Comments on new training routine

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On May 2, 4:02 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 1, 5:55 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 30, 7:16 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> > > Riding easy is AS IMPORTANT as riding hard.
>
> > No.
>
> I think I agree.

If he would have left out the screeching "AS IMPORTANT" there would
have been nothing much to make of a deal of, or even disagree with.

Some of us have raced on 8-12 hr a week of training. An "easy" day
for me was more often a day I didn't even get on the bike, and there
were plenty of those. Enough "rest" wasn't so hard to do. Conditions
forced it.

There wasn't much time on the bike, so a good share of it was
"hard."

> What maybe is applicable for pros at the outer fringe
> of possible fitness levels and with massive training volume and work
> levels may not be so for guys like me who are just farting along in
> comparison.
>
> In other words, I am so far away from being over-trained that easy
> rides don't have such an important place for me. That doesn't mean I
> go hard all the time, I don't have the mental toughness (nor desire)
> for that. It just means that if I go half-hard sometimes instead of
> easy, it's not the end of the world.

For the situation facing a lot of amateurs, I think a back off during
the week leading to a weekend race covers most of the physical "rest"
they will need. At least that is what I noticed about my body. I'd
have just that little bit extra punch and few matches if I backed off
a bit. I'm sure different people have varying sensitivity.

But the "regular" training was routinely hard. I trained with people
that were better than me -- I was routinely pushed to my limits. That
is how I increased those limits -- not by going "easy." And no, I
could not fully recover from these training rides in one day. By
"recover" I mean go that fast again in combination with sustaining it,
or repeating as many hard intervals as fast.

 

[Donald Munro]

Bret wrote:
>>> I'm definitely smirking now. Several north americans made the
>>> transition quit well in the 80's. Are you forgetting who crushed
>>> Breukink on the Gavia?

Bob Schwartz wrote:
>> Good troll.

Ted van de Weteringe wrote:
> But what if I don't respond? Ah, damn.

Learn some Perl and write yourself an ED bot. You could perhaps base
it on the BART alter ego from a few years back.

 

[Donald Munro]

Tom Kunich wrote:
>> What tends to separate the greats from the also-rans is the fact that
>> they CAN focus on their specific training needs while alone.

[email protected] wrote:
> Maybe they also were taking vitamins. Or E-Caps.

and mineral water.


>> Tell me, do you believe that those shots of Lance riding all of the cols
>> alone on training rides were just shot for that video?

> Everyone hated him, so he couldn't get any riding partners?

I'm sure Simeoni would have been his partner.

 

[Donald Munro]

Bret wrote:
>>You're a numbskull. Last week you were claiming that only training races
>>will get you fit for racing. This week you claim that solo riding is the
>>ticket. My favorite still is your claim that interval efforts are maximum
>>efforts indistinguishable from sprint efforts and that anything else is
>>not a proper interval.

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> You're finally realizing he can't not argue/say something dopey?

Nature or nurture ? **** OR GET OFF THE POT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On May 2, 8:44 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> It's just that even on days when I ride very hard for example trying
> to keep up with some faster buddies on a fast team time-trial type
> ride, the next day I am always fresh.

Perhaps that is good training for sustained power, I don't know.

I doubt it does as much for mass start type races as more interval
type training does.

> I don't think I am capable of
> doing enough work in a workout to not be able to recover in one day.
> If I were stronger (like a pro), I could do more, and then maybe one
> day wouldn't be enough.

IF YOUR LEG MUSCLES ARE NOT CHRONICALLY SORE EXCEPT FOR BACKOFF ON
RACE WEEKS, THEN YOU NEED TO TRAIN HARDER!!!! IF YOU ARE RECOVERING
IN ONE DAY, YOU ARE NOT TRAINING HARD ENOUGH!!!!

How is that for screeching?

 

[Donald Munro]

Scott wrote:
> Thanks for staying true to form. Can't refute the argument, so you resort
> to playground-like tactics of trying to insult me.

His programmer wanted him to beta test the new insult generator. You've
got to admit it's a slight improvement on version 0.1 which would probably
just have accused you of being gay.

 

[Donald Munro]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> From your guys discussions here I can well imagine the "team" sport.

Scwartzsoft must really have put quite a few hours of work into the
new insult generator.

 

[[email protected]]

On May 2, 6:39 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 2, 8:44 am, "[email protected]"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > It's just that even on days when I ride very hard for example trying
> > to keep up with some faster buddies on a fast team time-trial type
> > ride, the next day I am always fresh.
>
> Perhaps that is good training for sustained power, I don't know.

