clipless vs toestraps vs platforms for a nervous cyclist?

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Velvet, Apr 10, 2003.

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  1. Alan Oakley

    Alan Oakley Guest

    On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:04:58 GMT, "Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >As a less than confident cyclist (in fact I hesitate to call myself a cyclist)
    Good on you for overcoming your fears and getting on a bike, you don't need to be able to ride 100+
    miles or go through the toughest MTB terrain to qualify.

    > and I'm aware there are combined platforms and spds, but not sure that's a very cost-effective way
    > to do it.
    >

    I have shimano PD-M324 (SPD on 1 side platform on the other). My route to work means that I cycle
    part country lanes and part in London traffic, train in the middle. Having both options is very
    useful. (It has taken me some time to sort out the sole plate position so that my foot and leg are
    positioned correctly when clipped in. This may be just me though.)

    So I have the best of both worlds a platform for those less confident town traffic moments and SPD
    for other times
     


  2. >As a less than confident cyclist (in fact I hesitate to call myself a cyclist)

    You are on a bike, Velvet, so you are a cyclist :)

    I have both Look clipless pedals & trad pedals with toeclips. I haven't tried spds.

    I found initial use of clipless pedals *interesting* :) It took a bit of time to remember to unclip
    in time before stopping, so as not to keel over to the ground, still attached to the bike. Having
    managed the inelegant act once, I realised there is one advantage to being a fatbirdonabike - the
    extra natural padding :)

    After that, everytime I went out on my bike for a while, accompanied by either son or husband, the
    standard cry on approaching a stopping point was "UNCLIP!!!!!" Once I got used to the clipping
    thing, I have to say that clipless pedals give a much more efficient pedalling action and I found I
    was cycling a bit further with a bit less effort.

    Being a cheapskate, I haven't yet got some overshoes for my Look shoes hence in the winter months
    it's back to trad pedals with trad toeclips and ordinary shoes. I wear a pair of fairly stiff soled
    black leather lace-ups with smooth surface to the soles. I find with trad toeclips I cannot have my
    toeclip strap clsoe or tight, as then I can't get my foot in or out of the toeclip. I really must
    get some overshoes for my Look shoes!

    Indeed a job this weekend is put my Look pedals on the bike, so I can get back to using the
    clipless. Now, why don't Lidl or Aldi to excellent value overshoes??? ;-)

    I'd say give clipless a go. Find a nice quiet spot with no traffic and practise using them, clipping
    in and out - you will most likely have a similar inelegant occurance as I did ;-) but if you keep at
    it it really becomes second nature very quickly - honest :)

    Cheers, helen s

    ~~~~~~~~~~
    Flush out that intestinal parasite and/or the waste product before sending a reply!

    Any speeliong mistake$ aR the resiult of my cats sitting on the keyboaRRRDdd
    ~~~~~~~~~~
     
  3. Peter Clinch

    Peter Clinch Guest

    Velvet wrote:

    > Are they easier to disengage than *loose* toe clips, though?

    SPuDs either disengage or they don't, whereas clips and straps you can have that awkward half-way
    thing. If you twist your foot out enough you're *out* of a clipless pedal, and that's that, where
    with a clip and strap there's always some possibility of getting caught.

    In traffic it's far simpler to pop out of a SPuD and just ride with your foot resting on the pedal
    than the equivalent manoeuvre with clips and straps, where you have to flip the pedal over with your
    foot and use the bottom.

    It'll take a little while (a week or so, I'd guess) to really get second nature at twisting out of a
    clipless pedal, but once you've got that it's easier than any degree of clips IME, including ones
    with no straps at all.

