Condolences to the Spanish

Discussion in 'Your Bloody Soap Box' started by bioguy, Mar 11, 2004.

  1. bioguy

    bioguy New Member

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    I just wanted to express my condolences to my Spanish friends on this forum. I hope that you find the [email protected]$tards that bombed your trains today and bring them to justice.
    -Bioguy
     
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  2. alicem

    alicem New Member

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    Hey Bio

    that was a really thoughtful post :) I have worked in Spain as a young woman; Madrid, Valencia, Barcelona, Pyrenees etc so my phone has been so busy and myself so worried for the little ones that are now becoming beautiful young women or men. None of all my extended families have been hurt 'Gracias A Dios' (excuse me not being able to put the accents where necessary) but still there are way too many dead and everytime I check more have been found.

    E.T.A, Osama or maybe a conjunction. I say to them....PICK ON THOSE ENROLLED IN THE FORCES instead of innocents.

    A x :(
     
  3. DiabloScott

    DiabloScott New Member

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    I love Spain. Some non-corporal part of me is Spanish I'm sure. I've been on that very train, in those very stations... I have friends that still use them and I have friends that have witnessed ETA bombings. This is tearing me apart.

    Abrazos a todos mis amigos alla.
     
  4. alicem

    alicem New Member

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    I know exactly where you are coming from D. Everything you said applies to me too; same station, trains, a feeling that I was Spanish in a previous life (odd but I have always felt that way)friends and extended families thanks to my Au Pairing when younger let alone being in Barcelona when they decided to blow up that Pryca. It is horrendous yet so shocking I sort of can't get my head round it. Madrid is relativley such a small city so everyone will know someone who was unwittingly involved. Have you got word from your friends at all? I pray that they wern't hurt.

    Talk about timing as well; coming up to Semana Santa. (for those that may read this and not know it is their Holy Week what with us being in the run up to Easter. It is a massive Religious festival with the Catholic Icons paraded through the streets and other religious rites carried out too)

    I'm furious and so terribly sad for those who have passed away and their families. :( Alice x
     
  5. nurul

    nurul New Member

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    Hola Alicem. Yo tambien estoy super afectado por lo de ayer. Cada mes etreno en Catalunya con la bici aunque vivo en Cheshire y muchas veces cogo la bici hasta Derby. Es super fuerte lo de ayer y espero que eta tiene la culpa porque si no....estmaos en plan guerra por europa ya.
     
  6. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    I too wish to express my condolences to the Spanish people.

    My sympathy goes out to all those who have be bereaved in this terrible, terrible atrocity.

    My own country (Ireland) has had to live with 30 years of terrorism.
    I empathise fully with how people in Spain are feeling right now.

    Nothing can justify the taking of any human life, in the way it was so cruelly taken in central Madrid yesterday.
    Indeed yesterday was Spain’s September 11th.

    I am attaching a poem by the great WWI British Poet : Wilfred Owen, who's experiences in the trenches of WWI, inspired him to
    become a pacifist and a firece critic of all violence.

    For those who were mercilessly murdered here is Wilf Owens
    greatest poem : Strange Meeting.


    Strange Meeting

    It seemed that out of battle I escaped
    Down some profound dull tunnel, long since scooped
    Through granites which titanic wars had groined.

    Yet also there encumbered sleepers groaned,
    Too fast in thought or death to be bestirred.
    Then, as I probed them, one sprang up, and stared
    With piteous recognition in fixed eyes,
    Lifting distressful hands, as if to bless.
    And by his smile, I knew that sullen hall,-
    By his dead smile I knew we stood in Hell.

    With a thousand pains that vision's face was grained;
    Yet no blood reached there from the upper ground,
    And no guns thumped, or down the flues made moan.
    'Strange friend,' I said, 'here is no cause to mourn.'
    'None,' said that other, 'save the undone years,
    The hopelessness. Whatever hope is yours,
    Was my life also; I went hunting wild
    After the wildest beauty in the world,
    Which lies not calm in eyes, or braided hair,
    But mocks the steady running of the hour,
    And if it grieves, grieves richlier than here.
    For by my glee might many men have laughed,
    And of my weeping something had been left,
    Which must die now. I mean the truth untold,
    The pity of war, the pity war distilled.
    Now men will go content with what we spoiled,
    Or, discontent, boil bloody, and be spilled.
    They will be swift with swiftness of the tigress.
    None will break ranks, though nations trek from progress.
    Courage was mine, and I had mystery,
    Wisdom was mine, and I had mastery:
    To miss the march of this retreating world
    Into vain citadels that are not walled.
    Then, when much blood had clogged their chariot-wheels,
    I would go up and wash them from sweet wells,
    Even with truths that lie too deep for taint.
    I would have poured my spirit without stint
    But not through wounds; not on the cess of war.
    Foreheads of men have bled where no wounds were.


