Coggans power table a poor guess?

[acoggan]

My "opinion", Andy, is based on 30 years experience as a competitive cyclist, 13 years Cat 1, many of which were at the national level and included two national level titles, and 10 years of professional coaching all levels of competitors including a few pro's. I think that's worth something, don't you?

Not, apparently, in this context (see more below).

Looking at the chart I have found that FTP is the most accurate in regards to power at Categories and L7 is the least....this is deducted from YEAR of practical experience. ......and here is a small example....Several of my Cat4/5 rides have high end L7 power( but don't yet have the experience to do well sprinting against many Cat 1 riders)...... Also, I have a couple VERY good Cat 1 riders and one pro that have quite poor L7 power. I attribute this to the fact that neuromuscular power is the most "genetic" of the "powers" and this is why your L7 column is the least accurate in my opinion.

I attribute it to the fact that you don't understand the ramifications of how the tables were developed, and more importantly, their purpose. IOW, of course you can be a cat. 1 on the road despite having poor neuromuscular power (I was), just like you can be a cat. 1 on the track despite having poor functional threshold power. However, it's unlikely you'll be a cat. 1 on the road if your functional threshold power is really low, just like it is unlikely you'll be a cat. 1 on the track if your neuromuscular power is really low - get it?

 

[Quadsweep]

Yeah, Dr. Coggan but don't you think that if the ramifications of the table was so much as you said then maybe you should have left out the categories. That was my original concern anyway.

Oh well, I am done here.

 

[acoggan]

Yes I can see your point Dr. Coggan but don't you think that if the ramifications of the table was so much as you said then maybe you should have left out the categories.

In fact, at one point I did just that, because I got tired of people misinterpreting the tables because they were apparently too lazy to read the explanatory material that I took the time to write. However, I was then convinced to bring them back (as rough guidelines) by elite coaches who said that they found them useful as another way of honing in on someone's abilities/limiters/potential (e.g., if you've got the functional threshold power of a cat. 2 but as a roadie are languishing in the cat. 4 ranks, it's likely that something other than your fitness/physical ability is what's holding you back).

 

[Quadsweep]

In fact, at one point I did just that, because I got tired of people misinterpreting the tables because they were apparently too lazy to read the explanatory material that I took the time to write. However, I was then convinced to bring them back (as rough guidelines) by elite coaches who said that they found them useful as another way of honing in on someone's abilities/limiters/potential (e.g., if you've got the functional threshold power of a cat. 2 but as a roadie are languishing in the cat. 4 ranks, it's likely that something other than your fitness/physical ability is what's holding you back).

Fair enough.

 

[Rocket^]

That's a valid point Dr. Coggan but don't you think that if the ramifications of the table was so much as you said then maybe you should have left out the categories. That was my original concern anyway.

Oh well, I am done here.

No, because then everyone and their brother would have been constantly asking, "What category is that equivalent to?"

 

[carmol]

No, because then everyone and their brother would have been constantly asking, "What category is that equivalent to?"

But now we're somehow at the same place. A cat 1 is not a cat 1 anymore...

 

[acoggan]

But now we're somehow at the same place. A cat 1 is not a cat 1 anymore...

We're in the same place we've always been: if you want to know at what category you can be competitive (and in what events), stop posting on internet forums and go race your bike. OTOH, if you want to better understand your relative strengths and weaknesses so that you can train and race better, measure your best power for 5 s, 1 min, 5 min, and ~60 min and evaluate the data using my tables.

 

[TiMan]

Yeah, Dr. Coggan but don't you think that if the ramifications of the table was so much as you said then maybe you should have left out the categories. That was my original concern anyway.

Oh well, I am done here.

Yup.


Andy, you probably have enough real data collected from riders in various cats to make a power table based on these facts.

 

[acoggan]

Andy, you probably have enough real data collected from riders in various cats to make a power table based on these facts.

I probably have/have access to more (and more varied) data than almost anyone else, but it's still not enough to create tables of the sort you seem to envision.

 

[carmol]

We're in the same place we've always been: if you want to know at what category you can be competitive (and in what events), stop posting on internet forums and go race your bike. OTOH, if you want to better understand your relative strengths and weaknesses so that you can train and race better, measure your best power for 5 s, 1 min, 5 min, and ~60 min and evaluate the data using my tables.