    But if you are worried about doing too much at once I'd be inclined to take the traps off your
    existing pedals and ride them with the cycling shoes rather than ride trainers in straps. The power
    loss from losing the straps will be offset by a stiffer sole, and it'll be more comfortable too as
    well as not giving you keeling over worries. Being clipped in (however it's done) is a Big Win over
    fair distances, but you're not really gaining that much on short trips in most cases.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
     
  4. Toby Barrett

    Toby Barrett Guest

    James Hodson <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > Of course, you will fall off - and that's an order. My first or two tumbles was outside my local
    > Sainsbury's on a busy Saturday afternoon. The worse thing that will probably happen is that your
    > cheeks will turn red with embarrassment.

    Am I the only person to have not fallen off because of SPDs? I've been using them for over two years
    and - with a couple of close shaves - have not yet tumbled. (I can't believe I'm typing this - guess
    what will hapen on the way home?)

    I use the Shimano multi-release cleats (SH55?) and keep the tension of the pedals fairly loose.

    Toby

    PS. I have, however, managed to fall off bikes for plenty of other reasons. Usually with
    an audience.

    --
    Remove spamtrap to reply by mail
     
  5. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    "Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:D[email protected]...

    (about light spds)

    > Are they easier to disengage than *loose* toe clips, though?

    oi reckon so. (assuming you mean loose clips + straps).

    I was very glad I'd learned spds before I took up mtb tandeming - it's so nice being able to put my
    foot down quickly (the heel swing is an automatic part of putting my foot down now), something I
    never made work with clips'n'straps.

    cheers, clive
     
  6. Tim Woodall

    Tim Woodall Guest

    On 11 Apr 2003 09:21:18 GMT, Toby Barrett <[email protected]> wrote:
    > James Hodson <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> Of course, you will fall off - and that's an order. My first or two tumbles was outside my local
    >> Sainsbury's on a busy Saturday afternoon. The worse thing that will probably happen is that your
    >> cheeks will turn red with embarrassment.
    >
    > Am I the only person to have not fallen off because of SPDs? I've been using them for over two
    > years and - with a couple of close shaves - have not yet tumbled. (I can't believe I'm typing this
    > - guess what will hapen on the way home?)
    >
    > I use the Shimano multi-release cleats (SH55?) and keep the tension of the pedals fairly loose.
    >
    It depends on how you define falling of because of clipless. I lost my chain off the inner chainring
    once and rather than stop I tried to pick it up again. Mad whirring of feet, clatter clatter of
    chain, "Oh Shit". Clonk.

    I've come close a few times, especially when trying not to unclip at junctions where the bike has
    fallen the "wrong way" and i've struggled to get my right foot out quickly enough.

    Regards,

    Tim.

    --
    God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

    http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
     
  7. Frank

    Frank Guest

    "Tim Woodall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > It depends on how you define falling of because of clipless. I lost my
    chain
    > off the inner chainring once and rather than stop I tried to pick it up again. Mad whirring of
    > feet, clatter clatter of chain, "Oh Shit". Clonk.
    >
    > I've come close a few times, especially when trying not to unclip at
    junctions
    > where the bike has fallen the "wrong way" and i've struggled to get my
    right
    > foot out quickly enough.
    >

    I fell off on my first ride with clipless when I forgot to unclip before stopping, standard comedy
    rigid topple over, but haven't fallen since.

    I don't routinely unclip before I stop now as I can instinctively unclip whenever I want to put my
    foot down.

    I think it is almost inevitable the novice will forget to unclip before stopping and hence panic and
    fall over. So rather than telling someone to always remember to unclip before stopping I would
    advise them to practice emergency unclipping (ie when starting to topple) in a safe and soft
    environment.

    I don't unclip at junctions unless I frightened there is a possiblity of falling in front of
    a moving ca

    > Regards,
    >
    > Tim.
    >
    > --
    > God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    >
    > http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
     
  8. Peter Clinch

    Peter Clinch Guest

    Frank wrote:

    > I fell off on my first ride with clipless when I forgot to unclip before stopping, standard comedy
    > rigid topple over, but haven't fallen since.
    >
    > I don't routinely unclip before I stop now as I can instinctively unclip whenever I want to put my
    > foot down.

