compact geometry hell



J

Jesse Thompson

Guest
Derk <[email protected]> wrote:

> Jesse Thompson wrote:
>
> > said, and you have dodged over and over again, people with short legs and long torsos (like me!)
> > can fit a standard compact frame but not a "classic" square frame.
> I have noticed this too: especially italian frames, but also Look frames are very short. a 58 c-c
> frame typically has 57.5cm top tube, which forces me to mount a 13cm stem. This makes a bike
> "nervous".
>
> I saw that a L compact has a 58cm top tube. Still .5cm less than my custom built frames, but it
> fits me better.
>
> Greets, Derk

No need to limit yourself to brands that size in letters.

Here is a Cervelo with a 59.2 / 73deg top tube:

http://www.cervelo.com/bikes/SLTeam.html#Geometry

Specialized makes a "62" with a 60.cm/72.5deg:

http://www.specialized.com/SBCGeometryPopup.jsp?sizechart=04sworks2&bike model=04%20S-
Works%20E5%20Road%20Frameset

K2 makes a 60cm/72deg frame:

http://www.k2bike.com/04products/road/mod5.asp

There are some really long bikes out there these days, things are much better for people
like us now...

Jesse
 
Q

Qui Si Parla Ca

Guest
bcdi-<< However, I do think that there are some traditionalists on this thread that merely want to
dismiss compact frames under the assumption that its all a smoke & mirrors marketing thing. Usually,
that's the last line of defense for an old fart to claim that new technology is all marketing.
>><BR><BR>

clue-less.............

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
D

David Damerell

Guest
Jesse Thompson <[email protected]_gwi.net> wrote:
>There IS a problem being solved with a compact frame. As Mike S has said, and you have dodged over
>and over again, people with short legs and long torsos (like me!) can fit a standard compact frame
>but not a "classic" square frame.

That certainly comes as news to me; I just use a stem with plenty of forward extension.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Distortion Field!
 
J

Jay Beattie

Guest
"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:JVg*[email protected]...
> Jesse Thompson <[email protected]_gwi.net> wrote:
> >There IS a problem being solved with a compact frame. As Mike
S has
> >said, and you have dodged over and over again, people with
short legs
> >and long torsos (like me!) can fit a standard compact frame
but not a
> >"classic" square frame.
>
> That certainly comes as news to me; I just use a stem with
plenty of
> forward extension.

The compact frame is more of a problem for tall riders who get stuck with a short frame, a long seat
post and a long threadless steerer and a long stem. The whole bike turns into a creaking extension
ladder. And depending on the effective length of the TT, a tall rider ends up with his weight too
far over the front wheel, which gives the bike poor handling, IMO. -- Jay Beattie.
 
C

Carl Fogel

Guest
"SMMB" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Carl Fogel" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de :
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
> > Dear Tom,
> >
> > My MawlRat bicycle needs no over-elaborate Teutonic machinery, with onomatopoeic names:
> >
> > "Schlumpf! goes the front transmission, collapsing and causing the rear hub to perform a
> > disastrous rohl-off."
> >
>
> I'd be curious to know how badly or how well the initial preparation was. What did you have to
> adjust, etc., to feel secure before really taking it out.

Dear Sandy,

My initial preparation began with calling WatMarl and asking the lady who answered for the bicycle
department, which flummoxed her. She was relieved when I suggested trying the sporting goods
department, whose stalwart clerk assured me that there were $50 15-speed bicycles for sale and
seemed puzzled when I asked how long it would take to put one together--ya just roll 'em up to the
checkout stand, they're already assembled.

At the store, I found three fine examples of China's answer to the Trek OCLV posing shyly on the
upper rack. Only one had a manual attached, so I heaved it down, rolled it around, and found that
the front tire went bump, possibly because the soggy chunk of thick rubber had been resting and
deforming against the rack for too long.

