Comparing numbers: Lowest TSB?

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by flapsupcleanup, Jun 11, 2007.

  1. flapsupcleanup

    flapsupcleanup New Member

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    Since many folks like to see how they measure up numberwise, this might be the one for us losers :D . How low have you had your TSB? Today, I'm at -44.8. I think I'll take a day off...
     
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  2. doctorSpoc

    doctorSpoc New Member

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    i had a -47 on April 23...
     
  3. mirek

    mirek New Member

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    I had -52.4 yesterday, after 3 days of hard training (total 747 TSS).
     
  4. rjjasick

    rjjasick New Member

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    Can you briefly fill me in on what these actually mean in Layman's terms? I've got 'The Book', but I'm still having issues understanding what they're telling me. I know and think I understand the CTL aspect of it, but the TSB and ATL, I'm still confused. I heard that TSB should be positive before a A race, do they mean a positive number, or change from a downward slope to an upwards slope? I'm still not sure where I should be resting. New to this whole specific training instead of just doing group rides.

    Thanks!
     
  5. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    The finishing touches weren't put on the Performance Manager until after the book was in press. Your best source of info on this idea (in addition to the blogs of, e.g., people like Alex) is therefore the Power411 section of the CyclingPeaks website:

    http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/

    In particular:

    http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/performancemanager.asp

    http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/howtoperformancemanager.asp

    http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/performancemanagerscience.asp

    http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/pmc_summit.pdf

    Also (and here's a teaser for those who are following along at home :D ), look for a report soon on some of the abstracts recently presented at the American College of Sports Medicine meetings...
     
  6. NomadVW

    NomadVW New Member

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    -50 for me. The numbers my coach is using for the first 8 weeks of my training (no start value for the PMC) would give me a -83 and some change in a couple spots, but it's just simply not accurate. Everything after that is close enough that 1 or 2 points doesn't matter.


    CTL/TSB with zero start value:
    [​IMG]
     
  7. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    minus 67 is the lowest i can see on my charts at a quick glance

    ric
     
  8. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    TSB numbers need context, in this case an accompanying CTL. Much harder to be big negative TSB when CTL is higher.

    I doubt I went past -30 TSB
     
  9. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    Yes, those items by Hunter and Andy are a good read. My disscussion of the Performance Manager are specifically in these posts:
    Hope it helps.

    http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2006/10/my-performance-manager-chart.html

    http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2006/11/planning-comeback-with-performance.html

    http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2007/02/second-coming-back.html

    http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2007/04/season-in-review.html
     
  10. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    As you know, TSB is also dependent upon the time constant used to calculate ATL and, to a much lesser extent, CTL. Specifically, you'll see much more dramatic swings in TSB when using a time constant of, say, 3 d, vs. the 7 d default value. Conversely, if you use a longer time constant of, say, 10 d (as I do), TSB will be less volatile.
     
  11. frenchyge

    frenchyge New Member

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    Which is why I think ATL is much more indicative of how far into the pain cave one has gone.
     
  12. LT Intolerant

    LT Intolerant New Member

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    Why/when would one change the time constant? Does the event you are training for (long endurance events vs short explosive power events for example) have any bearing on what the time constant should be? Personally I've always used the default.

    thx

    gene r
     
  13. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    "The default time constants of the Performance Manager, i.e., 42 d (6 wk) for CTL and 7 d (1 wk) for ATL were chosen as nominal values based on the scientific literature. As with the fitness component of the impulse-response model, the precise time constant used to calculate CTL in the Performance Manager has a limited impact, and although users may still wish to experiment with changing this value, there seems little to be gained from this approach. On the other hand, the calculations in the Performance Manager are sensitive to the time constant used to calculate ATL, and hence TSB (since TSB = CTL – ATL). Thus, part of the art of using the Performance Manager consists of learning what time constant for ATL provides the greatest correspondence between how an athlete actually feels and/or performs on a particular day vs. how they might be expected to feel or perform based on their CTL/ATL/TSB. Again, experience indicates that younger individuals, those with a relatively low training load, and/or those preparing for events that place a greater premium on sustained power output (e.g., longer time trials, 24 MTB races, long distance triathlons) may obtain better results using a somewhat shorter time constant than the default value, e.g., 4-5 d instead of 7 d. Conversely, masters-aged athletes, those with a relatively high training load, and/or those preparing for events that place a greater premium on non-sustainable power output (e.g., shorter time trials, criteriums) may obtain better results using a somewhat longer time constant than the default value, e.g., 10-12 d instead of 7 d. (Of course, since athletes preparing for longer events often – but not always – “carry” higher overall training loads, this tends to constrain the optimal time constant more than would otherwise be the case.)"

    (From point #7 under "Applying the Performance Manager Concept" of the article found here: http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/performancemanagerscience.asp)
     
  14. LT Intolerant

    LT Intolerant New Member

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    Thanks Andy. On a few occasions I've been surprised at my results (power output at certain intervals) given that my TSB was in negative numbers, in some cases TSB < -10. Maybe my time constant is the culprit? It would be interesting to go back and model different time constants to see if by changing the constant how I felt/performed aligned better with TSB.

    gene r
     
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