    This can come back to haunt you... last time I borrowed a bike I braked smoothly to a halt, twisted
    my foot out and, errrr, nothing much happened because it had clips and straps. I *just* managed to
    yank my foot out before I keeled over.

    It's been a long time since I failed to escape on the road, though on the MTB (which I don't
    actually use that much) I usually manage around one failure per trip as I tend to grind to a halt
    having tried something completely beyond me. Most spectacular was thinking I ought to be able to
    ford the South Esk and meeting a rather large submerged rock half way that stopped me dead in my
    tracks... Hey ho, at least lycra's fast drying!

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
     
  9. Velvet,

    Velvet wrote:
    > Wow, wasn't expecting all those responses, knowing how often the clipless/notclipless topic gets
    > done to death on here...
    >
    > Thanks all. I'm not much clearer about if I should attempt spds yet or not. Balance at low speeds
    > seems ok in some circumstances, and crap in others (if pulling up to a junction I *have* been able
    > to slow down a lot, keep the balance going, whilst checking for a slot in traffic - but then
    > again, slowing down, balancing, and stopping well is pretty bad a lot of the time).
    >
    > Toestraps I have are nylon, fairly big, but not big enough to get the shimano shoes in ;-) That's
    > width, but more of it is height - the nylon front part of the strap arrangement (just what IS that
    > bit called!) keeps the strap reasonably low to the pedal - ok for trainers, bad news for the
    > deeper soled shimano shoes. The straps are permanently loose, there's no way on earth I'm going to
    > be leaning down tightening and releasing those things, I want to get out at any point!!! Oh, did I
    > mention I'm still mastering taking a hand off the bars too? ;-)
    >
    > I'm still not sure that maybe I should go for standard pedals till I master this balance/stopping
    > thing. Given I'm riding a totally different bike to the one I rode well over a decade ago (this
    > has drops, entirely different position, other one didn't, was a traditional girls/ladies bike) -
    > and that I'm attempting to ride on the roads and not the pavements (all previous cycling (which
    > was done as a kid) was on pavement not road) - I'm still wondering if I'm trying to adjust to too
    > many things different too fast, and whether I should just go for making it as simple as possible
    > and getting the other basics (like hands off bars for signalling, stopping/starting decently, etc)
    > sorted before attempting either toestraps or clipless...
    >

    I think you are quite right: keep it simple to start with. When you are more confident on your bike
    you can then worry about SPDs etc. So my advice would be to use standard platform pedals (your
    current pedals with the straps and clips removed?) with the cycling shoes you have and go out and
    enjoy yourself. If you later want to try something fancier then by all means do so, and come back
    here for lots more good advice :).

    I would also recommend reading "Cyclecraft" by John Franklin (ISBN: 0117020516) It really is a must
    for all cyclists, particularly new or returning cyclists.

    Enjoy yourself on your bike.

    Cheers

    Dave

    >
    > Once again, thanks for all the replies. I'll re-read them and mull it over some more.
    >
    > Velvet
     
  10. Andy Welch

    Andy Welch Guest

    On 10-Apr-2003, "Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > As a less than confident cyclist (in fact I hesitate to call myself a cyclist)

    Don't worry about that. Being a cyclist is just a state of mind and has nothing to do with ability.
    Good job too, since, compared with the pros, most of us on this group are pretty crap.

    I'd echo the bulk of advice to give SPDs a go. But you can also get little mini-toeclips. They
    replace the plastic bit that goes over the front of your shoe (no, I've no idea what it's called
    either) with a smaller version that only curves back about an inch or so and they don't have any
    straps. Not as efficient as SPDs by a long way but easy to get out of and should work with your
    shoes. In fact I think I may have a pair on my box of bits in the shed. I'll check this evening.
    If I have you are welcome to them. If not I think you can pick them up pretty cheap from places
    like Halfords.

