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15 April 2004
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Chupacabra
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  1. Larry Moran <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:
    Anon. said:

    Larry Moran wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    In terms of total amount of evolutionary change, random
    genetic drift is the main mechanism of evolution, by
    far. Almost all evolutionary biologists know this.

    Quoted message said:

    Doesn't that depend on how you measure evolutionary
    change? [...] At the sequence level, I would agree
    (well, until someone shows me some evidence to the
    contrary).

    Okay. So, if we take into account ALL evolutionary change
    then you agree that random genetic drift is the most
    important mechanism?

    The means of quantifying "all evolutionary change" here is
    not clear.

    State the metric used - and the question of whether genetic
    drift comes in at the #1 position will probably be clearer.
    --
    __________
    |im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.org [email hidden] Remove
    lock to reply.

  2. Phil Roberts, Jr. <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:
    Tim Tyler said:

    Phil Roberts, Jr. <[email hidden]> wrote or
    quoted:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What I am saying however, is that there is no reason to
    assume that everything produced by natural selection is
    adaptive and, in particular, flying airplanes into
    skyscrapers looks like one of those most precious of all
    scientific commodities, a full-fledged evolutionary
    anomaly. [...]

    "Evolution" never said organisms would not malfunction.

    Organisms malfunction all the time.

    Only a minority of them get to become long-term
    ancestors after all - most of them screw-up (in
    reproductive terms) somewhere along the line.

    We're not talking about an organism malfunctioning, Tim,
    but rather about A SPECIES "malfunctioning". [...]

    Mankind exhibits a number of "malfunctions". It's members
    have only recently adopted a vertical posture. Agression and
    xenophobia don't work well in a networked world. And so on.

    ...but these malfunctions are not serious - I figure a
    species malfunctioning *badly* would be represented by
    its extinction - or by failures to throw of new species
    or spread.

    Humanity is doing a reasonable job of spreading out. Human
    speciation doesn't seem to be immediately on the cards - but
    that's not a big deal.

    Overall, [censored] Sapiens as a species seems to be doing OK just
    at the moment. I reckon it has bright prospects in the role
    of founder.
    --
    __________
    |im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.org [email hidden] Remove
    lock to reply.

  3. Phil Roberts, Jr. <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:
    Tim Tyler said:

    Phil Roberts, Jr. <[email hidden]> wrote or
    quoted:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What would an organism have to do before you would
    consider its behavior anomalous?

    It would need to be clear that its actions are not
    benefitting its relatives.

    Ants and bees "commit suicide" - but they do it so
    their their reproductive relatives have a better chance
    in life.

    Suicide bombers are /probably/ malfunctioning organisms
    - but when their actions cause big shifts in global
    economies - and much in the way of money and resources
    to change hands - it's hard to be sure that their
    actions are not actually benefitting their relatives.

    We already had this debate, Tim. As I recall, your side
    lost. (see 'Adaptation and Natural Selection',
    Williams, 1966).

    ...which is largely a (faulty, but perhaps needed at the
    time) argument against the existence of group selection.

    Group selection is not the issue here - since I was
    proposing plain-and-simple kin selection as a possible
    explanation.
    --
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  4. Tim Tyler said:

    Phil Roberts, Jr. <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:


    What would an organism have to do before you would
    consider its behavior anomalous?

    It would need to be clear that its actions are not
    benefitting its relatives.

    Ants and bees "commit suicide" - but they do it so their
    their reproductive relatives have a better chance in life.

    Suicide bombers are /probably/ malfunctioning organisms -
    but when their actions cause big shifts in global
    economies - and much in the way of money and resources to
    change hands - it's hard to be sure that their actions are
    not actually benefitting their relatives.

    We already had this debate, Tim. As I recall, your side
    lost. (see 'Adaptation and Natural Selection',
    Williams, 1966).

    Quotes:

    Be warned that if you wish, as I do, to build a society
    in which individuals cooperate generously and
    unselfishly towards a common good, you can expect
    little help from biological nature. Let us try to TEACH
    generosity and altruism, because WE ARE BORN SELFISH.
    Let us understand what our selfish genes are upt to,
    because we may then at least have the chance to UPSET
    THEIR DESIGNS, SOMETHING THAT NO OTHER SPECIES HAS EVER
    ASPIRED TO. (Dawkins) [emphasis mine]

    The identification of individuals as the unit of
    selection is a central theme in Darwin's thought. This
    idea underliees his most radical claim: that evolution is
    purposeless and without inherent direction. ... Evolution
    does not recognize the 'good' of the ecosystem' or even
    the 'good of the species.' Any harmony or stability is
    only an indirect result of individuals relentlessly
    pursuing their own self-interest -- in modern parlance,
    getting more of their genes into future generations by
    greater reproductive success. Individuals are the unit of
    selection; the "struggle for existence" is a matter among
    individuals (Stephen Gould).

    _With very few exceptions_, the only parts of the theory
    of natural selection which have been supported by
    mathematical models admit no possiblity of the evolution
    of any characters which are on average to the
    disadvantage of the individuals possessing them. If
    natural selection followed the classical models
    exclusively, species would not show any behavior more
    positively social than the coming together of the

    Clearly from a gene's point of view it is worthwhile to
    deprive a large number of distant relatives in order to
    extract a small reproductive advantage. (W. D. Hamilton)

    Like Chicago gangsters, our genes have survived, in
    some cases for millions of years, in a highly
    competitive world. This entitles us to expect certain
    qualities in our genes. I shall argue that a
    predominent quality to be expected in a successful gene
    is ruthless selfishness. This gene selfishness will
    usually give rise to selfishness in individual
    behavior. However, as we shall see, there are special
    circumstances in which a gene can achieve its own
    selfish goals best by fostering a limited form of
    altruism. 'Special' and 'limited' are important words
    in the last sentence. Much as we might wish to believe
    otherwise, universal love and the welfare of the
    species as a whole are concepts which simply do not
    make evolutionary sense (Dawkins).

    Even with qualifications regarding the possibility of
    group selection, the portrait of the biologically based
    social personality that emerges is one of predominantly
    self-serving opportunism EVEN FOR THE MOST SOCIAL
    SPECIES, for all species in which there is genetic
    competition among the social co- operators, that is,
    where all members have the chance of parenthood (Donald
    Campbell).

    Humans and baboons have evolved by natural selection.
    If you look at the way natural selection works, it
    seems to follow that anything that has evolved by
    natural selection should be selfish. Therefore we must
    expect that when we go and look at the behaviour of
    baboons, humans, and all other living creatures, we
    shall find it to be selfish. If we find that our
    expectation is wrong, if we observe that human behavior
    is truly altruistic, then we shall be faced with
    something puzzling, SOMETHING THAT NEEDS EXPLAINING [my
    caps] (Richard Dawkins).

    Unlike [Lorentz and Montagu], I think 'nature red in
    tooth and claw' sums up our modern understanding of
    natural selection admirably. (Dawkins).

    This book (Wilson and Sober's 'Unto Others'๐Ÿ˜‰ should
    carry a health warning. Read critically, it will
    stimulate thought about important questions. Swallowed
    whole its effects would be disasterous (Maynard Smith).

