J
John Edser
Guest
friend <[email protected]> wrote:
>> JE:- Darwinian natural selection, exactly as Darwin
>> stated it but with his implicit assumptions made
>> explicit.
> BOH:- I think I should point out that John's definition of
> fitness excludes the possibility of drift (because he
> defines fitness in terms of the actual number of
> offspring, rather than the expected value).
F:- Is the expected value of any conceivable use?
JE:- Yes: when (which is most of the time) we do not have an
exact measure of total Darwinian fitness for every Darwinian
selectee within one population.
As long as the expected value:
1) Attempts to measure _total_ Darwinian fitness per
selectee and not just a sub total.
2) The expectation does not replace any actual, measured
Darwinian fitness total.
Then: the expected value is not misused. If the expected
value is just a simplified model of Darwinian total fitness
and attempts to compete and win against it, then such a
model of expected fitness is utterly misused because the
model seeks to replace the reality it is only attempting to
model! Unbelievably, this continues to be a general error
within gene centric Neo Darwinism.
> JE:- Dr O'Hara has misrepresented my position. Drift is
> _included_ as temporal variation (random variation over
> time) within Darwinian selective events. Mutation is
> included as random variation within genetic space.
> Darwinian evolution by natural selection has, from its
> inception, required variation that is assumed to be
> random. Only _non_ random forms of variation can validly
> compete against Darwinian selection for evolutionary
> causation. Sampling error is not one of them. Isn't it
> just obvious that an "expected value" is just an
> approximation of "the actual number of offspring" which I
> stress (yet again) is the TOTAL (requiring a time frame to
> complete) of only FERTILE forms reproduced into ONE
> population by EACH Darwinian selectee (one fertile form)?
> Please note that Dr O'Hara, refused to address the problem
> that I addressed in detail: setting up a _controlled_
> experiment to test if random patterns can _alone_, cause
> "evolution".
F:- I think only with genetic engineering is it possible to
even approach random patterns. And then it is very
imperfect practically. Very difficult.
JE:- Random patterns remain: random. Thus, they cannot be
predicted.
> AGAIN: Please state what would be EXCLUDED from such an
> _amazingly_ wide acceptance of what Dr Moran insists can
> _scientifically_ constitute "evolution", i.e. would Dr
> Moran please provide at least one example of a _non_
> evolutionary change within a biological system. PLEASE
> COMMENT ON THE BELOW:-
> 1) Drift defined as evolution is not testable because any
> random pattern can validly be assumed to be caused by
> either a random or non random process.
> 2) It is only possible to halt all selection within a
> natural population by forcing the _total_ number of
> _fertile_ forms reproduced by each Darwinian selectee
> in one population to remain equal. Does Dr Moran agree
> or disagree? Only by controlling selection can random
> genetic drift patterns even be observed acting _alone_.
G:- If then...
> Does Dr Moran dispute the fact that to just observe the
> effect of random patterns on their own, selection must be
> controlled? Does Dr Moran understand/teach the need for
> controlled experiments to his students? The predicted net
> result of drift without selection within a controlled
> experiment is the dissolution of every Darwinian selectee
> within that population. Does Dr Moran disagree with this
> prediction? If Dr Moran agrees with the prediction, how
> can he maintain that genetic dissolution that inevitably
> leads to a _lowering_ of Darwinian fitness for every
> selectee constitute "evolution"?
H:- I think it is much worse than this; my understanding may
be too narrow but too much has happened (eg. crossover)
before the individual is subject to very much selection to
regard it as 'just' random. So even with selection the
prognosis may not be so good.
JE:- My main point is: only NON random patterns can be
controlled,
H.a. eliminated. Random patterns cannot be eliminated, only
allowed for.
To test if ANY random pattern can cause evolution, selection
must be controlled and eliminated within an experimental
situation. Such a requirement is just _basic_ science. Dr
Moran et al wishes to classify just a random pattern as
"evolution" without having to supply any experimental proof
that ANY random pattern can produce evolution without
selection, i.e. he wishes to dictate what evolution is just
to suit his own purposes. What are his purposes? You will
have to ask Dr Moran that question...
> JE:- Genetic drift without selection cannot cause
> evolution even it can cause gene freq changes in a deme.
> Selection can cause evolution without genetic drift but
> genetic drift cannot cause evolution without selection.
> Random genetic drift is just temporal variation; nothing
> more and nothing less. Evolution at the gene centric level
> can only be validly defined as any non random gene freq.
> change in a deme.
I:- Is selection on the random change exactly *that* non
random change?
JE:- Yes, the selective event is NON random even if the
variation that is provided was only random. Ever since its
inception non random selection has required random
variation.