    Cheers,

    Andy
     
  11. Velvet

    Velvet Guest

    "David Robertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > I think you are quite right: keep it simple to start with. When you are more confident on your
    > bike you can then worry about SPDs etc. So my advice would be to use standard platform pedals
    > (your current pedals with the straps and clips removed?) with the cycling shoes you have and go
    > out and enjoy yourself. If you later want to try something fancier then by all means do so, and
    > come back here for lots more good advice :).
    >
    > I would also recommend reading "Cyclecraft" by John Franklin (ISBN: 0117020516) It really is a
    > must for all cyclists, particularly new or returning cyclists.
    >
    > Enjoy yourself on your bike.
    >
    > Cheers
    >
    > Dave

    As chance would have it, I've just returned from the LBS, with a pair of metal cage type pedals
    (should provide plenty of grip with shoes) and a spanner to change them over (I'm a spanner-free
    household LOL). Existing pedals are shimano RX100's (sjscycles have photos of them) so not feasible
    to use those without the toestrap bits - they have an almost triangular-type shape forward of the
    spindle, and whilst I'm quite accomplished at pedalling on them if one's upside down, that's only
    with the trainers that flex and therefore allow my foot to mold to the shape of the underside! I'm
    hoping it won't take too long before I'm good enough at stopping etc to have the confidence, then
    I'll make the decision whether to go back to the toestraps, or the spds. LBS tried talking me into a
    pair of non-shimano spds with platform around them (double-sided) - but they reckoned that I'd be
    fine with spds and the single-release version at that, so I politely declined and pressed on with my
    original idea. I'm not daft enough to think I'd get on with single-release spds if I'm having
    confidence probs at the moment, it'll be multi for me, ta very much!!!

    On another note, I'm getting the feeling I should have got a built to order bike. I really do like
    mine, but with the amount of stuff I'm changing on it to get it to suit me, I'm starting to wonder!
    Went for a fitting a couple of weeks back, and was told the frame's actually too big for me! It was
    the smallest one with the other requirements I had (mostly, lightweight but with pannier mounting
    points) unless I got made-to-measure. Top tube is a couple of inches too long, whilst the bottom
    bracket to seat tube is right?!? Shorter reach stem, new set of narrower drops, and it feels better,
    though my brain still remembers the bike I rode as a kid and keeps niggling me to raise the bars
    higher :-(

    I've actually read cyclecraft, and am very lucky to have an experienced cyclist for my boyfriend,
    who seems to have digested cyclecraft in it's entirety too. Following him has two benefits, I've
    found. One, I learn what sitting in the right place on the road is like (when occupying lane on
    purpose to stop cars overtaking when they shouldn't), and two, I get a lovely view of a lithe fit
    young bloke ;-)

    One last question. With spds - how do you pedal with them clicked out? I assumed that would
    click them back in? do you have to click out, then shift the foot position so the cleat's not
    over the pedal?

    Velvet
     
  12. Peter Clinch

    Peter Clinch Guest

    Velvet wrote:
    >
    > One last question. With spds - how do you pedal with them clicked out? I assumed that would
    > click them back in? do you have to click out, then shift the foot position so the cleat's not
    > over the pedal?

    If you want to pedal with them clicked (like in traffic) out it's entirely likely that you'll be
    "idling" with no great force going into the pedals. In practice it's quite easy to stay unengaged at
    this sort of power input.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
     
  13. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    "Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > Existing pedals are shimano RX100's (sjscycles have photos of them) so not feasible to use those
    > without the toestrap bits - they have an almost
    triangular-type
    > shape forward of the spindle, and whilst I'm quite accomplished at
    pedalling
    > on them if one's upside down, that's only with the trainers that flex and therefore allow my foot
    > to mold to the shape of the underside!

    i foolishly got a pair like that once, thinking they looked the business. Dunno how long it took me
    to notice that they only work with cleated shoes (which I didn't have) as the plate at the back
    sticks up too much otherwise. The cheap quills/platforms I got later were much better.

