a Spinscan computer, a
lot more than most roadies). That's the only place I ever pop a pedal
out - it would be (as you've found) unlikely for the pedal to release
on the front half of the stroke (since you're pushing down on the
cleat).

I don't understand about the popping out. I strive to spin/pull-up on
the pedal and I have never, ever come out of the pedal unintentionally.
Maybe the ATAC's are just better. No tension adjustments to mess around
with either, though I think how you attach the cleats to the shoe is
supposed to make a difference. They shed mud well too, and they're
maintenance free.

I'm not all that familiar with the ATAC system - perhaps it's less
likely to "release when flailing" than SPD-style pedals. I'd be
curious to hear how they release in crashes - I've had incidents where
my pedals acted like "virtal platform pedals" when going over the bars
(more than once landing on my feet).

Quoted message said:

As I recall I went with the loose tension orientation.
Only problem I ever had releasing was when I lost one of the screws that
holds the cleat to the shoe. Now THAT was interesting!

I once had no luck clicking in after one muddy section (this was in
Seoul Korea where the mud is amazingly thick and sticky, stopping a
bike dead in one revolution of the knobby tire). I rode home, hosed
down the bike and realized after removing a few pounds of mud that the
offending cleat was still in the pedal (oh well, I needed new shoes
anyway).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Quoted message said:

Seems like maybe there's one more body dimension that could be taken into
account for proper bike fit.
--
PeteCresswell

I think you are right, my feet tend to be out on the pedals slightly,
and one leg tends to point inwards more than the other too, almost too
much to take out with cleat adjustment.

J

Per spademan o---[) *:

Quoted message said:

no problems with feet movig
about

An observation from the fringes of the bell curve: I seem to have an unusually
wide stance.

After some years of road riding with clips (the old kind...but constraining the
feet nevertheless) I developed chonic hip soreness. Nothing that would show up
on an x-ray... just enough to keep me from a decent night's sleep unless I
adopted some pretty weird positions.

For unrelated reasons, I quit riding.

When I resumed riding, it was MTB and I chose flats.

It's been about five years now, and no hip problems. The zinger is that I
notice that my feed always find the same position on the pedals: about 3/4" out
from center.

Seems like maybe there's one more body dimension that could be taken into
account for proper bike fit.
--
PeteCresswell

wow, I go away for a weekend and look what happens...

I'll put in my two cents, being a clipless rider who switched to flats for
the weekend for camp. ( a large platform that had a clip in the middle)

no mention of the different balance points of your feet. Clipped in, you are
balanced on the ball of your foot, with flats you would typically be
standing more on the arch or center of your foot.

I found that having the flats made a huge difference for situations where
you are sessioning on something, trying something new, stop/start on the
trail a lot especially where it's steep, rocky. etc. The split second you
might spend getting clipped in totally takes your focus away from what is in
front of you. Last year, this reallly messed me up, espcially getting
started in the middle of a line.

Once I trained myself to step onto the pedal with the center of my foot...
off and away I went. No delays trying for that "click". And yes, bailing or
putting a foot down is much easier. I can totally see that the trials/stunt
riders need to use this set up.

Will I keep these pedal or put my race clips back on? Too soo to tell, I'm
still recovering from a grueling weekend.
RR to follow at some point.... groan.....

Penny

Been thinking about the two-sided approach myself. Makes a lot of sense for
folks who ride one style and want to dabble in another. Other posters make
good points as well - sometimes it's just more comfortable to be able to
vary leg/foot position.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Now a days they have flat one side and
clipless on the other.

jack said:

"SuperG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I ride both. All the XC riding is with clipless, doing some trials with
the flats. Any thoughts on one or the other? My flat peddle riders say
they (flats) are better - they are afraid of the clipless saying they
are dangerous. It seems you need to have alot of time in the saddle to
"train" your feet to unclip properly - they seem to unclip fine every
time I fly over the bars and bounce off the ground... thoughts?

Clipless are good for XC rides, racing and generall overall riding.

For some people, not all. Generalizations are just that,
generalizations.

Quoted message said:

Flats are good for situations where you have to eject from the bike quickly.
Freeriding, dirt jumping, etc.

That's debatable because "dirt jumping" has nothing to do with mountain
biking...it's bmx.

Quoted message said:

Flats are superior as a teaching aid. Flat teaches you how to maintain you
CG (center of gravity) over your bike. Your foot coming off the pedal under
various riding conditions tells you you lost your CG. Flats teaches you use
your your upper body to control your CG.

By maintaining your CG you also become faster on your bike. Try riding a
rough downhill section and some whoops that gives you negative Gs with
flats. Footing slipping off or moving around. That means you lost your CG.
By pumping the fork and shifing your weight you should be able get through
that section like you're glued to the pedal. By doing so you just went
through the section at a faster pace. Clipless tends to mask your lost of
CG in this situation. Without feedback you can't correct.

This is all true, except the notion that flats are merely a teaching
aid. They're just pedals and either you ride them, or you don't. If
all of the roadies on mountain bikes want to remain slow in the dirt, I
say let them.

Quoted message said:

One thing clipless can do is the
pulling up of the cranks as you power out of the turns.