The rides I have in mind are with 5 riders, 1.5 hours or so with
probably average HR at 85-90%. I am wasted when these rides are over.

>
> I doubt it does as much for mass start type races as more interval
> type training does.

That may very well be. And as that is where I get dropped, that's why
I decided to add some intervals.

> > I don't think I am capable of
> > doing enough work in a workout to not be able to recover in one day.
> > If I were stronger (like a pro), I could do more, and then maybe one
> > day wouldn't be enough.
>
> IF YOUR LEG MUSCLES ARE NOT CHRONICALLY SORE EXCEPT FOR BACKOFF ON
> RACE WEEKS, THEN YOU NEED TO TRAIN HARDER!!!!  IF YOU ARE RECOVERING
> IN ONE DAY, YOU ARE NOT TRAINING HARD ENOUGH!!!!
>
> How is that for screeching?

Maybe I recover well, maybe my cardio is way behind my muscular
development, but even after monster efforts, 24h is more than enough
to feel fresh. I must be lazier than I thought...

Joseph

 

[Bret]

On May 2, 7:48 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:c5863247-32f4-43c8-b991-0b7ce79c7a5a@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > The few times I've observed Andy training he wasn't alone. If he was
> > alone then I would definitely have missed it. But I didn't miss it.
>
> Followed by:
>
> > Does motor pacing count as training alone?
>
> Thanks. That pretty much showed what you're trying to do.
>
> > You're a numbskull. Last week you were claiming that only training
> > races will get you fit for racing.
>
> Last week we were talking about amateur racing with amatuer racers. This
> week we're talking about professionals and their training. But then it is
> plain that you don't know there's a difference nor why.

No, this thread was about amateur training rides. You attempted to
discredit my advice by saying I sucked as a racer, like you're one to
talk. I pointed out that my ex-pro training partner was not so sucky
as I and was very experienced. Then you tried to trump that by
alleging that other more famous pros trained solo and that my friend
must have sucked because he raced pro in the 80's. Now you are saying
that one can't compare amateurs to pros. Your debating style while
tactically deficient, only really sucks hard when you examine the long
term strategy.

Bret

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:118eff77-45df-4de4-abb4-68682a77ee3d@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On May 1, 5:45 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > "Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > news:06f5a5f0-cdd3-4720-aefe-ddbce96217f3@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> > > Have you noticed that the only person Bret ever picks a fight with is
> > > YOU?
> >
> > Yeah, since I'm the only one here that doesn't take his postings as
> > gospel.
> > Why don't you remove your lips from his anus?
> >
> > > Perhaps YOU should get this through your head. Bret (and most others
> > > on R.B.R.) has forgotten more about training and racing than you'll
> > > know.
> >
> > I see you're french-kissing it.
>
> Thanks for staying true to form. Can't refute the argument, so you
> resort to playground-like tactics of trying to insult me.

What argument Scott? Your claim that Bret knows all there is to know about
training?

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Bret" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:585d23e4-5fdc-491f-bb91-5383066d303f@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> No, this thread was about amateur training rides. You attempted to
> discredit my advice by saying I sucked as a racer

Excuse me? Where did I say that? Not being a "real" pro level racer ain't
the same as "sucking" but since all you want to do is argue you're willing
to assume just about anything.

> I pointed out that my ex-pro training partner was not so sucky
> as I and was very experienced.

And yet he was not a top level pro in Europe. Exactly why is it that you
want to argue about that? Is it because you like to get wannabees in your
training group so that you can make yourself feel better by dropping them?

 

[Tom Kunich]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> It's just that even on days when I ride very hard for example trying
> to keep up with some faster buddies on a fast team time-trial type
> ride, the next day I am always fresh.

1) How old are you? You sound as if you're in your early 30's. That's
certainly an advantage for fast recovery but it isn't full recovery you're
getting just because you feel good.

2) You might be physiologically advantaged for faster than normal recovery
but that's a pretty rare trait.

> I don't think I am capable of doing enough work in a workout to
> not be able to recover in one day.

Wow. Then you need to train much harder on your hard days.

> If I were stronger (like a pro), I could do more, and then maybe one
> day wouldn't be enough.

Pros recover FASTER than lower level people because they've trained their
bodies up to that level and have a better idea of testing and recovery.