Rejecting it like a beauty queen with a pimple on the end of her nose, I stuck a pitchfork into the
next bike and hoisted it down from the upper reaches of the barn. This one's seat was noticeably
dusty, indicating an even longer sojourn on the display rack, but its tires so rolled smoothly that
I forgave it for still having one of those round plastic shipping tabs on one side of its rear axle
(I'm not sure whether "Consumer Reports" would call this a sample defect.)

At home, I introduced the gigantic Schrrader valve tires to Mr. Air Compressor and settled for 55
harsh psi, favoring ease of pedalling over the comfort offered by 40 psi. While stuffing air into
the tires, I gave the axle bolts a tug and found them nicely snugged down.

Then I got on it and rode off. The silly thing surprised me by how easily it pedalled, but it felt
much smaller than my touring bike, despite its impressive weight.

A sensible fellow would have promptly turned around, returned to the garage, and continued with pre-
ride preparations, but instead I rode two blocks over to where a narrow road descends a short, steep
s-bend gully to the Arkansas river and rolled down it to the river, hitting what felt like 30 mph, a
bit slower than the usual 35 mph on my touring bike.

I figured out how to work handle-bar mounted shifters, put it in low gear, trudged back up the hill,
and went back to pre-race preparation.

The chief problem was that the bike is really meant for boys about the size that I was at fourteen
(the range is 10-17 years of age). An allen key loosened the handlebar stem and let me raise it a
few inches. An adjustable wrench let me slide the seat further back on its rails. The seat post is
the old-fashioned necked-down kind, so I pulled it out and compared it to ancient seat posts in a
box of odds and ends. One of my old posts was the same size (from God knows what), but several
inches longer, so I popped it into the bike after slathering grease on it, raised it to the limit
mark, and put the seat back on it.

Then I played on it for half an hour under the streetlight. It's much easier to balance standing
still than my touring bike, but not as easy as my fondly remembered 5-speed Schwinn from 1968,
partly because I'm old and out of practice and partly because of the narrow little handlebars.

While balancing, I noticed that the raised stem seemed to flex a bit when I strained on it. I expect
that Chalo Colina notices structural flex like this if he presses the buttons on his speedometer
carelessly.

Adding the speedometer was the biggest chore. I used a spare that I keep ready to replace the
speedometer on my touring bike (they cost about $13 and die every few years). The elephantine front
forks (think of a pair of tusks) required the biggest zip ties that I had handy, crude padding, and
mounting the sensor magnet on the inside of the spoke-crossing, next to the hub.

Propping it upside down on a pair of 2x4's, I admired its wheels. The rims are much narrower than
the tires. Using a KMart spoke wrench, I pretended to true the rims, soothing them with half-
remembered passages from "The Bicycle Wheel." There was perhaps an eighth of an inch of side wobble
before I started, and arguably less when I finished. The trick is to concentrate on the rim and to
ignore the fearsome rubber treads, which project sideways and may well be staggered, much like the
teeth on a well-set saw.

While there's no actual data supporting the spoke squeezing stress-relief theory, I gave all the
spokes a friendly grope. None of them broke or seemed to resent the familiarity.

Given my size, I feel that the seat-post substitution is within UCI rules. The effect of my wheel-
truing is notoriously open to question. By evil coincidence, I'd broken my second drive-side spoke
of the year on my touring bike that afternoon, something that I didn't mention to my new bicycle.
(Doctors aren't required to mention that the previous patient died, so I feel reasonably ethical.)

The first real ride went fine yesterday. Unfortunately, it began to rain last night, turned to snow,
and is now a few inches deep, so I may not go riding today. On the other hand, I rode to school as a
boy on days like this, so I may sneak off, since the roads are just wet.

Carl Fogel
 
D

Dan Brussee

Guest
Proved the point there, didnt he? hehehe

On 05 Mar 2004 14:03:12 GMT, [email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) wrote:

>bcdi-<< However, I do think that there are some traditionalists on this thread that merely want to
>dismiss compact frames under the assumption that its all a smoke & mirrors marketing thing.
>Usually, that's the last line of defense for an old fart to claim that new technology is all
>marketing. >><BR><BR>
>
>clue-less.............
>
>Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
>(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
B

Brad Behm

Guest
Is compact geometry good for a riders with long legs and a short upper body?

"Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Do people really like these ugly compact geometry bikes? When you stop at the stoplight, how do
> you rest your leg on the top bar? We have some really long red lights around here. It's too
> bad, now I wouldn't even consider buying a LeMond bike.
>
> The only thing in favor of it, is that you give the bike to a relative or as a hand me down,
> because all you do is raise or lower the seat to fit them.
 
J

Jeff Starr

Guest
"Brad Behm" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Is compact geometry good for a riders with long legs and a
> short upper body?
>

Hi, what is good for the above mentioned "long legs and a
short upper body" is the WSD frames offered by some
manufacturers. Both Trek and LeMond offer WSD frames and I
would think that there are others. Life is Good! Jeff
 
R

Ryan Cousineau

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Jeff Starr) wrote:

> "Brad Behm" <[email protected]>
> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > Is compact geometry good for a riders with long legs and
> > a short upper body?
> >
>
> Hi, what is good for the above mentioned "long legs and a
> short upper body" is the WSD frames offered by some
> manufacturers. Both Trek and LeMond offer WSD frames and I
> would think that there are others. Life is Good! Jeff

Yeah, but you have to ride a girl's bike. You don't ride a
girl's bike, do you?

The Pinarello was previously owned by a girl (she put a
kickstand on it),
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected]
http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
D

David Reuteler

Guest
Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
> The Pinarello was previously owned by a girl (she put a
> kickstand on it),

hey, you've done much worse than put a kickstand on it. say,
why isn't the kickstand still on it?
--
david reuteler [email protected]
 
M

Mike Latondress

Guest
David Reuteler <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
>> The Pinarello was previously owned by a girl (she put a
>> kickstand on it),
>
> hey, you've done much worse than put a kickstand on it.
> say, why isn't the kickstand still on it?

You think it is not? He is the only guy in the Tues nite
crits with a kick-stand.
 
D

David Reuteler

Guest
Mike Latondresse <[email protected]_spamshaw.ca> wrote:
> You think it is not? He is the only guy in the Tues nite
> crits with a kick-stand.

ack .. my bad. naturally i just assumed ...

hey, there's really no way he can hold the presidency of
fab's fan club and ride crits with a kickstand is there?
purple forks, orange seats ok .. but this is beyond bad
aesthetics. this weighs down the bike and costs time.

it's time to stringly consider impeaching ryan.
--
david reuteler [email protected]
 
M

Mike Latondress

Guest
David Reuteler <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Mike Latondresse <[email protected]_spamshaw.ca> wrote:
>> You think it is not? He is the only guy in the Tues nite
>> crits with a kick-stand.
>
> ack .. my bad. naturally i just assumed ...
>
> hey, there's really no way he can hold the presidency of
> fab's fan club and ride crits with a kickstand is there?
> purple forks, orange seats ok .. but this is beyond bad
> aesthetics. this weighs down the bike and costs time.
>
> it's time to stringly consider impeaching ryan.

No, no, no, he is Fabs alter ego.
 
R

Ryan Cousineau

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Mike Latondresse <[email protected]_spamshaw.ca> wrote:

> David Reuteler <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> The Pinarello was previously owned by a girl (she put a
> >> kickstand on it),
> >
> > hey, you've done much worse than put a kickstand on it.
> > say, why isn't the kickstand still on it?
>
> You think it is not? He is the only guy in the Tues nite
> crits with a kick-stand.

Lies, all lies! None of my bikes have kick-stands.

Though the Pinarello does have a bell.

Which I used in last weekend's race,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected]
http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
D

David Reuteler

Guest
Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
> Lies, all lies! None of my bikes have kick-stands.

ok.

> Though the Pinarello does have a bell.
>
> Which I used in last weekend's race,

ok, that's funny. i can guess the context. was it well
received?
--
david reuteler [email protected]
 
R

Ryan Cousineau

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
David Reuteler <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Lies, all lies! None of my bikes have kick-stands.
>
> ok.
>
> > Though the Pinarello does have a bell.
> >
> > Which I used in last weekend's race,
>
> ok, that's funny. i can guess the context. was it well
> received?

