Clippless Pedals and Hill Starts

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Timmy, Nov 21, 2004.

  1. hippy

    hippy Guest

    "Resound" <[email protected]
    > At the ball of the foot, which is after all the bit that sits on the
    > pedal, there's not much movement up/down or side to side, but I can
    > slide the shoes in and out of the straps fairly easily. The shoes are
    > Dunlop Volleys, so they do have a rubber sole, but it's pretty thin so
    > there's not much squish. I could certainly make them tighter, but not
    > for use on public roads. I suspect that a) I'd find the difference if I
    > used proper shoes/pedals and/or b) I'm not really getting anything like
    > as much out of the upstroke as I should and/or c) other points about my
    > untutored, untrained cycling suck so hard that while shoes/pedals would
    > make a difference, there are other things that I really need to attend
    > to as well to start moving along at a decent rate.


    The sooner people get into proper shoes the better..
    It makes for much better pedaling technique if you
    are 'connected' properly and with little risk of pulling
    a foot out or getting stuck in..
    Sure there's other things that will make you faster,
    but good technique becomes even more important
    once you have more power and leg speed at your
    disposal.

    hippy
     


  2. Dej

    Dej Guest

    "hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "Dej" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> I try not to unclip as my pedals are dodgy and are a pain to clip in..
    >> Also my smallest gear is a 21 so taking off from a standing start uphill
    >> aint easy:(

    >
    > I thought you were going to swap that for a 23T or 25T?
    > How are you finding it?
    >
    > hippy
    >

    nah kept the 21..
    its not *that* bad though i havent ridden 1/20 or wall yet (and i did have
    plans to tackle terrys ave in belgrave)
    I'll probably give mt dandy a ride this weekend and see how i go but
    honestly i thought it wasnt really that much harder.
    I did also go from 170mm cranks to 175 when i changed the gearing. whether
    that makes much difference i dont know:)

    What i do like is taking off from lights and being able to spin it up to 30+
    kph without having to change gears
     
  3. hippy

    hippy Guest

    "Tamyka Bell" <[email protected]> wrote
    > so took off in 42/12 which was a bit more painful than usual...


    Mmm.. hill sprints.. 53/14
    crawl uphill, SPRINT!!! roll back down, SPRINT!! etc..

    > > Just don't miss it! Ahh.. arrrr!.. CLANG... owww...

    >
    > My deepest most secret fear is now public.


    Sorry 'bout that chief!

    I'm still trying to work out if fast, twisty mtb downhills
    or track riding is my number one fear.. after last night
    probably track. I like brakes.. :)

    hippy
     
  4. hippy

    hippy Guest

    "Dej" <[email protected]> wrote
    > "hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > "Dej" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >> I try not to unclip as my pedals are dodgy and are a pain to clip in..
    > >> Also my smallest gear is a 21 so taking off from a standing start

    uphill
    > >> aint easy:(

    > >
    > > I thought you were going to swap that for a 23T or 25T?
    > > How are you finding it?
    > >

    > nah kept the 21..
    > its not *that* bad though i havent ridden 1/20 or wall yet (and i did have
    > plans to tackle terrys ave in belgrave)


    Up the 1:20 I'm often cruising nicely in the 2nd/3rd largest (easiest)
    rear cog (21T or 19T?)- so I guess if you're of comparable strength
    it shouldn't be too much bother. I can manage bigger gears up there
    but only if I'm actually trying to go fast (though hippy and 'fast uphill'
    don't typically go together).

    > I'll probably give mt dandy a ride this weekend and see how i go but
    > honestly i thought it wasnt really that much harder.
    > I did also go from 170mm cranks to 175 when i changed the gearing. whether
    > that makes much difference i dont know:)


    That would make a difference but I don't know how much..
    maybe the gun-toting and tree-hugging physics buffs can shed
    some light on it? ;-)

    > What i do like is taking off from lights and being able to spin it up to

    30+
    > kph without having to change gears


    Using Sheldon's gear calc.. the 32/15 SS @ 120rpm, 175mm
    should give 31.9kph. Pity it doesn't calculate at higher RPMs ;-)

    hippy
     
  5. ritcho

    ritcho New Member

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    The stiff soles of cycling shoes aren't to minimise 'squish' - they are stiff so you don't get sore feet. If the ball of your foot is in the middle of the pedal, you probably find your calves are growing like Schwarznegger's.

    You won't get much power from the upstroke, but you might lose less from *not* pushing downwards on the upstroke.

    Otoh, if you're going down to the shop to pick up the milk, it doesn't matter which shoes you use.

    Ritch
     
  6. hippy

    hippy Guest

    "ritcho" <[email protected]
    > The stiff soles of cycling shoes aren't to minimise 'squish' - they are
    > stiff so you don't get sore feet. If the ball of your foot is in the
    > middle of the pedal, you probably find your calves are growing like
    > Schwarznegger's.