    PR

  5. Tim Tyler said:

    Phil Roberts, Jr. <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:

    What I am saying however, is that there is no reason to
    assume that everything produced by natural selection is
    adaptive and, in particular, flying airplanes into
    skyscrapers looks like one of those most precious of all
    scientific commodities, a full-fledged evolutionary
    anomaly. [...]

    "Evolution" never said organisms would not malfunction.

    Organisms malfunction all the time.

    Only a minority of them get to become long-term ancestors
    after all - most of them screw-up (in reproductive terms)
    somewhere along the line.

    We're not talking about an organism malfunctioning, Tim, but
    rather about A SPECIES "malfunctioning". Why is their a
    species of naturally selected organism expending huge
    resources on its emotional well-being (maintiaing an
    adequate sense of self- worth) rather than reserving them
    exclusively for maintaining its physical well-being (DNA
    being the physical stuff that it
    is). If you want to understand the 9/11 terrorists, it seems
    to me that you have address this question sooner or
    later, don't you?

    "Terrorism is the result of poverty. Not a poverty of
    material things, but a poverty of dignity" (Egyptian
    philosopher).

    In case you're wondering, I already have an answer that I am
    championing.

    A Sketch of a Divergent Theory of Emotional
    Instability

    Objective: To account for self-worth related emotion (i.e.,
    needs for love, acceptance, moral integrity, recognition,
    achievement, purpose, meaning, etc.) and emotional disorder
    (e.g., depression, suicide, etc.) within the context of an
    evolutionary scenario; i.e., to synthesize natural science
    and the humanities; i.e., to answer the question: 'Why is
    there a species of naturally selected organism expending
    huge quantities of effort and energy on the
    survivalistically bizarre non-physical objective of
    maximizing self-worth?'

    "There is no value-judgment more important to man -- no
    factor more decisive in his psychological development
    and motivation -- than the estimate he passes on
    himself. This estimate is ordinarily experienced by
    him, not in the form of a conscious, verbalized
    judgment, but in the form of a feeling, a feeling that
    can be hard to isolate and identify because he
    experiences it constantly: it is part of every other
    feeling, it is involved in his every emotional
    response. ... it is the single most significant key to
    his behavior." (Nathaniel Branden).

    Observation: The species in which rationality is most
    developed is also the one in which individuals have the
    greatest difficulty in maintaining an adequate sense of self-
    worth, often going to extraordinary lengths in doing so
    (e.g., Evel Knievel, celibate monks, self endangering
    Greenpeacers, etc.).

    Hypothesis: Rationality is antagonistic to psycho
    centric stability (i.e., maintaining an adequate sense
    of self-worth).

    Explanation #1: In much the manner reasoning allows for the
    subordination

    to more global concerns (concern for the self as a
    whole), so too, these more global concerns and values
    can themselves become reevaluated and subordinated to
    other more global, more objective considerations. And if
    this is so, and assuming that emotional disorder
    emanates from a deficiency in self-worth resulting from
    precisely this sort of experientially based
    reevaluation, then it can reasonably be construed as a
    natural malfunction resulting from one's rational
    faculties functioning a tad too well.

    Explanation #2: Being the blind arational [censored] that she is,
    mother nature instills in all her creatures a sense of their
    own importance (or of the importance of their needs) that is
    rationally inordinate. And, as a species reaches a certain
    stage in its rational/ cultural/memetic development, its
    members increasingly come to question this inordinancy, and
    increasingly come to require reasons for maintaining it
    (needs for love, acceptance, moral integrity, purpose,
    meaning, status, wealth, etc.).

    "Special concern for one's own future would be selected
    by evolution: Animals without such concern would be more
    likely to die before passing on their genes. Such
    concern would remain, as a natural fact, even if we
    decided that it was not justified. By thinking hard
    about the arguments, we might be able briefly to stun
    this natural concern. But it would soon revive... The
    fact that we have this attitude cannot therefore be a
    reason for thinking it justified. Whether it is
    justified [i.e. rational] is an open question, waiting
    to be answered." (Derek Parfit)

    Normalcy and Disorder: Assuming this is correct, then some
    explanation for the relative "normalcy" of most individuals
    would seem necessary. This is accomplished simply by
    postulating different levels or degrees of consciousness.
    From this perspective, emotional disorder would then be
    construed as a valuative affliction resulting from an
    increase in semantic content in the engram indexed by the
    linguistic expression, "I am insignificant", which all
    persons of common sense "know" to be true, but which the
    "emotionally disturbed" have come to "realize", through
    abstract thought, devaluing experience, etc.

    Implications: So-called "free will" and the incessant
    activity presumed to emanate from it is simply the
    insatiable appetite we all have for self-significating
    experience which, in turn, is simply nature's way of
    attempting to counter the objectifying influences of our
    rational faculties. This also implies that the engine in the
    first "free-thinking" artifact is probably going to be a
    diesel (i.e., the cure produces more of the disease).

    "Another simile would be an atomic pile of less than
    critical size: an injected idea is to correspond to a
    neutron entering the pile from without. Each such
    neutron will cause a certain disturbance which
    eventually dies away. If, however, the size of the pile
    is sufficiently increased, the disturbance caused by
    such an incoming neutron will very likely go on and on
    increasing until the whole pile is destroyed. Is there a
    corresponding phenomenon for minds?" (A. M. Turing).

    Additional Implications: Since the explanation I have
    proposed amounts to the contention that nature's most
    rational species (presumably) is beginning to exhibit signs
    of transcending the formalism of nature's fixed objective
    (accomplished in man via intentional self concern, i.e., the
    prudence program) it can reasonably be construed as
    providing evidence and argumentation in support of Lucas
    (1961) and Penrose (1989, 1994). Not only does this imply
    that the aforementioned artifact probably won't be a
    computer, but it would also explain why a question such as
    "Can Human Irrationality Be Experimentally Demonstrated?"
    (Cohen, 1981) has led to controversy, in that it presupposes
    the possibility of a discrete (formalizable) answer to a
    question which can only be addressed in comparative (non-
    formalizable) terms (e.g. X is more rational than Y, the
    norm, etc.). Along these same lines, the theory can also be
    construed as an endorsement or metajustification for
    comparative approaches in epistemology (explanationism,
    plausiblism, etc.)

    "So even if mathematicians are superb cognizers of
    mathematical truth, and even if there is no algorithm,
    practical or otherwise, for cognizing mathematical
    truth, it does not follow that the power of
    mathematicians to cognize mathematical truth is not
    entirely explicable in terms of their brain's executing
    an algorithm. Not an algorithm for intuiting
    mathematical truth -- we can suppose that Penrose [via
    Godel] has proved that there could be no such thing.
    What would the algorithm be for, then? Most plausibly it
    would be an algorithm -- one of very many -- for trying
    to stay alive ... " (D. C. Dennett).

    Oops! Sorry! Wrong program, old bean. [me again, in response
    to Dennett's knee-jerk assumption that [censored] sapiens is
    running the same program as other species]

    "My ruling passion is the love of literary fame"
    (David Hume).

    "I have often felt as though I had inherited all the
    defiance and all the passions with which our ancestors
    defended their Temple and could gladly sacrifice my life
    for one great moment in history" (Sigmund Freud).

