Comments on my race analysis?

[jdrds19]

Well, if you are looking for big numbers or pro data it aint here! This is just my humble data and analysis from a local cat 4/5 circuit race that I did on Sunday that I was hoping to get some feedback on - turn back now if not interested as this turned out to be pretty long!

This was my first race of the season and my first race with power data so any input is welcome. As a quick background, I've been doing mostly sst work plus random mtb efforts (no data) over the winter and some AP intervals for the past three weeks. My current ftp is ~240w. My best ever 1m and 5m are ~450w and ~305w but they were measured last fall when I first got the PT - they are both probably a bit off those values right now. I'm 68 kg. I didn't attempt to 'peak' at all for this race and came into it with a 68 CTL and a -22 TSB. The profile of the circuit looks like this:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c21/jdrds17/Tech/circuit_profile.jpg?t=1177447668

My power vs time for the first three laps (raw data and 30 sec smoothed curves):
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c21/jdrds17/Tech/PvsT.jpg?t=1177447812

My power vs distance for the first three laps (raw data and 30 sec smoothed curves):
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c21/jdrds17/Tech/PvsD.jpg?t=1177447778

Hopefully what you can see among the various corner and roller surges is the effort of going up the steeper part of the hill on laps 1 and 2 from about the 4.5 min mark to about the 8 min mark. These efforts were just enough to stay with the head of the field (top ~20) and were very hard. I generally sat in near the front and recovered on the downhill. At the start of the hill on L3 there was a significant surge (peak at ~3 min mark) that I went with, but that left me flat for the steeper parts (no peak at ~5 min mark). I got gapped at this point, chased for the rest of L3, but never got back to the real action and rode the last 3 laps tempo. Pa/Pn for L1, L2, L3, and L1-L3 combined were 206/249, 216/258, 230/247, and 218/251 respectively. My max 1 min was only 367w and my max 5 min was 279w, but that was actually at the end of L3 after chasing solo.

So, a bit better ftp would be good and seems within reach, but my real weakness is my AC - especially my ability to do repeats. Yes? No? Note that this is what my power profile suggested before I even went to the race! 1 min ON / 3 min off intervals at 400w here I come? Man, just typing it makes me uncomfortable!

 

[Woofer]

Well, if you are looking for big numbers or pro data it aint here! This is just my humble data and analysis from a local cat 4/5 circuit race that I did on Sunday that I was hoping to get some feedback on - turn back now if not interested as this turned out to be pretty long!

How about you tell us the length in time of the race and the average power and the normalized power?

 

[jdrds19]

How about you tell us the length in time of the race and the average power and the normalized power?

Length of time I was actually "racing" was only ~40 min. Avg power for those three laps was 218w, normalized power was 251w.

 

[Woofer]

I have similar numbers, with similar results, and the FTP power / weight ratio has to go up for better results, in spite of the power spike on the short hills, since the NP always seems to work out to around FTP for an hour or so.

 

[frenchyge]

I have similar numbers, with similar results, and the FTP power / weight ratio has to go up for better results, in spite of the power spike on the short hills, since the NP always seems to work out to around FTP for an hour or so.

Unfortunately, that was my first thought as well. A very cagey rider may be able to hang-on at that level, but for a hilly circuit like that I'd expect to be climbing comfortably ~5.8 W/kg for a couple minutes at a time with surges above that (cat 4).

Aside from that, great analysis! Was the surge on lap 3 a move that was sustained to the finish, or did some others maintain their pace and then catch back up during the steeper part of the climb?

 

[jdrds19]

Woofer: I have similar numbers, with similar results, and the FTP power / weight ratio has to go up for better results, in spite of the power spike on the short hills, since the NP always seems to work out to around FTP for an hour or so.

Frenchyge: Unfortunately, that was my first thought as well. A very cagey rider may be able to hang-on at that level, but for a hilly circuit like that I'd expect to be climbing comfortably ~5.8 W/kg for a couple minutes at a time with surges above that (cat 4).

I realize the numbers say I need another 10-15w FTP, which seems doable. I keep thinking, though, that having that ftp won't do me any good if I can't do the repeated surges to stay with the leaders. I don't think 5.8 W/kg (~400W) is ever going to be 'comfortable' for me. (I would define comfortable as less than or equal to VO2max.)

Frenchyge: Aside from that, great analysis! Was the surge on lap 3 a move that was sustained to the finish, or did some others maintain their pace and then catch back up during the steeper part of the climb?

A guy was actually off the front solo on lap 2. This guy is apparently a well known sandbagger. The surge was a bridge effort that was matched and then just morphed into a very disorganized chase. The guy stayed off the front solo the whole way. I heard the group kept up a hard pace but never really got organized and just shed more riders each lap. Places 2-20 ended up finishing together ~1min off the solo guy.

 

[frenchyge]

(I would define comfortable as less than or equal to VO2max.)

Sure. By comfortable I was meaning "well within my limit", for the duration in question.

I realize the numbers say I need another 10-15w FTP, which seems doable. I keep thinking, though, that having that ftp won't do me any good if I can't do the repeated surges to stay with the leaders.

That may be true, and it's certainly worth working on your higher intensity abilities. However, you also may discover that circuit races with repeated hard climbs simply aren't well suited to your abilities.

 

[Woofer]

In the last year I moved my 5 minute up to 340 with everything else staying the same, and it made *no* difference in my ability to stay with the group in longer races, because the cumulative effects of the short climbs still made FTP the determining factor because the *rest period* between the hills was correspondingly short as well.