In that particular race, I used it twice: once when we were
overtaking a pair of dropped B-group riders (so everyone
else is yelling "riders up!" as we pass, and I ring my bell.
Everyone laughs).

The other time was when I passed by my parents, who were out
watching me race.

-RjC.
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected]
http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
B

Brian S

Guest
[email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> pete-<< So, you're implying that there is something WRONG
> with compact bikes - other than aesthetics. Specifically,
> what is it? >><BR><BR>
>
> Nothing 'wrong' but no probelm is being solved, no
> question being answered by compact for the middle of the
> bell curve rider, size wise. BUT when reading their
> marketing drivel, they are lighter, stiffer, faster, more
> complient, > The $ savings are not passed onto the rider.
> If you want to reward a poorly performing industry, go
> ahead but I prefer to reward an industry that does it
> right, with the customer, not the board members, in mind.
>

> Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
> Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali
> costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Compact frames perform better than standard frames when my
extended carbon seat post eliminates more road buzz simply
because the distance from seat tube to saddle is longer. I
also appreciate the additional stand-over height. Because
form follows function, these are more important to me than
buying a classic frame with a horizontal TT. BTW, since the
bike industry is in trouble, isn't it a good thing to reduce
costs and boost margins? In a competitive industry, you can
bet that these costs ARE being passed through (if not in
price reductions then in a slowing of the pace at which
retail prices keep rising). Aren't these three good reasons
for a newbie (or a veteran)to get interested in biking,
select a compact frame, and keep interested in it?
 
S

Steven M. Schar

Guest
"Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Do people really like these ugly compact geometry
> bikes?

It's not what people like that's important. It's that the
compact frames save the manufacturer money. If every mass
market manufacturer has only compact frames, then they've
essentially forced you to either buy a compact frame, or
move up-market to someone like Rivendell, or go to customs.
 
D

David Reuteler

Guest
Steven M. Scharf <[email protected]> wrote:
> It's not what people like that's important. It's that the
> compact frames save the manufacturer money. If every mass
> market manufacturer has only compact frames, then they've
> essentially forced you to either buy a compact frame, or
> move up-market to someone like Rivendell, or go to
> customs.

errr, of course it's about what people like. if enuf people
don't like compact frames enuf to pay some extra (most
likely small) amount someone will step in to fill the niche.
and that someone need not be rivendell or any other $$$
custom manufacturer. they're not saving that *MUCH* money by
selling compact frames.

but if no one cares .. then no one cares.

manufacturers can't force choices down your throat. imagine,
ohh, say, ford only selling one model with one paint job.
that may be cheaper but only lasts as long as, say, buick
isn't around.
--
david reuteler [email protected]
 
R

Robert Brown

Guest
David Reuteler wrote:

---8<----cut

>
> manufacturers can't force choices down your throat.
> imagine, ohh, say, ford only selling one model with one
> paint job. that may be cheaper but only lasts as long as,
> say, buick isn't around.

(David, pls excuse me for diverting your thread a bit ...)

Maybe someone can help me understand one of the rumoured
advantages with compact geometry frames - that they allow
retailers to stock a lesser number of frame sizes, thus
reducing inventory, capital bound up in stock, etc.

This I do not understand.

If we move a rider from a "regular" frame to a compact
frame, preserving seat height, handlebar height, seat post
angle, and top tube length, then assuming that same safety
and aesthetic constraints apply re distance of handlebar
stem from headset (1 - 3cm), then the only practical
difference for the compact frame case is that a longer seat
post is used.

If we now put, say, a significantly shorter rider on this
same bike, then this frame will not fit him/her. Sure, we
can move the seat post down but we still need to move the
handlebars down correspondingly, and this is not any more
possible on a compact frame compared with a regular frame.

So, even in the compact frame case, we have to find a
smaller frame for our rider.

This would mean that retailers still have to stock just as
many frames as before, right?

What gives?

/Robert