    "He, too [Ludwig Wittgenstein], suffered from
    depressions and for long periods considered killing
    himself because he considered his life worthless, but
    the stubbornness inherited from his father may have
    helped him to survive" (Hans Sluga).

    "The inquest [Alan Turing's] established that it was
    suicide. The evidence was perfunctory, not for any
    irregular reason, but because it was so transparently
    clear a case" (Andrew Hodges)

    "Its not about the mountain. Its about what the mountain
    tells you about yourself" (Edmund Hillary).

    REFERENCES

    1. Cohen, L. Jonathan, Can Human Irrationality be
    Experimentally Demonstrated?, The Behavioral and Brain
    Sciences, 1981, 4, 317-370.

    Reprinted in Anderson's, Minds and Machines, and
    engagingly explored in Hofstadter's Pulitzer prize
    winner, Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid.

    2. Penrose, Roger, The Emperor's New Mind, 1989; Shadows of
    the Mind, 1994.

    --

    Phil Roberts, Jr.

    Why We Turned Out Like Captain Kirk Instead of Mr. Spock:
    The Psychodynamics of Genetic Indeterminism
    fortunecity.comKirk.htm

  6. Phil Roberts said:
    Larry Moran said:

    On Wed, 19 May 2004 05:33:01 +0000 (UTC), Phil Roberts,

    Jr. said:


    I don't think Tim is disagreeing. Nor am I. What I am
    saying however, is that there is no reason to assume
    that everything produced by natural selection is
    adaptive .....

    This is nonsense. Any characteristic that is the end
    result of natural selection is adaptive, by definition.

    Perhaps you meant to say that not everything produced by
    *evolution* is adaptive?

    Perhaps. I guess I don't draw all that much of a
    distinction.

    R. A. Fisher did. He began his _The genetical theory of
    natural selection_ in 1930, which kicked off the
    Synthesis, with the words, "Natural Selection is not
    Evolution."

    ...
    --
    Dr John S. Wilkins, www.wilkins.id.au "I never meet anyone
    who is not perplexed what to do with their children" --
    Charles Darwin to Syms Covington, February 22, 1857

  7. On Thu, 20 May 2004 02:13:22 +0000 (UTC),

    Phil Roberts said:
    Larry Moran said:

    On Wed, 19 May 2004 05:33:01 +0000 (UTC), Phil Roberts,

    Jr. said:

    I don't think Tim is disagreeing. Nor am I. What I am
    saying however, is that there is no reason to assume
    that everything produced by natural selection is
    adaptive .....

    This is nonsense. Any characteristic that is the end
    result of natural selection is adaptive, by definition.

    Perhaps you meant to say that not everything produced by
    *evolution* is adaptive?

    Perhaps. I guess I don't draw all that much of a
    distinction.

    It's helpful to keep the distinction in mind. Lots of things
    have evolved even though they aren't adaptations.

    Quoted message said:

    The basis for my statement was my belief that in the
    course of selecting for intelligence (cognitive
    objectivity), which I presume IS adaptive, nature has
    "inadvertently" begun to pick up what is, for the most
    part, an "unwanted" (maladaptive) increase in valuative
    objectivity (increased concern for non-related others
    juxtaposed with an increased volatility in self-value).

    What's the problem? Intelligence may have been selected
    (adaptive) but not all of the many consequences of that
    intelligence (behavior) are necessarily adaptations by
    themselves. The overall benefit of being intelligent may
    have been a selective advantage but that doesn't mean that
    every single act of an intellignet human has to be an
    adaptation.

    Larry Moran

  8. John Wilkins said:

    Phil Roberts, Jr. <[email hidden]> wrote:

    R. A. Fisher did. He began his _The genetical theory of
    natural selection_ in 1930, which kicked off the
    Synthesis, with the words, "Natural Selection is not
    Evolution."

    Yes. But with the exception of Gould, most theorists
    consider natural selection to be the prime mover of
    evolution. So for me its always been a moot point.

    PR

  9. Phil Roberts said:
    John Wilkins said:

    Phil Roberts, Jr. <[email hidden]> wrote:

    R. A. Fisher did. He began his _The genetical theory of
    natural selection_ in 1930, which kicked off the
    Synthesis, with the words, "Natural Selection is not
    Evolution."

    Yes. But with the exception of Gould, most theorists
    consider natural selection to be the prime mover of
    evolution. So for me its always been a moot point.


    Not exactly. Most theorists think natural selection is the
    prime (sole?) mover of *adaptation*, but most theorists do
    not think that all evolution is adaptation. A very few do.

    The majority of those theorists I have read accept that
    genetic drift is a major player in evolution, in particular
    in speciation through allopatric isolation.

    Gould's views were extreme in some cases (although he tended
    to revert to the mean after a while), but on this point he
    is squarely with the majority. The only panadaptationists I
    know who are actually biologists are Mayr (somewhere he said
    all aspects of an organism are due solely to adaptation) and
    perhaps some of the ethologists (Dawkins, Ridley, some
    popular writers). Overall, though, Sewall Wright's lessons
    were learned early.

    --
    John S Wilkins PhD - www.wilkins.id.au a little emptier, a
    little spent as always by that quiver in the self,
    subjugated, yes, and obedient. -- Seamus Heaney

  10. On Thu, 20 May 2004 23:28:56 +0000 (UTC),

    Phil Roberts said:
    John Wilkins said:

    Phil Roberts, Jr. <[email hidden]> wrote:

    R. A. Fisher did. He began his _The genetical theory of
    natural selection_ in 1930, which kicked off the
    Synthesis, with the words, "Natural Selection is not
    Evolution."

    Yes. But with the exception of Gould, most theorists
    consider natural selection to be the prime mover of
    evolution. So for me its always been a moot point.

    In terms of total amount of evolutionary change, random
    genetic drift is the main mechanism of evolution, by far.
    Almost all evolutionary biologists know this.

    You may think of natrual selection as the "prime mover" of
    evolution but only if you have some specifc definition of
    "prime mover" in mind. It shouldn't be a "moot point" for
    you since you can make some serious mistakes if you expect
    everything to be an adaptation.

    Larry Moran

  11. Larry Moran said:

    On Thu, 20 May 2004 23:28:56 +0000 (UTC), Phil Roberts,

    Jr. said:
    John Wilkins said:

    Phil Roberts, Jr. <[email hidden]> wrote:

    R. A. Fisher did. He began his _The genetical theory of
    natural selection_ in 1930, which kicked off the
    Synthesis, with the words, "Natural Selection is not
    Evolution."

    Yes. But with the exception of Gould, most theorists
    consider natural selection to be the prime mover of
    evolution. So for me its always been a moot point.

    In terms of total amount of evolutionary change, random
    genetic drift is the main mechanism of evolution, by far.
    Almost all evolutionary biologists know this.


    Doesn't that depend on how you measure evolutionary change?
    At the sequence level, I would agree (well, until someone
    shows me some evidence to the contrary).

    At the phenotypic level, I would expect selection to be more
    important. But I've not seen any actual quantitative
    evidence, and it's not clear to me how to measure this. Over
    a short evolutionary time span a statistic comparing Qst and
    Fst could be used, I suppose, but I haven't seen any
    statistic (something else on my list of things to work on!).