 

[Ade Merckx]

In the last year I moved my 5 minute up to 340 with everything else staying the same, and it made *no* difference in my ability to stay with the group in longer races, because the cumulative effects of the short climbs still made FTP the determining factor because the *rest period* between the hills was correspondingly short as well.

Came across this little gem Woofer made last year which I must admit worried me a bit. Weekly 2hr undulating road races will start in 7 weeks time and I'm trying to raise my 5min power. But with FTP being the king I can't afford what Dr Andy C calls 'backsliding'. Can i get a way with one Vo2max sessions and a training race effort per week or do I need more. Current FT 300, 5min power ~370/380

 

[Woofer]

Came across this little gem Woofer made last year which I must admit worried me a bit. Weekly 2hr undulating road races will start in 7 weeks time and I'm trying to raise my 5min power. But with FTP being the king I can't afford what Dr Andy C calls 'backsliding'. Can i get a way with one Vo2max sessions and a training race effort per week or do I need more. Current FT 300, 5min power ~370/380

I find I can do one Vo2Max, two FTP workouts M-F and do another FTP workout and a training race effort (part of longer ride) on the weekend. Are you asking if you need to do more than one Vo2Max workout a week?

 

[Ade Merckx]

I find I can do one Vo2Max, two FTP workouts M-F and do another FTP workout and a training race effort (part of longer ride) on the weekend. Are you asking if you need to do more than one Vo2Max workout a week?

Yeah with 7 weeks to go I'm wondering if I need to do two weekly VO2max efforts to see inprovement... Yeah i know, it depends

 

[waterrockets]

I've found that raising my FTP raises everything. I have a strong sprinter's profile, and I've been working to bring the FTP up. It's up about 15W with 7 weeks of hard SST and longer intervals, but my 5m and 1m power have increased a similar %. My 5s power is about the same, but I am able to sprint at the higher end for more repititions now.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Yeah with 7 weeks to go I'm wondering if I need to do two weekly VO2max efforts to see inprovement... Yeah i know, it depends

7 weeks is a great time to introduce a single L5 session per week and see plenty of gains there. I also agree with waterrockets, continued L4 work will bring 5 minute power up as well. If you go to 2 L5 sessions per week your CTL will almost certainly drop. Are you prepared to start spending away your base in February? That depends on your goals, when your races start, what they'll be like, how long your season is, how much CTL you've already put in the bank, etc. No easy answers there.

Have you tried any of Bill Black's Hour of Power efforts? That's a great way to add some variable power dynamics to your training week in preparation for rolling courses and crits. If you pace them well you can sustain them for a lot longer and build or maintain a lot more CTL than you will with a pair of dedicated L5 days per week. Try a set with steady base power at ~85% of FTP with a seated burst every two or three minutes for 10-15 seconds quickly trying to settle back to your base power after each effort. Lots of variations exist, but you can work on your ability to quickly change speed and power and build FTP and CTL at the same time.

Good luck,
Dave

 

[Ade Merckx]

7 weeks is a great time to introduce a single L5 session per week and see plenty of gains there. I also agree with waterrockets, continued L4 work will bring 5 minute power up as well. If you go to 2 L5 sessions per week your CTL will almost certainly drop. Dave. Are you prepared to start spending away your base in February?

Absolutely not dude. i want the FT as high as possible

That depends on your goals, when your races start, what they'll be like, how long your season is, how much CTL you've already put in the bank, etc. No easy answers there.

Yes indeed i hear ya! I'd like to be competitive as much as poss - gain points and make 2nd cat by Summer. Our club road race is in mid March and there's a stage race I would like to do well in at the end of March. After that my next goals are August; vet nationals and a stage race

Have you tried any of Bill Black's Hour of Power efforts?

Yes I did the first one last night after a set of 6 x 4's, I took a ten minute rest and then 'Bill Black'd it' for an hour. Thanks I appreciate your input Dave. However despite reading library loads on VO2max I'm still not sure of its role in a typical UK 3rd cat road race in the South East where most climbs are just short drags of less than 2 mins. I guess what I'm asking is once you've got your FT up pretty high will VO2max work bring it any higher. Although I accept raising the roof gives you more room to fill.

 

[frenchyge]

I've found that raising my FTP raises everything.

That's my experience as well (and, I suspect, a reason that Dr. Coggan felt comfortable basing all power levels on FTP). Ade, I would continue to focus on FTP until you're really ready to peak. 5-min power will rise with FTP.

Although I accept raising the roof gives you more room to fill.

I don't think *just* the roof gets raised. I'd expect raising VO2max will raise a well-trained FTP also. You can do 1 session a week for much of the build period, or focus more heavily on it within a few weeks of your key events. For me, doing those L5 and L6 weeks is when I strap on the Superman cape, and I don't want to have to try to hold that for too long.

 

[Woofer]

Yes I did the first one last night after a set of 6 x 4's, I took a ten minute rest and then 'Bill Black'd it' for an hour. Thanks I appreciate your input Dave. However despite reading library loads on VO2max I'm still not sure of its role in a typical UK 3rd cat road race in the South East where most climbs are just short drags of less than 2 mins. I guess what I'm asking is once you've got your FT up pretty high will VO2max work bring it any higher. Although I accept raising the roof gives you more room to fill.

re: once a week Vo2Max is enough? somewhat off topic, but once a week.

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