Comments on new training routine



On May 1, 5:56 am, Bret <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 30, 8:16 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message

>
> >news:302341de-2bc7-41dd-8c64-7e1a353f0c7b@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

>
> > >  A final thing to remember is that recovery is extremely
> > > important. Your recovery days should be so slow that you'd be
> > > embarrassed if anyone saw you. Guess what, when they see your rear
> > > ride away on race day it doesn't matter that you rode slow on
> > > Wednesday evening on your recvoery ride!

>
> > That was an important statement and I wanted to underscore it. Riding easy
> > is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard. What's more you have to do a lot more ofit.
> > Staying in or below zone 2 is a key element in training on your off days..

>
> > Club rides are ALWAYS in Zone 3 which is the zone in which you can't recover
> > and can't improve. What's more, if you try to develop and group that rides
> > correctly it will always break up and most will try to ride too hard butnot
> > hard enough to train.

>
> If it's true that you get what you pay for, the above is the freeest
> koaching advice yet.
>
> If you want to get fast, get a small training group together of
> similar ability and do regular hard steady paceline rides like you're
> riding a team time trial. Go climbing with the group too. Do your
> intervals on the side. If the group won't do easy days, do that on the
> side too. If the group is dysfunctional, quit it and try again. Paypal
> donations CAN be sent to my email address above. If you don't believe
> that last part, prove me wrong.
>
> Bret


I'm having issues with my paypal now so you are SOL, but the advice is
good. That's what my 2 hour club training is. Team time trial starting
with about 15 guys, and as they fade they jump on the back. Toward the
end it is about 5 of us going all out. Quite fun and good training
too.

Joseph
 
On May 1, 1:53 am, "Off The Back" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I opined:
>
> >> The vast majority of
> >> bike racers do not work enough on their sprint.

>
> to which Robert Chung wrote:
>
> > The vast majority of bike racers are nowhere near the front at the end
> > of the race so there's not much reason for them to work on their
> > sprint.

>
> Maybe. It depends on the category and the kind of race. I think most license
> holders in the US are Masters Fatties... and lower category at that... and
> my observation is that a lot of those races come down to big bunch chaos....
> err, I mean, sprints. Instead of the 30+ mph train you would see near the
> end of higher-level races, the final kms of a cat 4 masters race look likea
> big wide blob with nobody interested in being on the front. They all think
> they can win, and thus all sprint from wherever they happen to find
> themselves in the blob. A guy who is brave, intelligent about positioning,
> and has worked on his sprint, can do well in that situation.
>
> Of course, as he moves on up the category ladder, he will find it
> increasingly important to have top aerobic fitness, which I think is your
> point.
>
> Markhttp://marcofanelli.blogspot.com


Right now working on my sprint is not a priority. Just finishing with
the group is. I perhaps flatter myself, but I don't think I need to
work specifically on my sprint anyway, as that is what I seem to have
been made for.

As I have previoulsy lamented, they don't separate into categories
here, so the finishes are most certainly not big blobs. Some of the TT
types try to get away, and the sprinters (along with everyone else)
trys to keep them from getting away. More than a few of those TT guys
do ITTs at 49km/h so the pace is usually high. Sometimes it bunches
up, but it never just rolls along waiting for a sprint.

But that is a situation I'll worry about dealing with later.

Joseph
 
On May 1, 4:02 am, [email protected] wrote:


> Try to mix up the times a bit. Throw in some shorter more intense
> quick bursts and lengthen out those 2.5's to 4 or 5 minutes and see
> how it works for you.
>


I'm going to do that. 2 more weeks of what I've been doing, then a
slightly more varied routine.

Joseph
 
Robert Chung wrote:
>> >> You're saying pounding it will help you lose that much weight?


[email protected] wrote:
>> > Well the riding isn't helping...

Donald Munro wrote:
>> <http://www.dailymuscle.com/2006/05/12/lets-talk-about-sex-and-calories/>


[email protected] wrote:
> I suppose it becomes a question of quality vs quantity.


And recovery. That's why they have programs in Chile.
 
"Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:71c2a90c-92f2-46e1-a8bb-00a31efc4c07@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 30, 8:16 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message

> news:302341de-2bc7-41dd-8c64-7e1a353f0c7b@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> > > A final thing to remember is that recovery is extremely
> > > important. Your recovery days should be so slow that you'd be
> > > embarrassed if anyone saw you. Guess what, when they see your rear
> > > ride away on race day it doesn't matter that you rode slow on
> > > Wednesday evening on your recvoery ride!