    Bob

    --
    Bob O'Hara

    Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics
    P.O. Box 4 (Yliopistonkatu 5) FIN-00014 University of
    Helsinki Finland Telephone: +358-9-191 23743 Mobile:
    +358 50 599 0540 Fax: +358-9-191 22 779 WWW:
    rni.helsinki.fi~boh Journal of Negative
    Results - EEB: jnr-eeb.orgjnr-eeb.org

  12. John Wilkins said:

    Phil Roberts, Jr. <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Assume for the sake of argument that most ampliative
    inference is more a matter of COGNIZING a rule
    (i.e., order) than a matter of FOLLOWING a rule (e.g.,
    logic) and, along with it, the OPTION of following a
    rule or NOT once it has been cognized. If such were
    the case, then we might readily expect to find AN
    INVERSE CORRELATION between 'being rational' and
    'being determined'. Who knows? We might even
    eventually find a species that was beginning to
    question the most central natural mandate of all,
    'maximize your own self-interest', taking the form of
    an increased volatility in self-value, and an
    insatiable appetite for self-significating
    experience. In other words, we might find a species
    becoming less and less concerned with staying alive
    (e.g., the 9/11 terrorists) and more and more concerned
    with sustaining REASONS for staying alive (e.g.,
    needs for love, attention, religion, moral integrity,
    wealth, power, autonomy, justice, meaning purpose,
    etc.) precisely as can currently be observed in
    nature's most rational species. Would that be such a
    bad thing?

    Whew... let's take 'em one at a time.

    We have heuristics - rules of thumb, which we employ. They
    are always gained on the basis of past experience (for
    that matter, I am one of those deluded souls who thinks
    logic is itself the result of past learned experience).

    I agree with you about logic. One of the brightest among us
    (Aristotle for instance) managed to cognize the order in the
    manner in which we cognize order. But unlike my read of you
    so far, I believe who ever this individual was, he had
    intellectual acuities that went far beyond rote learning and
    trial and error, the so-called "darwinian" approach as you
    have deemed it, I believe.

    Quoted message said:


    Rational, in philosophical usage, means able to maximise
    coherence, warrant of belief, and conceptual and empirical
    adequacy, or some such.

    Rationality is widely construed as comprised of two domains,
    an epistemic/cognitive domain and a practical domain. The
    first domain might be construed as more or less
    corresponding with epistemology, although epistemics would
    probably be a better term for it. The latter domain is
    dominated by the means/end theory, in which rationality is
    construed as a matter of efficiency or expected utility, in
    its game theoretic formulations at least. But it is also
    important to note that the originators of game theory
    adopted this stance purely for the purposes of
    simplification. They were not attempting to make any sort of
    pronouncements about the rationality of ends. They just
    wanted to bypass this murkey issue, which was probably not
    such a bad idea:

    We feel that it is crucial that the social scientist
    recognize that game theory is not descriptive, but
    rather (conditionally) normative. It states neither how
    people do behave nor how they should behave in an
    absolute sense, but how they should behave if they wish
    to achieve certain ends (Luce and Raiffa, 1957).

    Quoted message said:

    This is only feasible ahead of time if we have some noetic
    projective power, which we don't.

    Not quite sure what you mean by this. We have a certain
    amount of predictive power, but that is apparently not what
    you have in mind. If, on the other hand, you arguing that
    'being rational' is a matter of 'being objective', and in
    spite of the fact that we might never know for sure when
    that might be the case, then I would quite agree. Indeed, I
    would argue that we can clear up lots of rationality
    paradoxes by adopting just such an assumption, that 'being
    rational' is simply a matter of 'being objective'. We can
    also clear up an evolutionary anomaly, but that's a litte
    far down the road.

    Quoted message said:

    So we can only tell if we are rational over long periods
    and in populations, just as we can only tell if a novel
    trait is fit the sameway.

    Yes. We are rational when we are objective, but its damn
    difficult to tell just exactly when that is and we can
    never be sure.

    Quoted message said:

    It's not a matter of maximising self-interest; since
    Marx's "false consciousness" we have understood that self-
    interest can be served often by self-delusion, and that
    "interest" can be interpreted as a political term, leaving
    scientific knowledge to be a political weathercock.

    Ahmen!

    Special concern for one's own future would be selected by
    evolution: Animals without such concern would be more
    likely to die before passing on their genes. Such concern
    would remain, as a natural fact, even if we decided that
    it was not justified. By thinking hard about the
    arguments, we might be able briefly to stun this natural
    concern. But it would soon revive... The fact that we
    have this attitude cannot therefore be a reason for
    thinking it justified. Whether it is justified [i.e.
    rational] is an open question, waiting to be answered
    (Derek Parfit, 'Reasons and Persons'๐Ÿ˜‰.

    Quoted message said:


    I prefer to think of scientific knowledge as post hoc
    tendencies to do the right thing empirically. As Quine
    once said, in _From a Logical Point of View_ (one of the
    first attempts to reconcile evolution and epistemology
    after the logical whatevertheyweres), "creatures
    inveterately wrong in their inductions have a pathetic,
    but praiseworthy, tendency to die before reproducing
    their kind".

    Objectivity in cognitive affairs is adaptive. Agreed. But
    objectivity in valuative affairs is not, since selfishness
    is usually going to be more efficient in perpetuating one's
    self and one's genetic blueprints.

    Human and baboon have evolved by natural selection. If
    you look at the way natural selection works, it seems to
    follow that anything that has evolved by natural
    selction should be selfish. Therefore we must expect
    when we go and look at the behavior of baboons, humans,
    and all other living creatures, we will find it to be
    selfish. If we find that our expectation is wrong, if we
    observe that human behavior is truly altruistic, then we
    will be faced with something puzzling, SOMETHING THAT
    NEEDS EXPLAINING. [my emphasis].

    Selfishness is the exact opposite of valuative objectivity
    (impartiality). So we have reason to assume that nature is
    selecting for objectivity/ rationality in cognitive affairs,
    and selecting AGAINST objectivity/rationality in valuative
    affairs (e.g., Dawkins has pointed out that there is a
    surprising amount of mitochondrial DNA from a single
    individual floating around Europe, its origins tracable to
    the time of Attila the Hum ๐Ÿ™‚ Or think of what Joseph Stalin
    was able to accomplish without the inefficiency of moral
    qualms constantly getting in the way)

    Quoted message said:

    Organisms adapted to conditions, and then they can leave
    those conditions or the conditions change around them. We
    have cognitive capabilities that once were highly
    adaptive, but we have changed our environment faster than
    our genes can track. So it is unsurprising that we do
    things that are not adaptive. But the ideas themselves
    still adapt. That's why I think cultural evolution is
    darwinian, even if not Darwinian.

    But the problem is not just in our ideas. More importantly,
    we have VALUES that look radically askew, at least from the
    perspective of the authors I have grown to respect (Price,
    Hamilton, Dawkins, Smith, Williams, Campbell, etc.).

    Even with qualifications regarding the possibility of
    group selection, the portrait of the biologically based
    social personality that emerges is one of predominantly
    self-serving opportunism EVEN FOR THE MOST SOCIAL
    SPECIES, for all species in which there is genetic
    competition among the social co- operators, that is,
    where all members have the chance of parenthood (Donald
    Campbell).