    One thing it may be worth considering - the release action for clips/straps is completely different
    from that for clipless. Most of my problems when moving to spds were due to trying to pull back, as
    if I were in clips - this doesn't work! So if you don't get your body trained to do this, clipless
    may be really easy.

    cheers, clive
     
  14. Velvet

    Velvet Guest

    news:[email protected]...
    > "Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    > > Existing pedals are shimano RX100's (sjscycles have photos of them) so not
    feasible
    > > to use those without the toestrap bits - they have an almost
    > triangular-type
    > > shape forward of the spindle, and whilst I'm quite accomplished at
    > pedalling
    > > on them if one's upside down, that's only with the trainers that flex
    and
    > > therefore allow my foot to mold to the shape of the underside!
    >
    > i foolishly got a pair like that once, thinking they looked the business. Dunno how long it took
    > me to notice that they only work with cleated shoes (which I didn't have) as the plate at the back
    > sticks up too much
    otherwise.
    > The cheap quills/platforms I got later were much better.
    >
    > One thing it may be worth considering - the release action for
    clips/straps
    > is completely different from that for clipless. Most of my problems when moving to spds were due
    > to trying to pull back, as if I were in clips -
    this
    > doesn't work! So if you don't get your body trained to do this, clipless may be really easy.
    >
    > cheers, clive
    >
    >

    Yep, I can imagine. I still have to think about pulling back to get out of the straps, which is
    mostly ok on the left foot, but the right (when I topple the wrong way on stopping) has a very
    panicked yank to get it out, which is half back and half sideway.... I think part of the reason why
    I find getting out of toestraps not as hard as I might otherwise is cos I got back on a bike that
    had these on, so from day one I've had to learn to pull out backwards. I imagine once I've ridden
    with normal pedals for a bit, I'll have problems with both toestraps or spds, but I'd rather get the
    confidence in the rest of the bike handling skills first, I think. I know I get out the toestrap on
    the left side way way earlier than I need to, and rest the foot on the pedal upside down till I
    actually stop, and that's easy. It's when it comes to doing it unexpectedly that it goes horribly
    wrong, and I imagine it's the same with clipless?

    Anyway, be interesting to see what it feels like cycling with traditional pedals this weekend, and
    if it has any effect on the nerves. Did I mention before that I'd not ridden in traffic (or on the
    roads, for that matter!) before I got this bike, either? ;-)

    Certainly gets the heart going. Has anyone ever keeled over on a bike due to newbieness, excessive
    heart rate/adrenaline, and general mental overload? ;-)

    Velvet
     
  15. Peter Clinch

    Peter Clinch Guest

    Velvet wrote:

    > Certainly gets the heart going. Has anyone ever keeled over on a bike due to newbieness, excessive
    > heart rate/adrenaline, and general mental overload?

    Newbiness, certainly, second not really a problem, and for brain power it's generally mental
    *underload*, i.e., momentary complete vacancy, that does it. My flatmate has keeled over a few times
    in clips and straps just from being on Planet Xon in the 9th Dimension at the critical moment in
    time, AFAICT...

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
     
  16. Peter B

    Peter B Guest

    "Toby Barrett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Am I the only person to have not fallen off because of SPDs? I've been using them for over two
    > years and - with a couple of close shaves - have not yet tumbled. (I can't believe I'm typing this
    > - guess what will hapen on the way home?)

    I don't recall falling off because of spuds, certainly not on-road. I have fallen over whilst still
    clipped in off-road but think I would have fell over regardless of pedal/shoe interface.

    The difficult thing from me was the transition from toe-clips to clipless, in essence I'd already
    learned the technique for toe-clips somewhere in the distant past and then it becomes a small
    handicap as you have to "unlearn" the pull back instinct and develop the twist motion.

    At least if you go straight to spuds from nothing you only have one technique to develop.