    Huh? Then why do sprinters often not wear socks
    and why is there such emphasis on making soles super
    stiff?

    What's wrong with your football ( ;-) ) in the middle of
    the pedal? That's how most of the cycling docs I've read
    seems to suggest setting up with.

    "Cleats should be positioned fore/aft so that the ball of
    your foot is directly over the axle of the pedal."
    http://www.roadcycling.com/training/kneepain.shtml
    http://www.cptips.com/footsyn.htm
    I think sprinters set their feet further back?

    > You won't get much power from the upstroke, but you might lose less
    > from *not* pushing downwards on the upstroke.


    You shouldn't really pull up on the upstroke afaik. You
    are merely unweighting the upswinging pedal..

    > Otoh, if you're going down to the shop to pick up the milk, it doesn't
    > matter which shoes you use.


    Bare feet on cageless bmx beartraps on my old roadie :)
    They probably didn't hurt because I'd already killed all
    the nerves in my feet running across 50degC roads..

    hippy
     
  7. qtq

    qtq Guest

    hippy wrote:
    > "ritcho" <[email protected]
    > > The stiff soles of cycling shoes aren't to minimise 'squish' - they

    are
    > > stiff so you don't get sore feet. If the ball of your foot is in

    the
    > > middle of the pedal, you probably find your calves are growing like
    > > Schwarznegger's.

    > Huh? Then why do sprinters often not wear socks
    > and why is there such emphasis on making soles super
    > stiff?


    There are two kinds of stiffness, though. A typical sole both
    compresses and bends just proximal to the metatarsal heads. I think
    (without a lot of evidence for it) that the bending accounts for a lot
    more springiness than the compression when cycling with normal shoes.

    Cycling with stiff-soled shoes reduces that bending (at the cost of
    making it less comfortable to walk), so compression (plantar fat pads,
    socks, insoles) becomes much more important relatively. Bending at the
    MTP joint consumes very little energy, and socks don't have any
    strength in bending.

    -A
     
  8. Resound

    Resound New Member

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    Ah, so I am doing that bit more or less right then. I was wondering how much I was supposed to be putting into the upstroke, because I wasn't getting all that much. The "shovel scrape" bit I do manage (when I think about it) by extending the ankle at the bottom of the stroke, thus turning the pedal so I don't slip out. I do wonder if this is or isn't a bad idea though. I do still like the idea of getting proper shoes and pedals, I just can't really afford them and was wondering what I was missing out on. I should probably get cycling knicks first though. I can DEFINITELY see where they could help matters.
     
  9. ritcho

    ritcho New Member

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    Regarding the foot position issue, I recalled (through the haze) that I had read that "ball-over-the-pedal-axle" is not quite right. A bit of digging found it - an article by Steve Hogg on cyclingnews.com

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=2004/letters07-26 (near the bottom)

    Apparently it says it differs from 'received wisdom', so I don't know. I've tried varying the cleat position on my own shoes and definately felt better with the cleats set back a little...

    Bear traps were fine with bare feet when riding on flat ground, but I had a lot of trouble as soon as I got to the uphill driveway! :)

    Ritch
     
  10. tortoise

    tortoise New Member

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    Is there somethign wrong with me?

    I changed to clipless about 6 months ago, was riding in traffic within an hour and since then
    1. I find my pedalling is much more efficient
    2. I find them much easier to get in and out of than toe clips
    3. They have never come out when pushing up a hill
    4. I have never toppled over or even come close to it at traffic lights - unclipping has become second nature
    5. I have never had any trouble starting up a hill

    ...or are these famous last words
     
  11. Tamyka Bell

    Tamyka Bell Guest

    tortoise wrote:
    >
    > Is there somethign wrong with me?
    >
    > I changed to clipless about 6 months ago, was riding in traffic within
    > an hour and since then
    > 1. I find my pedalling is much more efficient
    > 2. I find them much easier to get in and out of than toe clips
    > 3. They have never come out when pushing up a hill
    > 4. I have never toppled over or even come close to it at traffic lights
    > - unclipping has become second nature
    > 5. I have never had any trouble starting up a hill
    >
    > ...or are these famous last words
    >
    > --
    > tortoise


    either

    1. you've never owned wellgo's (yep, they came out halfway across an
    uphill intersection take off, I had to bail and run my bike over the
    road)

    or

    2. you're not normal

    or

    3. famous last words

    Whichever it is, I'm jealous as all hell!

    T
     
  12. hippy

    hippy Guest

    "Resound" <[email protected]
    > Ah, so I am doing that bit more or less right then. I was wondering how
    > much I was supposed to be putting into the upstroke, because I wasn't
    > getting all that much. The "shovel scrape" bit I do manage (when I
    > think about it) by extending the ankle at the bottom of the stroke,
    > thus turning the pedal so I don't slip out. I do wonder if this is or
    > isn't a bad idea though. I do still like the idea of getting proper
    > shoes and pedals, I just can't really afford them and was wondering
    > what I was missing out on. I should probably get cycling knicks first
    > though. I can DEFINITELY see where they could help matters.