    Rather than "ruthlessly selfish", as predicted by our formal
    models, [censored] sapiens might more accurately be described as
    benevolently selfish and, even more bizarre, plagued with
    moral qualms that sometime lead to self-termination.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    But that IS Dawkins' idea, isn't it?

    The new [primeval] soup is the soup of human culture.
    We need a name for the new replicator, a noun that
    conveys the idea of a unit of cultural transmission,
    or a unit of imitation. 'Mimeme' comes from a suitable
    Greek root, but I want a monosyllable that sounds a
    bit like 'gene'. I hope my classicist friends will
    forgive me if I abbreviate mimeme to meme .

    But Dawkins only allowed that memes might be adaptive, as
    do a great many evolutionary epistemologists.

    I don't think so, John. Dawkins was the one who made the
    radical and I believe, totally honest remarks about just
    how selfish we "ought" (an epistemic ought, not a moral
    one) to be given our formal models of natural selection.
    That's why he went out of his way to provide an entire last
    chapter that was a DISCLAIMER for any assumption that you
    can apply these conclusions directly to human nature.
    Dawkins was contending that we currently have an
    explanatory void between the theory of natural selection
    (at least as it shows up in the formal models) and humam
    nature as it is currently observed. "Memetics" is just a
    placemarkder for whatever theory its going to take to fill
    this expalantory void.

    Quoted message said:

    It makes a lot of sense if you allow that they can be the
    result of nearly neutral drift, or adaptation to something
    other than "reality" (for example, adaptation to local
    cultural conditions).

    I think the 9/11 terrorst (and others) are like red flags
    being waved in front of natural scientists saying, "Quess
    what boys, its time to go back to the drawing boards". I
    also think the difference between a scientist and an
    academic or a technologist is precisely in his ability to
    notice when something is askew, possibly requiring a
    paradigm shift (e.g., the periphilons of Mercury come to
    mind). The fact that just about every contributor to this
    thread so far seems to be complacent about the 9/11
    terrorists, for example, is pretty sad. But then I just
    attended a conference in which I was the only one in the
    room who thought morality might not be adaptive, so I'm
    gettin' kinda used to it (with the exception of Matt
    Ridley, that is, but only in private conversation after
    the meeting).

    PR

    --

    Phil Roberts, Jr.

    Why We Turned Out Like Captain Kirk Instead of Mr. Spock:
    The Psychodynamics of Genetic Indeterminism
    fortunecity.comKirk.htm

  13. On Sat, 22 May 2004 02:26:53 +0000 (UTC),

    Anon. said:
    Larry Moran said:

    On Thu, 20 May 2004 23:28:56 +0000 (UTC), Phil Roberts,
    Jr. <[email hidden]> wrote:

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yes. But with the exception of Gould, most theorists
    consider natural selection to be the prime mover of
    evolution. So for me its always been a moot point.

    In terms of total amount of evolutionary change, random
    genetic drift is the main mechanism of evolution, by far.
    Almost all evolutionary biologists know this.

    Quoted message said:

    Doesn't that depend on how you measure evolutionary
    change?

    I suppose. One could presumably eliminate or ignore some
    kinds of evolutionary change in order to make natural
    selection seem more important.

    Quoted message said:

    At the sequence level, I would agree (well, until someone
    shows me some evidence to the contrary).

    Okay. So, if we take into account ALL evolutionary change
    then you agree that random genetic drift is the most
    important mechanism?

    Quoted message said:

    At the phenotypic level, I would expect selection to be
    more important.

    Far enough. I guess you could say something like ...

    "If we ignore evolutionary change at the genetic level and
    non-visible phenotypic changes at the molecular level and
    concentrate only on visible morphological phenotypic
    change in evolution, then it is widely believed than
    evolution is mostly due to natural selection."

    Larry Moran

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Doesn't that depend on how you measure evolutionary
    change? At the sequence level, I would agree (well, until
    someone shows me some evidence to the contrary).

    At the phenotypic level, I would expect selection to be
    more important. But I've not seen any actual quantitative
    evidence, and it's not clear to me how to measure this.
    Over a short evolutionary time span a statistic comparing
    Qst and Fst could be used, I suppose, but I haven't seen
    any statistic (something else on my list of things to
    work on!).

    Bob

  14. John Wilkins said:

    Phil Roberts, Jr. <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Yes. But with the exception of Gould, most theorists
    consider natural selection to be the prime mover of
    evolution. So for me its always been a moot point.

    Not exactly. Most theorists think natural selection is the
    prime (sole?) mover of *adaptation*, but most theorists do
    not think that all evolution is adaptation. A very few do.

    Since my whole point has been to suggest that our valuative
    objectivity is a maladaptive by-product of the evolution of
    rationality, its should be abundently clear that I am not
    one of those making this mistake. I would say if there is
    panadaptionism in our mides it is with those who are
    foolishly trying to maintain that the behavior of the 9/11
    terrorists is somehow adaptive. BTW, where you do you stand
    on this issue?

    BTW, there is an interesting paper on heuruistics from an
    evolutionary perspective. Here is the URL:

    Frugal Heuristics and Bounded Rationalty wz-wz-
    berlin.de/mp/conf/pastConfs/io03/papers/gigerenzer.pdf

    Another interesting paper on the limitations of game
    theoretic approaches to rationality can be found at:

    Limitations of rationality in social interactions.
    bbsonline.orgColman

    An excellent book on the subject is Binmore's 'Game Theory
    and the Social Contract'

    PR

  15. Larry Moran said:
    Anon. said:
    Larry Moran said:

    On Thu, 20 May 2004 23:28:56 +0000 (UTC), Phil Roberts,
    Jr. <[email hidden]> wrote:


    [snip]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >Yes. But with the exception of Gould, most theorists
    >consider natural selection to be the prime mover of
    >evolution. So for me its always been a moot point.

    In terms of total amount of evolutionary change, random
    genetic drift is the main mechanism of evolution, by far.
    Almost all evolutionary biologists know this.


    Quoted message said:

    Doesn't that depend on how you measure evolutionary
    change?

    I suppose. One could presumably eliminate or ignore some
    kinds of evolutionary change in order to make natural
    selection seem more important.

    Quoted message said:

    At the sequence level, I would agree (well, until someone
    shows me some evidence to the contrary).

    Okay. So, if we take into account ALL evolutionary change
    then you agree that random genetic drift is the most
    important mechanism?


    I think I can still use my same question: Doesn't that
    depend on how you measure evolutionary change? It's not
    clear to me that we have to measure it at the sequence
    level. If we measure it at the phenotpyic level, we get a
    different answer. Most paleontologists will probably take a
    phenotypic view, most geneticists will take a sequence point
    of view. Both are, I think, equally right, unless one
    defines organisms purely as their sequences.

    Bob

    --
    Bob O'Hara

    Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics
    P.O. Box 4 (Yliopistonkatu 5) FIN-00014 University of
    Helsinki Finland Telephone: +358-9-191 23743 Mobile:
    +358 50 599 0540 Fax: +358-9-191 22 779 WWW:
    rni.helsinki.fi~boh Journal of Negative
    Results - EEB: jnr-eeb.orgjnr-eeb.org

  16. John Edser said:


    JE:- Once the tribe becomes the best means of maximising
    Darwinian individual fitness for humans, nature can
    naturally select for a bizarre psychological adaptation:
    fight and die for your tribe if such an event is called
    upon because your own Darwinian fitness depends on it.