> >
> > That was an important statement and I wanted to underscore it. Riding
> > easy
> > is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard. What's more you have to do a lot more of
> > it.
> > Staying in or below zone 2 is a key element in training on your off
> > days.
> >
> > Club rides are ALWAYS in Zone 3 which is the zone in which you can't
> > recover
> > and can't improve. What's more, if you try to develop and group that
> > rides
> > correctly it will always break up and most will try to ride too hard but
> > not
> > hard enough to train.

>
> If it's true that you get what you pay for, the above is the freeest
> koaching advice yet.


And then to prove just how bright he is:

> If you want to get fast, get a small training group together of
> similar ability and do regular hard steady paceline rides like you're
> riding a team time trial. Go climbing with the group too. Do your
> intervals on the side. If the group won't do easy days, do that on the
> side too. If the group is dysfunctional, quit it and try again.


Hmm, same advice save he believes that you can get your friends to train you
instead of just getting tired themselves.

No wonder you've done so wonderfully in the racing world Bret.
 
Tom Kunich wrote:
> No wonder you've done so wonderfully in the racing world Bret.


He's done a bit better than you have.
 
On Apr 30, 7:16 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

> Riding easy is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard.


No.
 
On May 1, 8:26 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:71c2a90c-92f2-46e1-a8bb-00a31efc4c07@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 30, 8:16 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > <[email protected]> wrote in message

> >news:302341de-2bc7-41dd-8c64-7e1a353f0c7b@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> > > > A final thing to remember is that recovery is extremely
> > > > important. Your recovery days should be so slow that you'd be
> > > > embarrassed if anyone saw you. Guess what, when they see your rear
> > > > ride away on race day it doesn't matter that you rode slow on
> > > > Wednesday evening on your recvoery ride!

>
> > > That was an important statement and I wanted to underscore it. Riding
> > > easy
> > > is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard. What's more you have to do a lot more of
> > > it.
> > > Staying in or below zone 2 is a key element in training on your off
> > > days.

>
> > > Club rides are ALWAYS in Zone 3 which is the zone in which you can't
> > > recover
> > > and can't improve. What's more, if you try to develop and group that
> > > rides
> > > correctly it will always break up and most will try to ride too hard but
> > > not
> > > hard enough to train.

>
> > If it's true that you get what you pay for, the above is the freeest
> > koaching advice yet.

>
> And then to prove just how bright he is:
>
> > If you want to get fast, get a small training group together of
> > similar ability and do regular hard steady paceline rides like you're
> > riding a team time trial. Go climbing with the group too. Do your
> > intervals on the side. If the group won't do easy days, do that on the
> > side too. If the group is dysfunctional, quit it and try again.

>
> Hmm, same advice save he believes that you can get your friends to train you
> instead of just getting tired themselves.


It's a mutually beneficial relationship. You just need to find a few
people with similar ability and training philosophy.

>
> No wonder you've done so wonderfully in the racing world Bret.


My talent level was a limiting factor. One of my training partners won
a FM world road race title. He believed our paceline rides were an
important part of his training.

Bret
 
"Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On May 1, 8:26 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >
> > Hmm, same advice save he believes that you can get your friends to train
> > you
> > instead of just getting tired themselves.

>
> It's a mutually beneficial relationship. You just need to find a few
> people with similar ability and training philosophy.


Bret, why do you feel the need to start a fight to prove nothing at all? In
case you missed it, professionals train almost entirely on their own for
their strength training.

> > No wonder you've done so wonderfully in the racing world Bret.

>
> My talent level was a limiting factor. One of my training partners won
> a FM world road race title. He believed our paceline rides were an
> important part of his training.


What he believes and what is the truth could be completely different.

Look, the reason that MOST people can't get good at racing isn't because of
their talent but because of the motivation it takes to train yourself up.
Especially in the lower classes most people aren't even at the level where
they can benefit from a difficult training regime. That means that they have
to concentrate entirely on strength training just to get up to where they
can do a decent endurance training schedule.

It's nice that you have a group with similar capabilities but my experience
with these groups is that most of the group are not at the level of the
minority of fast guys. That means that when the fast guys are riding easy
the rest of the group are well into level 3 heart rates. Level 3 is too fast
to recover and too slow to benefit. The result of such train WILL give you
some benefit but very little and only over a very long time.

What's more, inevitably these groups become competitive with each other and
simply burn out the riders instead of training them. There are three local
"racing" groups in my area that "train" and the fact is that it is very rare
that a single person on one of those "teams" shows up at a real race.