    But the change was well worth it and I've never looked back. I can still recall the irritation of
    trying to get back into toe-clips after a dab off-road.

    Pete
     
  17. Velvet

    Velvet Guest

    "Peter B" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    <snipped>
    >
    > But the change was well worth it and I've never looked back. I can still recall the irritation of
    > trying to get back into toe-clips
    after
    > a dab off-road.
    >
    > Pete
    >
    >

    Interesting. Fitted the traditional pedals last night, and had a quick spin on the trainer - no
    laughing, thankyou ;-) My feet miss the toeclips! How bizarre is that :-( Feet pull back off the
    pedal, as if there's toeclips there (well, one does, the right stays firmly rooted, as it does when
    I stop in toeclips) - and I miss just being able to lift the right foot to be set for pushing off
    again - now there's all that flicking pedal up with foot under it to be done. And another concern
    (which I didn't realise) was that the pedals are slightly broader (the rx100's seem to be narrower
    by quite a bit!), and I'm a little wary of them catching whilst cornering, though from what I
    remember, I tend to coast through corners with the inside pedal high...

    The shoes, though. The wonderful wonderful shoes. They're amazing - I now realise just how bad it
    was, cycling in my worn out thin-soled ultra-flexible trainers. I'm stuck with great shoes and
    these pedals (which I'll try for a while anyway, till I've got the stopping thing sussed
    *properly*), or bad shoes and (to much great surprise) better pedals, unless I spring for a pair of
    clipless, which I still don't think I'm ready for, but am beginning to wonder about after last
    night's experiment. Flicking the heel out to unclip seems like no harder to learn than toeclips,
    but the concern is what happens in an abrupt and unforeseen stop - I'm very bad at those, even
    discounting what goes on with my feet!

    Argh! Why couldn't someone have decreed just one type of pedal and had it fitted to all bikes, right
    from day 1 learning, eh?

    Velvet
     
  18. James Hodson

    James Hodson Guest

    On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:54:09 GMT, "Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >One last question. With spds - how do you pedal with them clicked out? I assumed that would
    >click them back in? do you have to click out, then shift the foot position so the cleat's not
    >over the pedal?
    >

    Yup. Just ride with a non-cleated part of your shoe over the pedal. I usually use my heel. To
    get clipped in again all you need to do is stomp, assuming you have two-sided pedals (you know
    what I mean).

    Come to think of it, it's even better that that. You can ride using just one foot as you're fully
    attached with that shoe.

    James

    --
    A credit limit is NOT a target.
     
  19. > "Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:D[email protected]ews-text.cableinet.net...
    >
    > (about light spds)
    >
    > > Are they easier to disengage than *loose* toe clips, though?
    >
    > oi reckon so. (assuming you mean loose clips + straps).
    >
    > I was very glad I'd learned spds before I took up mtb tandeming - it's so nice being able to put
    > my foot down quickly (the heel swing is an automatic part of putting my foot down now), something
    > I never made work with clips'n'straps.

    It helps to put an elastic band between the pedals in order to keep the toe clip up. But SPDs are
    far superior.

    --
    Mvg, Marten
     
  20. Velvet

    Velvet Guest

    "Marten Hoffmann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > > "Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:D[email protected]...
    > >
    > > (about light spds)
    > >
    > > > Are they easier to disengage than *loose* toe clips, though?
    > >
    > > oi reckon so. (assuming you mean loose clips + straps).
    > >
    > > I was very glad I'd learned spds before I took up mtb tandeming - it's
    so
    > > nice being able to put my foot down quickly (the heel swing is an
    automatic
    > > part of putting my foot down now), something I never made work with clips'n'straps.
    >
    > It helps to put an elastic band between the pedals in order to keep the toe clip up. But SPDs are
    > far superior.
    >
    > --
    > Mvg, Marten

    Elastic band? I'm confused now - is this so the toe clip doesn't end up pointing to the ground? and
    if so, how on earth do you get the feet back in them?

    Velvet
     
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