 

[[email protected]]

On May 2, 11:10 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 2, 6:39 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On May 2, 8:44 am, "[email protected]"
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > It's just that even on days when I ride very hard for example trying
> > > to keep up with some faster buddies on a fast team time-trial type
> > > ride, the next day I am always fresh.
>
> > Perhaps that is good training for sustained power, I don't know.
>
> The rides I have in mind are with 5 riders, 1.5 hours or so with
> probably average HR at 85-90%. I am wasted when these rides are over.
>
>
>
> > I doubt it does as much for mass start type races as more interval
> > type training does.
>
> That may very well be. And as that is where I get dropped, that's why
> I decided to add some intervals.
>
> > > I don't think I am capable of
> > > doing enough work in a workout to not be able to recover in one day.
> > > If I were stronger (like a pro), I could do more, and then maybe one
> > > day wouldn't be enough.
>
> > IF YOUR LEG MUSCLES ARE NOT CHRONICALLY SORE EXCEPT FOR BACKOFF ON
> > RACE WEEKS, THEN YOU NEED TO TRAIN HARDER!!!!  IF YOU ARE RECOVERING
> > IN ONE DAY, YOU ARE NOT TRAINING HARD ENOUGH!!!!
>
> > How is that for screeching?
>
> Maybe I recover well, maybe my cardio is way behind my muscular
> development, but even after monster efforts, 24h is more than enough
> to feel fresh. I must be lazier than I thought...

Not necessarily lazier, but it depends what you mean
by monster effort. Does the monster effort mean
riding with 5 other people for 1.5 hours steadily as hard
as you guys can maintain for that time (which is what I
assume your team TT tries to do). Then yeah you are
going to be wasted at the end, but you will not be reaching
the intensity level that short hard efforts require,
like jumps in a race or the killer 5-10 min climbs that
force a selection. In order to get better at those things,
you need to do them. Specificity, specificity, specificity,
RBR Science Officer Coggan would say. If you do
enough of these, your legs will burn the next day.

For a short (in clock time) example, going out and riding
for an hour where you do 4 sets of 10 minutes hard, 5 min
recovery. I am the worst person at disciplined intervals, but
I used to do this by doing hill repeats. Obviously, for that
setup to work, you need a 10 min hill, but if you have
discipline you can do it on the flat.

Ben

 

[[email protected]]

On May 3, 6:31 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On May 2, 11:10 am, "[email protected]"
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On May 2, 6:39 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On May 2, 8:44 am, "[email protected]"
>
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > It's just that even on days when I ride very hard for example trying
> > > > to keep up with some faster buddies on a fast team time-trial type
> > > > ride, the next day I am always fresh.
>
> > > Perhaps that is good training for sustained power, I don't know.
>
> > The rides I have in mind are with 5 riders, 1.5 hours or so with
> > probably average HR at 85-90%. I am wasted when these rides are over.
>
> > > I doubt it does as much for mass start type races as more interval
> > > type training does.
>
> > That may very well be. And as that is where I get dropped, that's why
> > I decided to add some intervals.
>
> > > > I don't think I am capable of
> > > > doing enough work in a workout to not be able to recover in one day.
> > > > If I were stronger (like a pro), I could do more, and then maybe one
> > > > day wouldn't be enough.
>
> > > IF YOUR LEG MUSCLES ARE NOT CHRONICALLY SORE EXCEPT FOR BACKOFF ON
> > > RACE WEEKS, THEN YOU NEED TO TRAIN HARDER!!!!  IF YOU ARE RECOVERING
> > > IN ONE DAY, YOU ARE NOT TRAINING HARD ENOUGH!!!!
>
> > > How is that for screeching?
>
> > Maybe I recover well, maybe my cardio is way behind my muscular
> > development, but even after monster efforts, 24h is more than enough
> > to feel fresh. I must be lazier than I thought...
>
> Not necessarily lazier, but it depends what you mean
> by monster effort.  Does the monster effort mean
> riding with 5 other people for 1.5 hours steadily as hard
> as you guys can maintain for that time (which is what I
> assume your team TT tries to do).  Then yeah you are
> going to be wasted at the end, but you will not be reaching
> the intensity level that short hard efforts require,

Yes, full steam rotating echelon for a 70km loop. They are stronger,
and slow the pace on climbs for me. I get way more of a workout than
they do. But yes, the intensity level does not spike super high. No
sprints, limited time at max HR for example.


> like jumps in a race or the killer 5-10 min climbs that
> force a selection.  In order to get better at those things,
> you need to do them.  Specificity, specificity, specificity,
> RBR Science Officer Coggan would say.  If you do
> enough of these, your legs will burn the next day.