I don't have a problem with the table. I understood the nature of it bevore this discussion and for me, the table was and still is valuable.

But I was surprised to read, that the 5-s-column can be for trackies, while the FTP column is more for "regular" road racers. I have not read it excactly like that in the book, but I have to agree - I could have (note the example of the inverse V shaped profile of a poursuiter etc.).

 

[TiMan]

I probably have/have access to more (and more varied) data than almost anyone else, but it's still not enough to create tables of the sort you seem to envision.

That would be something very worth while to do though......so maybe in a few years it would be doable for you.
In your opinion how many riders(data) would you need in each level?

 

[acoggan]

That would be something very worth while to do though......

I don't think so, as it wouldn't really change how the tables are (meant to be) used.

In your opinion how many riders(data) would you need in each level?

My opinion isn't important here.

 

[acoggan]

I was surprised to read, that the 5-s-column can be for trackies, while the FTP column is more for "regular" road racers.

Neither (no) column is "for" any particular group of riders. The top most values of the 5 s and 1 min columns, though, are based on the performances of recent world champion/world record setting sprint cyclists, just as the top most values of the 5 min and functional threshold power columns are based on the performance of recent world champion/world record setting endurance cyclists. As I've discussed ad nauseaum, this will tend to make your weaknesses appear somewhat weaker than they really are compared to your likely competition, as you're being compared to specialists. The tables will, however, give you an accurate idea of how you compare to the best in the world across a spectrum of abilities. Moreover, it is impossible to develop track or road (or BMX, MTB, etc.) specific tables using the approach I've taken, simply due to the fact that many people compete in multiple disciplines.

 

[TiMan]

The top most values of the 5 s and 1 min columns, though, are based on the performances of recent world champion/world record setting sprint cyclists, just as the top most values of the 5 min and functional threshold power columns are based on the performance of recent world champion/world record setting endurance cyclists. As I've discussed ad nauseaum, this will tend to make your weaknesses appear somewhat weaker than they really are compared to your likely competition, as you're being compared to specialists.

Trouble is the best on the world take drugs, especially the road riders. This really scews things. So when you compare be sure to keep this in mind.

 

[acoggan]

Trouble is the best on the world take drugs, especially the road riders. This really scews things. So when you compare be sure to keep this in mind.

I'll be certain to pass your accusation along to those who were kind enough to share their chart-topping data with me.

 

[TiMan]

I'll be certain to pass your accusation along to those who were kind enough to share their chart-topping data with me.

PLEASE Andy, you don't actually believe that they are clean do you, especially in light of the recent "catches" in road racing the past few yeas.

 

[bikeguy]

Trouble is the best on the world take drugs, especially the road riders. This really scews things. So when you compare be sure to keep this in mind.

What would it be about road riding that makes it more of an advantage to take drugs over say sprint cycling? Anabolic steroids increase muscle mass, increase lean body mass and increase maximum power and available short term energy sources for short term high power events.

-bikeguy

 

[acoggan]

PLEASE Andy, you don't actually believe that they are clean do you, especially in light of the recent "catches" in road racing the past few yeas.

I know that the data at the top of the columns come from people who have never even been accused of taking drugs, much less caught taking them. Does that prove that they are "clean"? Obviously not - but I also have no reason (including, most importantly, their actual performance abilities) to believe otherwise.

 

[Quadsweep]

I know that the data at the top of the columns come from people who have never even been accused of taking drugs, much less caught taking them. Does that prove that they are "clean"? Obviously not - but I also have no reason (including, most importantly, their actual performance abilities) to believe otherwise.

hmmmm, good to know that much

 

[TiMan]

I know that the data at the top of the columns come from people who have never even been accused of taking drugs, much less caught taking them. Does that prove that they are "clean"? Obviously not - but I also have no reason (including, most importantly, their actual performance abilities) to believe otherwise.

Andy.....competing at the elite national level(and winning) without drugs, is like winning Miss America without make up.....I've been there....lived the culture.

Only guys that screw up get caught......guys like Landis, who forget to take off their post ride scrotal catch within 4-5 hours.....and guys that take their last EPO shot within 14 days of a tested race.