    Yes. In the most brilliant species ever, organisms are so
    incapable of surviving that, once excluded from a group,
    their odds of surviving are so minimal that nature has
    programmed them simply give up. Pretty funny stuff John.
    Have you considered gettin' into the standup comedian
    business? ๐Ÿ™‚

    Quoted message said:


    PR:- As such, I have attempted to explain some of the
    biological craziness we observe in man in terms of a
    simple postulated mechanism in which:

    'an increase in cognitive objectivity (knowledge,
    intelligence, wisdom, cognitive competence, etc.)
    "facilitates" an increase in valuative objectivity
    (impartiality)' IRRESPECTIVE OF ITS ADAPTIVENESS.

    JE:- The above does not make any sense to me. In the end,
    unless the total number of fertile forms per Darwinian
    selectee trends to an increase, all "the cognitive
    objectivity (knowledge, intelligence, wisdom, cognitive
    competence, etc)" moves to extinction.

    Its widely assumed that, man's ecological niche,
    intelligence/ rationality/knowledge, etc. has been highly
    adaptive. I'm merely supposing that it has been so adaptive
    that mother nature has been willing to "tolerate" a
    maladpative byproduct of this marvelous adaptation, i.e., an
    incrase in valuative objectivity. For example, only humans
    are smart enought to appreciate the fact that anothers
    assessment of one's self is likely to be more objective and,
    as such to have a significant impact on one's own assessment
    of one's worth. Of course, this becomes particularly acute
    when the judgement of another is that of

    cases (e.g., being jilted) the emotional effects can be
    devastating, downright incapacitating as a matter of fact.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    snip<

    PR:- 'Terrorism is the result of poverty. Not a poverty of
    material things, but a poverty of dignity' (Egyptian
    philosopher on recent TV documentary).

    JE:- Yes, but "a poverty of dignity" is not a scientific
    concept.

    I would say that if you are coming from a philosphy of
    science that makes it "unscientific" to take not of the
    central motivational factor in human thought and behavior
    that maybe you ought to think about getting a new philosphy
    of science. Roy Bhaskar's 'A Realistic Theory of Science'
    might be a good place to start, or Manicas and Secord,
    'Implication of the New Philosphy of Science' at

    geocities.comN T abs.htm

    The sort of scientism you are espousing is precisely why
    our understanding of human nature is still in the middle
    ages, IMHO:

    "Discussions of scientific method have tended to stress
    problems of testability, while neglecting...those
    aspects of the universe which in some sense are most
    central and significant for the area of reality with
    which the science deals." "It has been frequently
    assumed that only those events which in principle can
    be simultaneously observed by multiple observers ...
    are to be accepted as constituting a legitimate
    observational basis for science." "I am suggesting that
    the more general and, to me, acceptable, objective
    intended by the criterion of interobserver agreement
    would be...the criterion of repeatability....a more
    general trust in one's own experience" ...and the
    abandonment of "a corresponding uncritical acceptance
    of the significance of verbal reports." (Karl Zener -
    'The Signifance of Experience of the Individual for the
    Science of Psychology, Minnesota Studies in the
    Philosophy of Science)

    One of the characteristics of the majority of modern
    psychological theories, aside from the arbitrariness of
    so many of their claims, is their frequently ponderous
    _irrelevance_. The cause, both of the irrelevance and of
    the arbitrariness, is the evident belief of their
    exponents that one can have a science of human nature
    while consistently ignoring man's most significant and
    distinctive attributes. (Nathaniel Branden).

    PR

  17. Tim Tyler said:

    Larry Moran <[email hidden]> wrote
    or quoted:

    Quoted message said:
    Anon. said:

    Larry Moran wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > In terms of total amount of evolutionary change,
    > random genetic drift is the main mechanism of
    > evolution, by far. Almost all evolutionary biologists
    > know this.

    Quoted message said:

    Doesn't that depend on how you measure evolutionary
    change? [...] At the sequence level, I would agree
    (well, until someone shows me some evidence to the
    contrary).

    Okay. So, if we take into account ALL evolutionary change
    then you agree that random genetic drift is the most
    important mechanism?

    The means of quantifying "all evolutionary change" here is
    not clear.

    State the metric used - and the question of whether
    genetic drift comes in at the #1 position will probably be
    clearer.

    I mean the sum all evolutionary changes of any sort by
    whatever definitions are used by a large number of
    scientists.

    Did you have something else in mind that would shift random
    genetic drift into second place? Is there some definition of
    "all evolutionary change" that would cause you to question
    my statement? If so, perhaps you could share it with me?

    Larry Moran

  18. Quoted message said:

    JE:- Once the tribe becomes the best means of maximising
    Darwinian individual fitness for humans, nature can
    naturally select for a bizarre psychological adaptation:
    fight and die for your tribe if such an event is called
    upon because your own Darwinian fitness depends on it.

    PR:- Yes. In the most brilliant species ever, organisms are
    so incapable of surviving that, once excluded from a group,
    their odds of surviving are so minimal that nature has
    programmed them simply give up. Pretty funny stuff John.
    Have you considered gettin' into the standup comedian
    business? ๐Ÿ™‚

    JE:- Most Neo Darwinistic stand-ups provide a superior
    entertainment, e.g. Van Valen's Red Queen running hard to
    stand still while totally ignoring fitness mutualisation is
    hard to beat. However, Hamilton's two faced clown with the
    frowning face of organism fitness altruism and the smiling
    face of organism fitness mutualism, wins hands down. Nobody
    can know which face represents the real face of Hamilton's
    rule unless cmax is explicitly included within it or, at the
    very least, an attempt is made to include a Darwinian
    fitness time frame. Perhaps you prefer the additive gene
    inheritance stand-up routine with a human genome of only
    about 30,000 genes? It gets a million laughs... every
    time... Then again, PR's frowning clown who's catholic
    bleeding heart re: "self worth" is supposed to be a
    scientific concept is also, fun. Eustress and distress
    provide a scientific concept to explain in a testable way,
    similar events. Why would any body just ignore them?

    _________________________________________________
    Please note, I did not suggest that "their odds of
    surviving are so minimal that nature has programmed them
    simply give up". I just suggested that when the risk is
    small that you have to die for your tribe but the gains are
    enormous, then nature _can_ select to equip you with a
    psychological switch such that when it is switched on,
    provides the emotion necessary for you to die for your
    tribe. In this respect we differ little from a male preying
    mantis who has the programme for copulation half way down
    its body because the female may sometimes eat the males
    head during copulation. Nice.
    _________________________________________________

    Quoted message said:


    PR:- As such, I have attempted to explain some of the
    biological craziness we observe in man in terms of a
    simple postulated mechanism in which:

    'an increase in cognitive objectivity (knowledge,
    intelligence, wisdom, cognitive competence, etc.)
    "facilitates" an increase in valuative objectivity
    (impartiality)' IRRESPECTIVE OF ITS ADAPTIVENESS.