I think there are two ways to look at intensity. One is to mimic race
conditions and to become accustomed to how one deals with it, which
also builds strength, the otehr is to focus on optimizing building
strength, but not necessarily in a way that gives direct experience
applicable to racing. For example my long 5 minute rests. No race
allows 5 minute rests, but by using them I can (perhaps) get more work
done in a training session. And quantitly of work done is what really
matters in terms of building capacity. Building toughness and
experience to be able to put that capacity to good use is a different
story.

>
> For a short (in clock time) example, going out and riding
> for an hour where you do 4 sets of 10 minutes hard, 5 min
> recovery.  I am the worst person at disciplined intervals, but
> I used to do this by doing hill repeats.  Obviously, for that
> setup to work, you need a 10 min hill, but if you have
> discipline you can do it  on the flat.

No 10 minute hill nearby. I like to do my intense efforts on days when
I have limited time, so I need to stay near home. Hills are a drive or
long ride away. As I am trying to get my hidden Roulleur to blossom,
I'll stick to my local rolling terrain.

Joseph

 

[[email protected]]

On May 2, 2:06 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 30, 9:44 am, "[email protected]"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > So my goal has been to find a regimen that is fun, not taxing in terms of
> > mental hassle, and which makes me stronger.
>
> I'm like that too.  Here are some things I do to keep training from
> getting too taxing for me, psychologically:
>
> - Do the local mid-week training race.  For us, this is Tues night.
> For me this is the best way to get intensity and have it be fun.
> Don't have one in your area?  Could you or your club start one?  We
> have one club in the area that does club races also, and they open it
> to non-members.

Check. Every other Tuesday is a race. The other Tuesdays is club
training in echelon at speed. Not as intense as racing, but still
pretty good.

> - Ride hills once a week.  I don't like doing strict "repeats" (go up
> and down the same hill).  But I have no problem doing a ride that
> packs a bunch of different climbs in a short distance (I'm talking
> anywhere from 4-8 minute efforts ... we don't have big climbs here).

I should do this. The hilly terrain is a little bit away, so I have
been lazy about riding/driving there to take advantage of the hills.


> - Get a TT bike and add TT training.  There's something about being on
> the TT bike that makes you want to go fast.  For some reason, I don't
> have a problem mentally getting on the TT bike and doing 2x20 min. or
> 6x5 min, etc.  Or maybe it's thinking, I got this bike so I better use
> it.  Or maybe just being on a different bike. Also gives you the
> opportunity to do any of the local low-key TT events that seem to pop
> up.

Check. I still haven't ridden it much as I am sorting wheel and
position issues, but I'm sure I will react in the same way as you,
needing to go fast when on it. We have some local TT's, but they are
unfortunaelty not very low-key. I'm not embarrassed about finishing
last, but it would be nice if more people thought the same.

> - Go ride on one of your local race courses.  If I go ride on a course
> we use for races, I seem to want to ride it like a race.  The other
> night for example I rode from home to a 4 mile hilly loop we race on,
> then did some loops on that course at 'race pace'.

That's a good idea. I think I'll try to get a few guys together for
that.

> - and then: race as much as possible.  when possible double up with
> masters and seniors races on the same day.

Everyone races togther here. Last race I was in the podium spanned 33
years!

Joseph

 

[Donald Munro]

[email protected] wrote:
> For a short (in clock time) example, going out and riding for an hour
> where you do 4 sets of 10 minutes hard, 5 min recovery. I am the worst
> person at disciplined intervals, but I used to do this by doing hill
> repeats. Obviously, for that setup to work, you need a 10 min hill, but
> if you have discipline you can do it on the flat.

A powermeter is very useful here as a way to maintain the target effort,
rather than starting out too hard and ending up well below the target
power/effort level for the whole interval.

 

[[email protected]]

On May 3, 10:43 am, Donald Munro <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > For a short (in clock time) example, going out and riding for an hour
> > where you do 4 sets of 10 minutes hard, 5 min recovery.  I am the worst
> > person at disciplined intervals, but I used to do this by doing hill
> > repeats.  Obviously, for that setup to work, you need a 10 min hill, but
> > if you have discipline you can do it  on the flat.
>
> A powermeter is very useful here as a way to maintain the target effort,
> rather than starting out too hard and ending up well below the target
> power/effort level for the whole interval.

That's probably what I do. To try to maintain effort I concentrate on
staying on top of the gear, and try to avoid having to shift, aside
from making allowances for changing terrain. For these intervals I
have been doing, acceleration has not been part of the deal, so I can
try to avoid overdoing it in the beginning with gradual speed
increase, trying to maintain constant power as much as possible.