    'I am the enemy you killed, my friend.
    I knew you in this dark: for so you frowned
    Yesterday through me as you jabbed and killed.
    I parried; but my hands were loath and cold.
    Let us sleep now....'
     
  7. alicem

    alicem New Member

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    Hola Nurul

    ?que puedo decir? Tengo miedo porque pienso que ETA no tiene la culpa. No es su estilo. No cabe duda que eso huele a Bin Laden y ahora necesitamos esperar a ver lo que el gobierno Espanol van a hacer. No puedo ni empezar a pensar de los ramificaciones. Perdoname, estoy demasiado triste para escribir mas, es una pesadilla.

    Hasta luego

    Alice :(
     
  8. nurul

    nurul New Member

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    Ojo. dices que huele de Bin laden. pero lo que paso en madrid hace 2 dias huele de un reprisal. Hay una guerra en Iraq y cada dia muere gente innocente y habia una guerra en Afghanistan y cada dia muere gente innocente. Repito. Un guerra. No una guerra plleado en un pais con parametros geographicales. Azna y su gobierno y su pais esta envuelto ya en dimplomacy internatioanl y politica internacional desde que entra en el UE. Espana y todos los paises envuelto en la guerra, aunque espana no tiene "ayudar militar", creen que van a pasar de almenna de guerra en sus "back garden"? Uno tiene que diferenciar entre atentado religioso 9 y todos los religions son culpables) y un atentado como reprisal. Entonces tengo mas miedo si has ido un grupo de arabes porquesi van a matar gente en Madrid, van a acabar con el resto de europa. Europe ahs sponsered terrorism and was for many years. Europe has sold arms during the cold war and beyond for decades. The US has blood on its hands in Africa, latin America, Mid-east and Eastern Europe. So wh yare we so surprised when we are attacked here? Are we not a global community now?
    un saludo Alicia
    oye una pregunta que bici tienes y que tipo de bici llevas y donde haces rutas?
     
  9. james Haury

    james Haury New Member

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    May the terrorists be brought to justice .If they are ETA or Al quaeda is not important, they have committed a brutal and cowardly act.My condolences to the people of Spain.
     
  10. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    News reports are stating that the Al Queda connection is now being seriously considered in Spain - the Spanish authorities appear to be seriously considering the possibility that Al Queda are responsible for this attack.

    If indeed Al Queda are responsible for this attack - it looks like
    those European countries who have supported the USA are now
    in the frame as potential targets.
    This is a worrying development.
     
  11. alicem

    alicem New Member

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    Hey all and N,

    you know what? I saw and obvs. read your msg. The problem is that I am not sure who can speak or read Spanish here so it did actually make me laugh to see your few sentences in English and I did say a quiet 'thank you' to those upstairs. We cannot continue on an English Language based site about all of this unless in im. It isn't fair on those who cannot interpret what we are saying.

    So maybe I should translate what you N wrote to Limerick as he for one...(don't know James) is actually so solid in his intellect; views and un biased opinions (minus our anti U+A opinions...lol)yet cannot comment on what you wrote as I think he can't speak Sp. although it wouldn't be beyond me to be wrong....

    Fact is, from day one 1 I said 'no huele a E.T.A' (basically that it didn't have a wiff regarding E.T.A and their tactics) and I knew it was from laden/al queada....no offence, but I will not give them or any terrorist link any capital letters as they so don't deserve it at all.

    I have lived in Northern Ireland and been there in Barcelona when they blew up my 'local shop' called PRYCA. My Mum was scared stiff for me and my other University friends, but, you know what? We wern't scared. It made us dig deep down inside with a stronger resolution that ever. Army brats don't lie down easily.

    Wait until midnight to see how the polls have changed. Not actually that that matters on second thought. -(if Az.r doesn't win it will be a massive goal for those terrorists!!!)- Look inside yourselves; ourselves, cry as I do admit to having been doing as Spain is like my own turf but still one needs to get a grip and face it.

    They can carry on; blow up certain pinnacles like what may happen in the U.K now. Yes, we do mourn those who have died like we do daily in the Middle East, Northern Ireland, Spain let alone all the other countries that have faced such adversity. One thing I damn well will not stand for is that no terrorist bombings will make me weak and submissive.