And I've tried to put together training groups that would train properly
only to find that people simply cannot bring themselves to ride hard enough
on the hard days and easy enough on the easy days. So I finally realized
that you train yourself the majority of the time and you use races -
especially if you're lucky enough to live in an area that has after-work one
day a week crits - to build racing strength.

And as I said above - unless you can run at or very near the front of a Cat
4 Crit race you probably aren't fit enough to benefit from a regular
training regime and you need to train for THAT before you can train properly
for advancing in the categories.


Bret
 
"SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:48434d91-515a-4f14-ad7b-19f2cabd1695@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 30, 7:16 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> > Riding easy is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard.

>
> No.


Whether you believe it or not it is so.
 
On May 1, 2:17 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
> On May 1, 8:26 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Hmm, same advice save he believes that you can get your friends to train
> > > you
> > > instead of just getting tired themselves.

>
> > It's a mutually beneficial relationship. You just need to find a few
> > people with similar ability and training philosophy.

>
> Bret, why do you feel the need to start a fight to prove nothing at all? In
> case you missed it, professionals train almost entirely on their own for
> their strength training.


Your koaching advice is so far off the mark that it needs to be
countered.

>
> > > No wonder you've done so wonderfully in the racing world Bret.

>
> > My talent level was a limiting factor. One of my training partners won
> > a FM world road race title. He believed our paceline rides were an
> > important part of his training.

>
> What he believes and what is the truth could be completely different.


He is a former pro and olympian. He knows more about training than you
do.

Bret
 
"Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ad02fd0b-9e7a-4d67-9189-cd50d2a58a5d@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On May 1, 2:17 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > news:[email protected]...
> > On May 1, 8:26 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > > > Hmm, same advice save he believes that you can get your friends to
> > > > train
> > > > you instead of just getting tired themselves.

> >
> > > It's a mutually beneficial relationship. You just need to find a few
> > > people with similar ability and training philosophy.

> >
> > Bret, why do you feel the need to start a fight to prove nothing at all?
> > In
> > case you missed it, professionals train almost entirely on their own for
> > their strength training.

>
> Your koaching advice is so far off the mark that it needs to be
> countered.


Sorry, it's your inability to do anything here but pick fights that is off
the mark. The fact is that most successful cyclists train solo most of the
time. Amateurs successes almost always denote natural ability and not
training knowledge.

> > > My talent level was a limiting factor. One of my training partners won
> > > a FM world road race title. He believed our paceline rides were an
> > > important part of his training.

> >
> > What he believes and what is the truth could be completely different.

>
> He is a former pro and olympian. He knows more about training than you
> do.


A "pro" at what level?
 
On May 1, 4:09 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:ad02fd0b-9e7a-4d67-9189-cd50d2a58a5d@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On May 1, 2:17 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>
> > >news:[email protected]....
> > > On May 1, 8:26 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > > > > Hmm, same advice save he believes that you can get your friends to
> > > > > train
> > > > > you instead of just getting tired themselves.

>
> > > > It's a mutually beneficial relationship. You just need to find a few
> > > > people with similar ability and training philosophy.

>
> > > Bret, why do you feel the need to start a fight to prove nothing at all?
> > > In
> > > case you missed it, professionals train almost entirely on their own for
> > > their strength training.

>
> > Your koaching advice is so far off the mark that it needs to be
> > countered.

>
> Sorry, it's your inability to do anything here but pick fights that is off
> the mark. The fact is that most successful cyclists train solo most of the
> time. Amateurs successes almost always denote natural ability and not
> training knowledge.
>
> > > > My talent level was a limiting factor. One of my training partners won
> > > > a FM world road race title. He believed our paceline rides were an
> > > > important part of his training.

>
> > > What he believes and what is the truth could be completely different.

>
> > He is a former pro and olympian. He knows more about training than you
> > do.

>
> A "pro" at what level?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Tom,

Have you noticed that the only person Bret ever picks a fight with is
YOU? He's not really picking a fight, he's just goading you to see
how you'll react. Like Ol' Faithful, you respond by spewing hot air
every time. I can just see Bret hunkered down at his desk, grinning
like a mule eating briars, every time he hooks you in. Okay, I'm
kidding, Bret doesn't grin like a mule. He's really more like
smirking at the thought. But, I digress.

Perhaps YOU should get this through your head. Bret (and most others
on R.B.R.) has forgotten more about training and racing than you'll
know. What you don't seem to understand is that when Bret references
getting together for a group hammerfest, he's not talking about just
showing up at the local gathering place for an afternoon ride, where
you'll find riders of all manner of divergent capability. He's
talking about getting together with a limited number of teammates and
possibly a few other invited friends, ALL of whom are elite (in so far
as fatty masters can be elite) cyclists. Some are former pros. All
are still very fast, some fast enough to be competitive in the local
CO Pro/I/II races. Hell, he's got enough co-workers (that's right, co-
workers) who meet the conditions I mention to put together a very
capable team time trial squad.