Regards,
John Edser Independent Researcher
PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia
[email protected]
>> JE:- Darwinian natural selection, exactly as Darwin
>> stated it but with his implicit assumptions made
>> explicit.
> BOH:- I think I should point out that John's definition of
> fitness excludes the possibility of drift (because he
> defines fitness in terms of the actual number of
> offspring, rather than the expected value).
F:- Is the expected value of any conceivable use?
JE:- Yes: when (which is most of the time) we do not have an
exact measure of total Darwinian fitness for every Darwinian
selectee within one population.
As long as the expected value:
1) Attempts to measure _total_ Darwinian fitness per
selectee and not just a sub total.
2) The expectation does not replace any actual, measured
Darwinian fitness total.
Then: the expected value is not misused. If the expected
value is just a simplified model of Darwinian total fitness
and attempts to compete and win against it, then such a
model of expected fitness is utterly misused because the
model seeks to replace the reality it is only attempting to
model! Unbelievably, this continues to be a general error
within gene centric Neo Darwinism.
> JE:- Dr O'Hara has misrepresented my position. Drift is
> _included_ as temporal variation (random variation over
> time) within Darwinian selective events. Mutation is
> included as random variation within genetic space.
> Darwinian evolution by natural selection has, from its
> inception, required variation that is assumed to be
> random. Only _non_ random forms of variation can validly
> compete against Darwinian selection for evolutionary
> causation. Sampling error is not one of them. Isn't it
> just obvious that an "expected value" is just an
> approximation of "the actual number of offspring" which I
> stress (yet again) is the TOTAL (requiring a time frame to
> complete) of only FERTILE forms reproduced into ONE
> population by EACH Darwinian selectee (one fertile form)?
> Please note that Dr O'Hara, refused to address the problem
> that I addressed in detail: setting up a _controlled_
> experiment to test if random patterns can _alone_, cause
> "evolution".
F:- I think only with genetic engineering is it possible to
even approach random patterns. And then it is very
imperfect practically. Very difficult.
JE:- Random patterns remain: random. Thus, they cannot be
predicted.
> AGAIN: Please state what would be EXCLUDED from such an
> _amazingly_ wide acceptance of what Dr Moran insists can
> _scientifically_ constitute "evolution", i.e. would Dr
> Moran please provide at least one example of a _non_
> evolutionary change within a biological system. PLEASE
> COMMENT ON THE BELOW:-
> 1) Drift defined as evolution is not testable because any
> random pattern can validly be assumed to be caused by
> either a random or non random process.
> 2) It is only possible to halt all selection within a
> natural population by forcing the _total_ number of
> _fertile_ forms reproduced by each Darwinian selectee
> in one population to remain equal. Does Dr Moran agree
> or disagree? Only by controlling selection can random
> genetic drift patterns even be observed acting _alone_.
G:- If then...
> Does Dr Moran dispute the fact that to just observe the
> effect of random patterns on their own, selection must be
> controlled? Does Dr Moran understand/teach the need for
> controlled experiments to his students? The predicted net
> result of drift without selection within a controlled
> experiment is the dissolution of every Darwinian selectee
> within that population. Does Dr Moran disagree with this
> prediction? If Dr Moran agrees with the prediction, how
> can he maintain that genetic dissolution that inevitably
> leads to a _lowering_ of Darwinian fitness for every
> selectee constitute "evolution"?
H:- I think it is much worse than this; my understanding may
be too narrow but too much has happened (eg. crossover)
before the individual is subject to very much selection to
regard it as 'just' random. So even with selection the
prognosis may not be so good.
JE:- My main point is: only NON random patterns can be
controlled,
H.a. eliminated. Random patterns cannot be eliminated, only
allowed for.
To test if ANY random pattern can cause evolution, selection
must be controlled and eliminated within an experimental
situation. Such a requirement is just _basic_ science. Dr
Moran et al wishes to classify just a random pattern as
"evolution" without having to supply any experimental proof
that ANY random pattern can produce evolution without
selection, i.e. he wishes to dictate what evolution is just
to suit his own purposes. What are his purposes? You will
have to ask Dr Moran that question...
> JE:- Genetic drift without selection cannot cause
> evolution even it can cause gene freq changes in a deme.
> Selection can cause evolution without genetic drift but
> genetic drift cannot cause evolution without selection.
> Random genetic drift is just temporal variation; nothing
> more and nothing less. Evolution at the gene centric level
> can only be validly defined as any non random gene freq.
> change in a deme.
I:- Is selection on the random change exactly *that* non
random change?
JE:- Yes, the selective event is NON random even if the
variation that is provided was only random. Ever since its
inception non random selection has required random
variation.
Regards,
John Edser Independent Researcher
PO Box 266 Church Pt NSW 2105 Australia
[email protected]