Compact vs Std Frame

[Bigbananabike]

I sold a compact frame I had to a friend last year. He set it up similarly to his current non compact road frame. He's an A grade(your Cat 1) rider here. He says it "feel" faster too and "seems" to be faster against his training partners etc on it.

Mostly I got it to build up a single speed(it was cheap secondhand) but looking at the frame angles I thought 'No' - it reaffirmed for me that I hate the look of compacts .
I especially think they look stupid on the racks of the back of cars - skued at an angle.
I also wouldn't like to own a bike which had just been pumped out of somewhere like and including the Giant factory in the Far East - which it seems to me a lot of store bought compacts are.
I have a semi compact bike - which I think still looks as good as a trad frame set up.

 

[artemidorus]

I also wouldn't like to own a bike which had just been pumped out of somewhere like and including the Giant factory in the Far East - which it seems to me a lot of store bought compacts are.

[irony]Yes, we all know the abysmal depths of quality control plumbed by Giant.[/irony]

 

[bobbyOCR]

Banana, I thought you owned a Felt?

Chances are they come out of the Merida factory, or the Giant factory.

 

[dhk2]

[irony]Yes, we all know the abysmal depths of quality control plumbed by Giant.[/irony]

You mean the worlds' largest maker of bikes? Yeah, I bet they use lots of automation and fancy computer measuring equipment in attempts to continually monitor quality; a poor excuse for hand-checking.

These guys in Taiwan with their multi-million dollar facilities will never compete with real hand craftsmanship, like on my 1973 Raleigh from the famed Carlisle Frameworks... that's some piece of quality work all right

 

[pistole]

These guys in Taiwan with their multi-million dollar facilities will never compete with real hand craftsmanship, like on my 1973 Raleigh from the famed Carlisle Frameworks... that's some piece of quality work all right

- I almost fell off my chair laughing at that.

- sorry.

- you need to read more about the bicycle industry.


.

 

[bobbyOCR]

You mean the worlds' largest maker of bikes? Yeah, I bet they use lots of automation and fancy computer measuring equipment in attempts to continually monitor quality; a poor excuse for hand-checking.

These guys in Taiwan with their multi-million dollar facilities will never compete with real hand craftsmanship, like on my 1973 Raleigh from the famed Carlisle Frameworks... that's some piece of quality work all right

First. The world's largest manufacturer of bikes and bike parts is Merida, believe it or not. Most companies have a product that comes somewhere out of their production facilities.

Second, quality controls in Taiwanese factories are some of the tightest tolerances in the business. Don't discount them.

Third, a lugged steel frame from 1973 isn't an accurate comparison to a modern Taiwanese manufacturing company. A small custom business will be able to produce high quality, hand-joined frames, in your case, steel, at a generally higher cost. In 1973, alloy and carbon frames weren't exactly in existance, at least, they were very very rare. But even so, a Taiwanese company will be able to produce monocoque carbon frames with high tolerances, a custom firm won't, end of story.
Don't try and compare 1973 custom made bikes to 2007 factory produced bikes.

 

[alienator]

First. The world's largest manufacturer of bikes and bike parts is Merida, believe it or not. Most companies have a product that comes somewhere out of their production facilities.

Second, quality controls in Taiwanese factories are some of the tightest tolerances in the business. Don't discount them.

Third, a lugged steel frame from 1973 isn't an accurate comparison to a modern Taiwanese manufacturing company. A small custom business will be able to produce high quality, hand-joined frames, in your case, steel, at a generally higher cost. In 1973, alloy and carbon frames weren't exactly in existance, at least, they were very very rare. But even so, a Taiwanese company will be able to produce monocoque carbon frames with high tolerances, a custom firm won't, end of story.
Don't try and compare 1973 custom made bikes to 2007 factory produced bikes.

You are aware, aren't you, that DHK2 was mocking his 1973 Raleigh, aren't you?

 

[bobbyOCR]

You are aware, aren't you, that DHK2 was mocking his 1973 Raleigh, aren't you?

My sarcasm detector is shot again. Bought it off Ebay with no warranty.

 

[alienator]

My sarcasm detector is shot again. Bought it off Ebay with no warranty.

Yeah, I used to have problems long ago with mine, so I decided at about age 10 to build one myself to my own specs. It's been runnin' like a charm since then......

 

[hd reynolds]

QC may seem atrocious on these factories but isnt QC now 100x better than 10-20 years ago?

 

[bobbyOCR]

QC may seem atrocious on these factories but isnt QC now 100x better than 10-20 years ago?

better than a lot of the Western world. They know how to put a frame together.

 

[hd reynolds]

better than a lot of the Western world. They know how to put a frame together.

Just as an example, in those days I remember some of my bikes needing some hanger alignment of some sorts to accept the wheel axle properly. Nowadays aluminum or CF frames are all spot on in that area.

 

[dhk2]

You are aware, aren't you, that DHK2 was mocking his 1973 Raleigh, aren't you?