    'They' won't crush me and they certainly won't make me step down from this free forum as we know it as. 'They' want that and sorry; tough tit, it isn't about to happen! Another thing that amazes me is this forums' posting; the ammount who have 'viewed' this thread yet not posted really does make me wonder where people are coming from...."My life is o.k as long as no one I know is dead or hurt so can carry on peddalling" ~WAKE UP CALL~.

    Life, cycling and various personal passions let alone those regarding general cycling carries on for the strength we indulge in it. We should be aware of that and speak up before we just nod and say half heartedly 'poor you' or 'what a shame'.

    Alice
     
  12. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Alice
    It's good to read that you're not intimidated by terrorism - I'm not sure if I am this brave ?

    When i heard the news of this attack on Thursday last, I immediately though that it could not have been ETA.
    From my little knowledge of ETA, they target economic targets and they minimise lose of life.
    I immediately thought that if this attack was by ETA - either they have gone completely mad, or they are hell bent on bringing down
    all of Spain upon them.
    It simply does not make sense that they would murder 200 pople and injure thousands of people.
    That's why when the Spanish goverment stated that it was ETA, I thought that it was a bit suspicious.
    Now according to the BBC, it appears that Al Qaeda are being blamed.
    It seems that because the Spain supported the US and U.K. that Al Queda are seeking revenge on them.

    And you are quite correct in your observation about people visiting threads but not expressing an opinion.
    I think that this is a very relevant point that you make because people should post comments, especailly on this thread.
    If an event like the Madrid bombing doesn't move people to post
    messages of support, what will ?
    Cycling's importance is irrelevant on a thread like this.
     
  13. alicem

    alicem New Member

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    QUOTE]Originally posted by limerickman
    Alice
    It's good to read that you're not intimidated by terrorism - I'm not sure if I am this brave ?

    When i heard the news of this attack on Thursday last, I immediately though that it could not have been ETA.
    From my little knowledge of ETA, they target economic targets and they minimise lose of life.
    I immediately thought that if this attack was by ETA - either they have gone completely mad, or they are hell bent on bringing down
    all of Spain upon them.
    It simply does not make sense that they would murder 200 pople and injure thousands of people.
    That's why when the Spanish goverment stated that it was ETA, I thought that it was a bit suspicious.
    Now according to the BBC, it appears that Al Qaeda are being blamed.
    It seems that because the Spain supported the US and U.K. that Al Queda are seeking revenge on them.

    And you are quite correct in your observation about people visiting threads but not expressing an opinion.
    I think that this is a very relevant point that you make because people should post comments, especailly on this thread.
    If an event like the Madrid bombing doesn't move people to post
    messages of support, what will ?
    Cycling's importance is irrelevant on a thread like this.
    [/QUOTE]

    Hey Lim,

    yep, in my mind there was/is no idea that 'al queada'; was/are to blame. E.T.A are very stongly linked to the I.R.A and have so many common pathetic characteristics like a phone call to warn 'authorities' with a 'minor' explosion in most cases quite unlike this recent and actually half foiled by accident approach. I could go on but it is so complicated and I would end up writing an essay on dictatorships and I did enough of that at Uni! It was just all too close to Semana Santa and the elections today to appear to have come from E.T.A. Sad thing is that we all wished it was them as the threat wouldn't be so huge compared to what we are now finding out from the media.

    On watching Paris-Nice stage 7 yesterday I was actually feeling so sad for the Euskadi Euskadel squad. I couldn't even watch them wondering 'what if I am wrong'. I wondered if they have put out a press release on the bombings as personally I would hate to ride that race and get the 'flick' let alone any other team deciding to give me a few extras just to show us all.

    The team have constantly remained 'pro Basque' and hate to be referred to as Spanish. That is their choice and I have no problem with that as we are all entilted to our own political or religious views. In this case I did worry for them however. I wanted to post on it yesterday but held back...did the peleton let Vino take the stage in memory of Kivilev as I didn't see any gesture as he crossed the line that it was for K. on his families' sad anniversary or that no one was willing to chase down any other opponent with so many X'x, I's and A's in their name due to potential anger so let Vino go for it alone ?!