    You can keep your foot flatter on the bottom part
    of the stroke with clipless. But if the choice is knicks
    or clipless... go the knicks first.

    hippy
     
  13. hippy

    hippy Guest

    "tortoise" <[email protected]
    > Is there somethign wrong with me?
    > I changed to clipless about 6 months ago, was riding in traffic within
    > an hour and since then


    I started with clips/straps so the clipless transition
    was easy. What is "traffic" for you? Where do you ride?

    > 1. I find my pedalling is much more efficient
    > 2. I find them much easier to get in and out of than toe clips
    > 3. They have never come out when pushing up a hill


    Yep, yep, yep.

    > 4. I have never toppled over or even come close to it at traffic lights
    > - unclipping has become second nature


    I toppled more times with clips/straps, but I had them
    tight, i.e. I HAD to reach down and undo them to get
    out. I've toppled over with SPuDs I think.. I've definately
    toppled while trackstanding in SPuDs.

    > 5. I have never had any trouble starting up a hill
    > ..or are these famous last words


    Which pedal system? I still screw up my SPD-SL
    entries, having switched from SPDs.

    hippy
     
  14. qtq

    qtq Guest

    What do you do if you're clipped in, going uphill, and you drop the
    chain off the inner chainring? (I grabbed onto a parked vehicle, but
    it's a scary experience.)
     
  15. On 2004-11-23, qtq <[email protected]> wrote:
    > What do you do if you're clipped in, going uphill, and you drop the
    > chain off the inner chainring? (I grabbed onto a parked vehicle, but
    > it's a scary experience.)


    Panic? :)

    I'd probably try to remember to unclip ASAP -- it's about all you _can_
    do, really. Whether or not I'd actually _succeed_ is another question
    entirely. (Another graceful fall to the side might be the trick of the
    day :)

    --
    My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
    the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".
     
  16. aeek

    aeek New Member

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    nothing to stop you looking at all the different types of cleat systems and the best one may not have been released yet.
     
  17. DRS

    DRS Guest

    "ritcho" <[email protected]> wrote in
    message news:[email protected]

    [...]

    > Regarding the foot position issue, I recalled (through the haze) that
    > I had read that "ball-over-the-pedal-axle" is not quite right. A bit
    > of digging found it - an article by Steve Hogg on cyclingnews.com
    >
    > http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=2004/letters07-26 (near the
    > bottom)


    "Here is the sizing info you requested for cleat positioning. Shoe size 36 -
    38: centre of ball of foot 7mm in front of pedal axle; 39 - 41: 8mm; 42 -
    43: 9mm; 44 - 45: 10mm; 46 - 47: 11mm 48 - 50: 12mm. There are a number of
    qualifiers that I will attach to those recommendations. 1. This info is for
    road and mtb riders. For general track riding, I would reduce the amount of
    foot over the pedal by a mm or 2 depending on shoe size and event. For
    sprinters and kilo riders, I would halve the recommended amount of foot over
    the pedal. 2. If positioning someone in person, I might vary the above a mm
    or so either way depending on other factors. 3. For riders with an
    exceptional heel dropping pedalling style, I would increase the amount of
    foot over the pedal slightly. The converse is true for the exceptional toe
    down style pedallers. For both groups I'm talking about technique under
    moderately severe load, not cruising in a small gear pedalling fast. 4. For
    riders with a lot of heel lift in their shoe last, I would increase the
    amount of foot over the pedal slightly. 5. For riders with flexible soled
    shoe, I would increase the recommendation slightly as with this type of shoe
    the heel deflects downwards more under load."

    Hmmm. Much to ponder.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?
     
  18. kingsley

    kingsley Guest

    On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 14:07:49 +1000, Timmy wrote:

    > Ok, this must be the hardest thing to do on a bike.
    >
    > How do you season pro's tackle a hill start fromm a red light, whilst
    > using clippless pedals, and I am talking about a fairly steep hill ?


    Don't clip in until you get going.

    -kt
     
  19. hippy

    hippy Guest

    "qtq" <[email protected]> wrote
    > What do you do if you're clipped in, going uphill, and you drop the
    > chain off the inner chainring? (I grabbed onto a parked vehicle, but
    > it's a scary experience.)


    If you've still got momentum you try changing up
    'slowly' to force the chain back on a chainring.. depends
    on how bad a loss it was and how quick you react.

    hippy
     
  20. Brad Hubbard

    Brad Hubbard Guest

    hippy wrote:

    > "Timmy" <[email protected]> wrote
    >> Ok, this must be the hardest thing to do on a bike.

    >
    > Oh.. I dunno.. a double front flip is pretty hard...


    Don't laugh, I've done this, and then with the pain, blood, rash, casualty,
    staples, dressings...... yew.

    Not recommended.

    Brad
     
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