Flats with toeclips can do the same thing.

JD

small change said:

I'll put in my two cents, being a clipless rider who switched to flats for
the weekend for camp. ( a large platform that had a clip in the middle)

D00d! Flats? WTF?

LOL!

Quoted message said:

sessioning on something,

How do you "session" on something? Does it impact your leverage?

CC

Corvus Corvax said:

small change said:

I'll put in my two cents, being a clipless rider who switched to
flats for the weekend for camp. ( a large platform that had a clip
in the middle)

D00d! Flats? WTF?

LOL!

Quoted message said:

sessioning on something,

How do you "session" on something? Does it impact your leverage?

CC

that's the word for totally interrupting trail flow by stopping to work on
stuff on the trail. Group stops, coach discusses line, option, penalties,
etc etc,; demos, then we take turns with that particular turn/rock face/
section /jump whatever; everyone or most every one tries it, some take
multiple attempts, usually a wreck or two, then on to the next section where
we do it all over again. And again.

You probably know that, but I'm just so fried I'm missing the humor and
sarcams.

penny

ps, deliberate misspelling based on an old thread.

Coyoteboy said:

I did this once when i first put them on, it rather quickly becomes
second nature to whip them out, leaving accidents the only time when
you may be left clipped in.

J

Quoted message said:

Got rid of clipless the day I went to stop and the
right foot was still clipped in. Over I went with my foot
attached to the bike. But it was a matter of just removing the cleat
and retaining the platform pedal. Now a days they have flat one
side and clipless on the other.

two sided sucks, invariably the side you want to use is flipped down, and
you waste time and energy truing to flip the pedal around, usually when you
can least afford to.

penny

jack said:

"SuperG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I ride both. All the XC riding is with clipless, doing some trials
with the flats. Any thoughts on one or the other? My flat peddle
riders say they (flats) are better - they are afraid of the clipless
saying they are dangerous. It seems you need to have alot of time in
the saddle to "train" your feet to unclip properly - they seem to
unclip fine every time I fly over the bars and bounce off the
ground... thoughts?

Clipless are good for XC rides, racing and generall overall riding.

Flats are good for situations where you have to eject from the bike
quickly. Freeriding, dirt jumping, etc.

Flats are superior as a teaching aid. Flat teaches you how to
maintain you CG (center of gravity) over your bike. Your foot coming
off the pedal under various riding conditions tells you you lost your
CG. Flats teaches you use your your upper body to control your CG.

CG is depends on where your ass is, not your feet.

"GWood" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Been thinking about the two-sided approach myself. Makes a lot of sense
for
folks who ride one style and want to dabble in another. Other posters
make
good points as well - sometimes it's just more comfortable to be able to
vary leg/foot position.

The only time I fell when clipped in was when I was using flat one side /
clipless the other pedals. I thought, mistakenly that I was on the flats
and by the time the truth dawned I was well on my way to being horizontal.
Now I use only clipless both side pedals - less to think about that way.

small change said:

I'm just so fried I'm missing the humor and sarcams.

;-)

You're not missing much. I'm probably about equally fried from the race
yesterday.

CC

"JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

jack said:

"SuperG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I ride both. All the XC riding is with clipless, doing some trials

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the flats. Any thoughts on one or the other? My flat peddle riders say
they (flats) are better - they are afraid of the clipless saying they
are dangerous. It seems you need to have alot of time in the saddle to
"train" your feet to unclip properly - they seem to unclip fine every
time I fly over the bars and bounce off the ground... thoughts?

Clipless are good for XC rides, racing and generall overall riding.

For some people, not all. Generalizations are just that,
generalizations.

Ok, my answer is a lousy explanation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Flats are good for situations where you have to eject from the bike

quickly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Freeriding, dirt jumping, etc.

That's debatable because "dirt jumping" has nothing to do with mountain
biking...it's bmx.

Don't own a BMX bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Flats are superior as a teaching aid. Flat teaches you how to maintain

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

CG (center of gravity) over your bike. Your foot coming off the pedal

under

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

various riding conditions tells you you lost your CG. Flats teaches you

use

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your your upper body to control your CG.

By maintaining your CG you also become faster on your bike. Try riding

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rough downhill section and some whoops that gives you negative Gs with
flats. Footing slipping off or moving around. That means you lost your

CG.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

By pumping the fork and shifing your weight you should be able get

through

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that section like you're glued to the pedal. By doing so you just

went

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

through the section at a faster pace. Clipless tends to mask your lost

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

CG in this situation. Without feedback you can't correct.

This is all true, except the notion that flats are merely a teaching
aid. They're just pedals and either you ride them, or you don't. If
all of the roadies on mountain bikes want to remain slow in the dirt, I
say let them.

Yes pedals are just pedals. I like to demostrate to my roadie friends that
I can bunny hop my road bike that has Speedplay X2 pedals with street dress
shoes. Not the best pedals to do the demo since they are the size of a
flatten lolipop.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One thing clipless can do is the
pulling up of the cranks as you power out of the turns.

Flats with toeclips can do the same thing.

I ride with flats and clipless. Never rode with toeclips so I'll assume
that you are correct.