    Quoted message said:

    JE:- The above does not make any sense to me. In the end,
    unless the total number of fertile forms per Darwinian
    selectee trends to an increase, all "the cognitive
    objectivity (knowledge, intelligence, wisdom, cognitive
    competence, etc)" moves to extinction.

    PR:- Its widely assumed that, man's ecological niche,
    intelligence/ rationality/knowledge, etc. has been highly
    adaptive. I'm merely supposing that it has been so adaptive
    that mother nature has been willing to "tolerate" a
    maladpative byproduct of this marvelous adaptation, i.e., an
    incrase in valuative objectivity.

    JE:- You have to do your sums. Either "intelligence/
    rationality/knowledge" increases the total number Darwinian
    selectee's (fertile forms) you leave in one population or it
    does not. If it does not, then it cannot be selected.

    PR:- For example, only humans are smart enought to
    appreciate the fact that anothers assessment of one's self
    is likely to be more objective and, as such to have a
    significant impact on one's own assessment of one's worth.

    JE:- I do not agree that this is necessarily the case. Only
    testable assumptions can provide an objective measure.
    Science can prove that _everybody_ makes biased judgements,
    hence the need for double blind cross over testing.

    PR:- Of course, this becomes particularly acute when the
    judgement of another is that of

    cases (e.g., being jilted) the emotional effects can be
    devastating, downright incapacitating as a matter of fact.

    JE;- The emotion itself is not the most interesting part.
    What is interesting to an evolutionary theorist is how such
    emotions evolved. Nobody likes to be

    allows such a rejection to be felt (not understood), has to
    be adaptive. Stress seems to be the common factor. Stress
    governs emotion and emotion governs most of our behaviour.
    Cognition can fail to override emotion leading to self
    destruction.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    snip<

    Quoted message said:

    PR:- 'Terrorism is the result of poverty. Not a poverty of
    material things, but a poverty of dignity' (Egyptian
    philosopher on recent TV documentary).

    Quoted message said:

    JE:- Yes, but "a poverty of dignity" is not a scientific
    concept.

    PR:- I would say that if you are coming from a philosphy of
    science that makes it "unscientific" to take not of the
    central motivational factor in human thought and behavior
    that maybe you ought to think about getting a new philosphy
    of science.

    JE:- I "note" that the only testable "central motivational
    factor in human thought and behaviour" is any emotion that
    allows each selectee's total Darwinian fitness to trend to
    an increase within one population.

    PR:- Roy Bhaskar's 'A Realistic Theory of Science' might be
    a good place to start, or Manicas and Secord, 'Implication
    of the New Philosphy of Science' at

    geocities.comN T abs.htm

    The sort of scientism you are espousing is precisely why
    our understanding of human nature is still in the middle
    ages, IMHO:

    JE:- What remains middle aged in 2004 is the view that you
    can somehow, unhook Darwinian total fitness per selectee and
    still keep a rational evolutionary theory! You cannot. The
    sloppy thinking that passes for fitness within Neo Darwinian
    discussion is a scientific disgrace.

    PR:-

    "Discussions of scientific method have tended to stress
    problems of testability, while neglecting...those
    aspects of the universe which in some sense are most
    central and significant for the area of reality with
    which the science deals." "It has been frequently
    assumed that only those events which in principle can
    be simultaneously observed by multiple observers ...
    are to be accepted as constituting a legitimate
    observational basis for science." "I am suggesting that
    the more general and, to me, acceptable, objective
    intended by the criterion of interobserver agreement
    would be...the criterion of repeatability....a more
    general trust in one's own experience" ...and the
    abandonment of "a corresponding uncritical acceptance
    of the significance of verbal reports." (Karl Zener -
    'The Signifance of Experience of the Individual for the
    Science of Psychology, Minnesota Studies in the
    Philosophy of Science)

    JE:- Popper remains the only epistemologist prepared to bite
    the bullet: only by _independent_ testing can an idea be
    verified or refuted because people are _hopelessly_
    prejudiced by emotion. A scientific idea must be able to be
    tested by any _independent_ observer.

    PR:-

    One of the characteristics of the majority of modern
    psychological theories, aside from the arbitrariness of
    so many of their claims, is their frequently ponderous
    _irrelevance_. The cause, both of the irrelevance and of
    the arbitrariness, is the evident belief of their
    exponents that one can have a science of human nature
    while consistently ignoring man's most significant and
    distinctive attributes. (Nathaniel Branden).

    JE:- Nathaniel Branden and his mentor and lover, Ayn Rand,
    fell out over a process of refutation. Rand maintained the
    view that for humans, everything must be learned. Brandon
    presented evidence that this was not the case. Rand refused
    to admit that she was wrong. When Branden

    surprise surprise, Rand acted like a demented idiot due to
    the stress of it all, i.e. as a spurned older woman, Rand's
    much vaunted rationality was predictably, discarded. Brandon
    was only acting in his best biological interests but
    predictably, Rand did not like it.

    monogamy has ethically won over male polygamy. It is
    interesting to note that Rand was married when she took a
    very young Branden as her lover.

    Psychology is struggling to be a science because the
    numerous theories that exist within it cannot provide unique
    verifications, i.e. most of the ideas on the table are not
    sufficiently different to each other. If more than one
    theory can explain the same set of facts then no way exists
    to separate one theory from another. Indeed, no way exists
    to know that the ideas are just different to each other.

    If a theory cannot be refuted then no way exists for it to
    be tested. The only barrier we have against our Darwinian
    emotions and the havoc such emotion can reap within a modern
    super tribe is ANY testable theory. The hypothesis that we
    are driven to protect our own tribe for mutual, selfish
    reasons is testable but "a poverty of dignity" is not.
    Mutualised selfishness is NOT the same as selfishness
    because it excludes greed. Greed only provides a short term
    gain within a longer term, cost i.e. over one Darwinian time
    frame (the time taken by a Darwinian parent to complete a
    total of fertile forms reproduced in one population) an
    absolute _loss_ results from greed. A Mutualised gain cannot
    even be measured without a time frame. Neo Darwinian
    reasoning that is selective only for "the moment now" is
    just a hopeless "hippy" type of thinking.

    The only reason I can see as to why Neo Darwinians refuse to
    recognise the enormous error they have been making over the
    last 50 years (failing to be able to testably differentiate
    between organism fitness altruism and organism fitness
    mutualism because no Darwinian fitness time frame has ever
    been included) is status stress. Only science forces people
    to admit when they are wrong because all of us are
    programmed to evade refutation any way we can. Only in the
    sciences is it _impossible_ to evade refutation because
    ideas that cannot be refuted are not even in the running.
    Reverse this and "anything goes".

    Best Wishes,

    John Edser Independent Researcher

    PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

    [email hidden]

  19. Larry Moran <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Anon. said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Larry Moran wrote:
    > In terms of total amount of evolutionary change,
    > random genetic drift is the main mechanism of
    > evolution, by far. Almost all evolutionary biologists
    > know this.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    BOH:- Doesn't that depend on how you measure
    evolutionary change? [...] At the sequence level, I
    would agree (well, until someone shows me some evidence
    to the contrary).

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    LM:- Okay. So, if we take into account ALL evolutionary
    change then you agree that random genetic drift is the
    most important mechanism?