Or, maybe you're right. Bret is just argumentative.
 
On May 1, 1:18 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:48434d91-515a-4f14-ad7b-19f2cabd1695@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 30, 7:16 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Riding easy is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard.

>
> > No.

>
> Whether you believe it or not it is so.


To win, you must turn a 12. To turn a 12, you must train hard.
 
On May 1, 4:09 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:ad02fd0b-9e7a-4d67-9189-cd50d2a58a5d@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On May 1, 2:17 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>
> > >news:[email protected]....
> > > On May 1, 8:26 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > > > > Hmm, same advice save he believes that you can get your friends to
> > > > > train
> > > > > you instead of just getting tired themselves.

>
> > > > It's a mutually beneficial relationship. You just need to find a few
> > > > people with similar ability and training philosophy.

>
> > > Bret, why do you feel the need to start a fight to prove nothing at all?
> > > In
> > > case you missed it, professionals train almost entirely on their own for
> > > their strength training.

>
> > Your koaching advice is so far off the mark that it needs to be
> > countered.

>
> Sorry, it's your inability to do anything here but pick fights that is off
> the mark. The fact is that most successful cyclists train solo most of the
> time. Amateurs successes almost always denote natural ability and not
> training knowledge.
>
> > > > My talent level was a limiting factor. One of my training partners won
> > > > a FM world road race title. He believed our paceline rides were an
> > > > important part of his training.

>
> > > What he believes and what is the truth could be completely different.

>
> > He is a former pro and olympian. He knows more about training than you
> > do.

>
> A "pro" at what level?


One of the top north american pros in the 80's. Some euro experience.

Bret
 
On May 1, 4:22 pm, Scott <[email protected]> wrote:

>  I can just see Bret hunkered down at his desk, grinning
> like a mule eating briars, every time he hooks you in.  Okay, I'm
> kidding, Bret doesn't grin like a mule.  He's really more like
> smirking at the thought.  But, I digress.


Smirking maybe, but I don't hunker.

> Hell, he's got enough co-workers (that's right, co-
> workers) who meet the conditions I mention to put together a very
> capable team time trial squad.


What's more surprising is that three of us in the company have
completed ski marathons.

Bret
 
"Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:06f5a5f0-cdd3-4720-aefe-ddbce96217f3@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Have you noticed that the only person Bret ever picks a fight with is
> YOU?


Yeah, since I'm the only one here that doesn't take his postings as gospel.
Why don't you remove your lips from his anus?

> Perhaps YOU should get this through your head. Bret (and most others
> on R.B.R.) has forgotten more about training and racing than you'll
> know.


I see you're french-kissing it.
 
"Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ba0ae290-8f04-4825-9fa9-25573308cb8b@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> One of the top north american pros in the 80's. Some euro experience.


Bret, how successful were our 80's "pros" in Europe? Could it be that they
didn't know how to properly train? Why is it that today's Pros can make the
transition and in the 80's they felt delighted to finish a European race?
 
"SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On May 1, 1:18 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "SLAVE of THE STATE" <[email protected]> wrote in
> messagenews:48434d91-515a-4f14-ad7b-19f2cabd1695@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Apr 30, 7:16 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > > > Riding easy is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard.

> >
> > > No.

> >
> > Whether you believe it or not it is so.

>
> To win, you must turn a 12. To turn a 12, you must train hard.


Where precisely did I say that you don't have to train hard. What I said is
that you have to ALSO do EASY recovery rides. The difference is that when
you're trained up high enough your "easy" ride is very often a great deal
harder than most riders can do.

By the way - how do you explain the fact that there have been a lot of
stages in the big three using compact cranks?

53 - 13 = 4.07
50 - 12 = 4.16

That's a 2% difference.
 
On May 1, 5:46 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:ba0ae290-8f04-4825-9fa9-25573308cb8b@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > One of the top north american pros in the 80's. Some euro experience.

>
> Bret, how successful were our 80's "pros" in Europe? Could it be that they
> didn't know how to properly train? Why is it that today's Pros can make the
> transition and in the 80's they felt delighted to finish a European race?


I'm definitely smirking now. Several north americans made the
transition quit well in the 80's. Are you forgetting who crushed
Breukink on the Gavia?

Bret
 

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