Thanks alienator.....forgot Bobby is too young to remember the "fine hand craftsmanship" of the Raleigh frames in the 70's

Just to illustrate a bit, on my 1973 Gran Sport: the lugs looked like they were given a few licks with a ******* file and then painted. One of the chainstays looks like it was bent with a pliers to make it line up with the BB shell lug. The rear stays aren't "stuck on" the seattube quite right; you can see they are out of line if you look at the bike side-on. Good thing it that the heavy-weight CrMo could be cold-set, since they needed that after the brazing to line things up fairly straight.

The hand-brushed "Gran Sport" on the top tube is nicely done and a cool "old-world" feature. Obviously I've got a warm spot in my heart for this bike since I've bought it in 1973 for $250 and kept it all these years. Giant et al sure don't make them like this anymore

 

[alienator]

Thanks alienator.....forgot Bobby is too young to remember the "fine hand craftsmanship" of the Raleigh frames in the 70's

No problemo. Besides, old Raleighs weren't all bad. I had one that was good enough to earn me a new bike when it became a hood ornament on a car in '87.......

On a more evolved, beautifully finished note, I stopped in a newish LBS yesterday and held an XL Look 595 Origin frame in my hand. Ooooooeeeeerrrrr. Very splurt worthy! So splurt worthy that the owner is going to build it up so I can give it a test spin Tuesday or Wednesday. After buggering around with MS unExcel and bike geometries, it looks like an XL Look is just what my corpus needs. I'd also been looking at Parlees, but Parlee's off the shelf geometry doesn't mesh well with my bodily needs. Still, someone's gonna let me take a spin on his new Parlee Z4....so I can confirm its geometry is all wrong for me. That should be built up this week, too.

Ah, the future is becoming more clear, and that certainly is looking more and more like a black 595 Origin out there in the time not yet past.

 

[bobbyOCR]

Just hurry up and buy that 595, it is calling you.......

 

[alienator]

Just hurry up and buy that 595, it is calling you.......

It's funny you should say that. The new LBS called and said the 595 will be built up this afternoon and wanted to know iffin' I wanted to ride it today? Well, of course I do. So, we'll see how that goes. I am a bit curious as to whether or not I'll have to do the whole test ride standing up, since I don't expect nor want them to cut the post......

 

[alienator]

Alright, so I test rode a 595 today. First, the LBS was kind enough to cut the seatpost so that the saddle height was 15mm too high. Nice. And then they put on a 130mm stem. That's mostly the bad news. Pedaling seated was a, uhm, challenge at best. I spent most of the seated time sitting on the rivet, with my legs hitting full extension at the bottom of my stroke.

I didn't have my wheels, and they had Kyrium ES's on the bike, with Hutchinson tires inflated to my usual riding pressure. With that said, the bike was more compliant over bumpy stuff than my Moots. The difference was subtle but noticeable. I can't however say that the wheels and tires didn't have something to do with that.

I wanted to test the bike on a climb, so I found one of my local hills that has a 200 yard section of 25% grade. The Look did seem to climb a bit better than the Moots. Maybe more than a bit. It went up quite well.
Given the LBS setup issues, climbing seated was not an option.

Over all, the bike displayed a ride character that had none of the dead feeling that people complain about with CF bikes. If I'd been blindfolded, I wouldn't have been able to tell it apart from any metal bike.

A monsoon storm cut short the climbing--I didn't want to **** on the LBS by riding the bike in a torrential downpour--so while waiting in a dry spot for the rain to stop, I looked closely at the frame. The frame was an XL, and it is certainly the size for me. I think with the seat mast cut to the right height and a 120mm stem, I'd be right in my sweet spot on this frame. And as a bonus, I'd have quite a bit more room to alter my position than I do on my Moots.

So, I think buyin' a black Look 595 is definitely in my future. FWIW, the frame I rode today was white, and its finish was beyond reproach. In fact, the finish was about as perfect as a finish can get.

I'll be riding a Parlee Z4 in the next week or two to see how that works, but at least on paper, the Look is the better match. We'll see what the road says in a few weeks.

 

[bobbyOCR]

sounds good. Any weight goals?

25%, ouch. Even if only for 200m.

Steepest we got is around 15%, but that goes for 1.5km, with a short rest, then back to a steady 10% for another 1.5km.

 

[alienator]

sounds good. Any weight goals?

25%, ouch. Even if only for 200m.

Steepest we got is around 15%, but that goes for 1.5km, with a short rest, then back to a steady 10% for another 1.5km.

Ah.....I rechecked, and the grade was only 22%.

Weight goals? Hmmm. Sub 15 easy. With LEW wheels, 14 or less....I dunno. I'm not really gonna go weenie on it

 

[bobbyOCR]

I'm not really gonna go weenie on it

good plan. In the end, it will never be a weenie bike. You have to sacrifice and get an R3SL to do that.

Just build it up right, we don't want an Erez style frankenstein-bike-with-weenie-parts even-though-its-a-heavy-frame. The end product always looks **** and is never truly light.