    Quoted message said:

    BOH:- The means of quantifying "all evolutionary change"
    here is not clear. State the metric used - and the
    question of whether genetic drift comes in at the #1
    position will probably be clearer.

    LM:- I mean the sum all evolutionary changes of any sort by
    whatever definitions are used by a large number of
    scientists.

    JE:- Pardon me butting in but..

    please state what would be EXCLUDED from such an
    _amazingly_ wide acceptance of what you insist can
    _scientifically_ constitute "evolution", i.e. please
    provide at least one example of a _non_ evolutionary change
    within a biological system.

    LN:- Did you have something else in mind that would shift
    random genetic drift into second place?

    JE:- Darwinian natural selection, exactly as Darwin stated
    it but with his implicit assumptions made explicit.

    LO:- Is there some definition of "all evolutionary change"
    that would cause you to question my statement? If so,
    perhaps you could share it with me?

    JE:- Any _non_ random gene freq change in a deme.

    Dr Moran refuses to even comment on the test I proposed in a
    previous post that accurately reverse engineers what Darwin
    said and therefore should, and does, halt all evolution via
    natural selection within any real biological system without
    stopping any random process such as mutation, genetic drift
    or random meiosis.

    Unless Dr Moran can provide a _controlled_ experiment (an
    experiment that controls for selection) to test if random
    processes such as genetic drift can _alone_ validly cause
    any evolutionary change,
    L.P. without the assistance of a _non_ random process such
    as Darwinian natural selection, then Dr Moran is not
    proposing any scientific solution as to what evolution
    may be within nature. The fact is, selection can cause
    evolution without sampling error but sampling error
    cannot cause evolution without selection, only genetic
    dissipation, i.e. a Darwinian fitness _reduction_.

    _____________________________________________
    I propose that Dr Moran's view that a random process can
    cause evolution on its own to be entirely false and can be
    tested to be so by any independent observer.
    _____________________________________________

    Here again, is my proposed test: The only possible way to
    halt all evolutionary change via the non random process of
    Darwinian natural selection is to force a biological
    population of Darwinian selectees (fertile forms) to have
    exactly the same _total_ number of reproduced _fertile_
    forms within one population. Forcing exactly the same life
    spans or exactly the same number of infertile forms or
    anything else will _not_ stop Darwinian natural selection.
    The fact that this reverse engineering experiment remains
    the only possible way to halt all Darwinian natural
    selection within one population constitutes a "prima face"
    evidence for the Darwinian process being the _only_
    mechanism required for selective change within any natural
    population of life forms.

    Via such an experiment, random changes to a population
    become free to cause random gene freq. changes _independent_
    of any Darwinian (non random) selective mechanism. My
    prediction is: this will result in the dissipation of each
    and every Darwinian selectee within that population, i.e.
    each selectee will eventually degenerate. Because each
    selectee is being artificially protected, the degeneration
    will not be effective until it becomes impossible to
    maintain that selectee's Darwinian total to remain exactly
    the same as every other, within one population. At this
    point Darwinian selection forces itself to correct the
    dissipation caused by random gene freq. changes operating
    without selection.

    The above is consistent with the epistemological position
    that random processes cannot be verified even if they can be
    refuted. A valid theory of nature must be able to verified
    or refuted. Either, alone, is not enough. Thus, any random
    theory of evolution is not a scientific proposition no
    matter how much Dr Moran et al may favour it.

    It is common sense that random changes in gene freq. acting
    alone, must disrupt the carefully balanced coordination of
    any genetic system. At _best_, such random changes can only
    cause equally good and bad fitness changes. However,
    without any selective filter the only possible result is to
    turn genetic order into genetic chaos resulting in a loss
    of fitness.

    It is basic to Darwinian theory that selection requires
    variation, i.e. unless you have heritable variation
    selection cannot operate. This does _not_ mean that
    selection and variation are equivalent. It simply means that
    _both_ are required for a valid Darwinian evolutionary
    change. As far as random genetic drift is concerned, random
    sampling error remains entirely directionless even it can
    delete alleles, i.e. about the same number of "good" and
    "bad" alleles will be deleted. A directionless deletion of
    alleles can only constitute random variation over time
    (temporal variation) reducing variation. Note that random
    mutation constitutes random variation in space (as does
    random meiosis). Neither random changes can validly be
    defined as evolution without a selective filter because
    random change without any selective filter can only
    dissipate Darwinian individuals. Dissipation is _not_
    evolution. It is redefined to be so then evolution just
    becomes: "anything goes",
    L.Q. the clarity and testability of evolutionary theory
    becomes discarded. The fact that Dr Moran et al refused
    to consider just the possibility that genetic drift can
    only validly constitute temporal variation and not
    evolution is evidence for a massive gene centric bias
    that exists within today's evolutionary theory.

    The continued insistence by the gene centric Neo Darwinistic
    school that just a random process can alone, validly cause
    evolution without selection is invalid. The fact that this
    school refuses to even consider just the possibility that a
    major error exists within it, is proof of a state of denial.
    Such a stress reaction is predicted via Darwinian theory.
    The fact is, this gene centric school has been misusing over
    simplified models for more than 50 years. The random
    sampling error view of evolution is just an over simplified
    mathematical model. A model is _not_ a theory and a
    simplified model cannot validly compete and win against the
    theory it was simplified from. The damage done to
    evolutionary theory via such consistent misuse is enormous.
    The recalcitrant attitude conveyed by Dr Moran within sbe
    discussion simply adds to the damage.

    Best Wishes to all,

    John Edser Independent Researcher (Posting from Bonn,
    Germany)

    PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

    [email hidden]

  20. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    PR:- What would an organism have to do before you would
    consider its behavior anomalous?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    TT:- It would need to be clear that its actions are not
    benefitting its relatives. Ants and bees "commit
    suicide" - but they do it so their their reproductive
    relatives have a better chance in life. Suicide bombers
    are /probably/ malfunctioning organisms - but when their
    actions cause big shifts in global economies - and much
    in the way of money and resources to change hands - it's
    hard to be sure that their actions are not actually
    benefitting their relatives.

    Quoted message said:

    PR:- We already had this debate, Tim. As I recall, your
    side lost. (see 'Adaptation and Natural Selection',
    Williams, 1966).

    TT:- ...which is largely a (faulty, but perhaps needed at
    the time) argument against the existence of group selection.

    Group selection is not the issue here - since I was
    proposing plain-and-simple kin selection as a possible
    explanation.

    JE:- Kin selection is a form of group selection. The value
    rb is constituted by a _group_ of organisms unless b=1 (the
    beneficiary is an identical twin/clone). Such an additive
    grouped fitness is selected at the Darwinian level
    _firstly_, only allowing selection at the group level to go
    with and not against, selection at the Darwinian fertile
    organism level of selection within it. If selection at the
    group level does go against selection at the Darwinian level
    (which it must do if Hamilton's selfish gene is to produce
    organism fitness altruism and not organism fitness
    mutualism) then _both_ levels suffer an absolute reduction
    in fitness pushing both levels towards extinction. There is
    no future pushing selfish genes into reproductions by proxy
    when you are only aiding your Darwinistic competitors in a
    non mutual way, even if they are related r to yourself.

    Regards,

    John Edser Independent Researcher (Posting from Bonn
    Germany)

    PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia

    [email hidden]

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