Joseph

 

[Donald Munro]

[email protected] wrote:
>> > For a short (in clock time) example, going out and riding for an hour
>> > where you do 4 sets of 10 minutes hard, 5 min recovery.  I am the
>> > worst person at disciplined intervals, but I used to do this by doing
>> > hill repeats.  Obviously, for that setup to work, you need a 10 min
>> > hill, but if you have discipline you can do it  on the flat.

Donald Munro <[email protected]> wrote:
>> A powermeter is very useful here as a way to maintain the target effort,
>> rather than starting out too hard and ending up well below the target
>> power/effort level for the whole interval.

[email protected] wrote:
> That's probably what I do. To try to maintain effort I concentrate on
> staying on top of the gear, and try to avoid having to shift, aside from
> making allowances for changing terrain. For these intervals I have been
> doing, acceleration has not been part of the deal, so I can try to avoid
> overdoing it in the beginning with gradual speed increase, trying to
> maintain constant power as much as possible.

Judging constant power without a powermeter is a lot harder than you
might think. While I'm doing intervals I hate the damned thing since
it never lies to make me feel better. By the time you get to say 4 of 6
I feel sure its deliberately underreporting my power to make me feel
bad (blood reduction to the brain causes all kinds of weird paranoic
delusions). By comparison the HRM data on the same set of intervals
reports the same max even when the power output is declining.

I have to admit I have become a bit addicted to the powermeter as I
feel a bit lost doing intervals without it, but if I had to choose
between buying a powermeter and some fancy carbon wheels say, I'd
always rather have the powermeter.

 

[Robert Chung]

On May 3, 2:24 am, Donald Munro <[email protected]> wrote:

> Judging constant power without a powermeter is a lot harder than you
> might think. While I'm doing intervals I hate the damned thing since
> it never lies to make me feel better. By the time you get to say 4 of 6
> I feel sure its deliberately underreporting my power to make me feel
> bad (blood reduction to the brain causes all kinds of weird paranoic
> delusions). By comparison the HRM data on the same set of intervals
> reports the same max even when the power output is declining.
>
> I have to admit I have become a bit addicted to the powermeter as I
> feel a bit lost doing intervals without it, but if I had to choose
> between buying a powermeter and some fancy carbon wheels say, I'd
> always rather have the powermeter.

"Best thing about a PM? It doesn't lie. Worst thing about a PM? It
doesn't lie."
--Benjamin Franklin

 

[[email protected]]

On May 3, 11:24 am, Donald Munro <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> >> > For a short (in clock time) example, going out and riding for an hour
> >> > where you do 4 sets of 10 minutes hard, 5 min recovery.  I am the
> >> > worst person at disciplined intervals, but I used to do this by doing
> >> > hill repeats.  Obviously, for that setup to work, you need a 10 min
> >> > hill, but if you have discipline you can do it  on the flat.
> Donald Munro <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> A powermeter is very useful here as a way to maintain the target effort,
> >> rather than starting out too hard and ending up well below the target
> >> power/effort level for the whole interval.
> [email protected] wrote:
> > That's probably what I do. To try to maintain effort I concentrate on
> > staying on top of the gear, and try to avoid having to shift, aside from
> > making allowances for changing terrain. For these intervals I have been
> > doing, acceleration has not been part of the deal, so I can try to avoid
> > overdoing it in the beginning with gradual speed increase, trying to
> > maintain constant power as much as possible.
>
> Judging constant power without a powermeter is a lot harder than you
> might think. While I'm doing intervals I hate the damned thing since
> it never lies to make me feel better. By the time you get to say 4 of 6
> I feel sure its deliberately underreporting my power to make me feel
> bad (blood reduction to the brain causes all kinds of weird paranoic
> delusions). By comparison the HRM data on the same set of intervals
> reports the same max even when the power output is declining.
>
> I have to admit I have become a bit addicted to the powermeter as I
> feel a bit lost doing intervals without it, but if I had to choose
> between buying a powermeter and some fancy carbon wheels say, I'd
> always rather have the powermeter.

I'm under no illusions that I am actually able to maintain a given
power level. I just figure if I try hard and do a lot of work, it has
to help despite being sub optimal.

If I could quantify with some degree of accuracy just how much a PM
could help me, it would make it easier for me to justify the dough. I
know a PM would help me train in a way that would make me faster, but
would it be enough to make a real difference? Is going from 20 minutes
off the back to 10 minutes off the back worth it?

Joseph