    I wouldn't say I am a total toughie re terrorism but 30 yrs of having to face it daily make me dislike even more such pathetic gestures. Every country whether we like it or not have Armies and if they have a quibble (sorry, that sounds patronising)..an argument of any sort that they feel cannot be talked through over a table then; blimey, go for it on a separate playing field opposed to commuter trains into major European or even non European cities. That is why peeps join up and others don't. So many of my family and extended ones would die (in their line of work), not happily, but go knowing their deaths saved 200 Madrilenos Innocentes. It is just how I have been bought up. After 9/11 for example I still flew to America as we cannot be held hostage to such attacks and let them bar us from living a life of freedom. If the worst happened, then it would have, but I will be dammed to be afraid of pathetic individuals who prefer to remain unnamed/unseen and balk at the fact that they will be. If we let them think they have made us the slightest bit scared then they have won. So, I still took my flight when others sat at home feeling 'terrified'.....~hello... look the verb up~ No matter what my political agenda is, if I wake up tomorrow and find that Azanar hasn't won despite previous polls then it will send the same message. To belittle is to be little.

    As for this forum and only a handful of us responding. Well, it really makes me fume. How many would have posted in the glory days of Indurain for example?! Spain and cycling go hand in hand yet of all the thousands here people just carry on wondering if their bike is 'good' enough; complain about various cycling injuries and how to cure them, if they have the best computer to d/l all their info from today and yesterday's rides or are maybe secretly worrying about being a bit too close to that conflicted part of the Pyrenees for this years TDF.

    A major rant is coming on so I should shut up for now. Just to say that MILLIONS took to the streets in Spain yet what, 5 of us here have bothered to express our sadness here? Pathetic. What would have happened I wonder if the major Sp. names in cycling had accidentally become one of those casualties? No need to answer. It would be an outporing of grief, real bemusment and anger.

    Personally if I need to spell it out I am becoming more and more disillusioned at 'humanity' as we see it today.

    Alice xxx

    :confused:
     
  14. alicem

    alicem New Member

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    Well it looks like my worst fears came true. The Spanish voted for whichever rights and believes they have, maybe distoted or not but the polls are in and al queada got what they wanted. Guess their next step is onto Britain.
     
  15. nurul

    nurul New Member

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    Alice the Spanish voted for Zaptero beacause Aznar withheld info. He was going down anyway. They say that Spain just had humanitarian aid their but what was the top civil guard doing there when he was shot dead about 1 month ago. Bandaging Iraqi children or comforting raped Iraqi women?
    I'm off to Barcelona in the next 14 days. No not to train but to see friends. At least won't bomb in Catalunya cos of their agreement with Batasuna's best friends. Did anyone shed a tea last week when the Suni muslims palced a dozen bombs in that aquare in Iraqi killing about 100-200 Shi-ites? North Africans now in Spain, hated anyway cos man Spanis cant stand muslims or "morros" as they quaintly put it (moors) will now face I think quite unthinkable relations with the Spanish. My friend from Asturias who works as an English teacher in a small village told her teenage schoolchildren this week that she had a Muslim friend. They were all shocked and looked at her with amazement. (by the way just in case you havent guessed she was referring to me). Excuse me while I get my zefal pocket pump and convert in into an AK47. Maybe down my seat tube i can place some dynamite. We need more information not a police state or even govt controlled info. Look at Italy, Burlosconi's joke state. People are angry in Spain cos info has been withheld and reporting has been so biased there. I haev had the fortune to live in 4 continents and the Iraq war and the Afghan events are jsut simply catching up with us now in Europe. War is not within the parameters of national boundaries. Alice aun no me has contado que bicis tienes?
     
  16. alicem

    alicem New Member

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    Firstly Nurul

    please do not ever try and second guess me on my politics. Yes, I may have come from a strong Army and Foreign Office background but I am a separate individual who is intelligent enough to know what she is she speaking of at times like this. Aznar was quite contradictoraly to your view as being 10 points up but due to Sp. ruling polls cannot be taken in the days leading up to a general election despite a 9/11 terrorism attack or not.

    (I did type another paragraph just then and deleted it..... )

    I am not scared to 'reveal' personal experiences and one of those would be to contradict you on the -catching up on Europe of the Iraqui wars or Afghanistan problems-...I see you have have missed out many like Bosnia, Moscow siege of the theatre let alone the blastings a month ago and then past and current dilemas re Northern Ireland, etc.....are they not close to home so they don't matter as much? To me your words say as much as to say that Madrid deserved what they have recently had to endure and maybe I am het up, but if I am right, your opinion is more dispicable than anyone not posting to send their love to Spain. I am glad to know you will feel safe in Cataluna. Everyone deserves to feel safe wherever they live.

    On my own back I chose to go to University in order to further my studies of Spain and Latin America; history, politics, literature and obviously language. On this topic I think for once that I actually know a damn sight more than many from our families experiences, my Catalan families and Madrid families experiences let alone a solid un partial learning of what and why etc....regarding who, what and why let alone the deep seated reasons that are behind either ETA or Laden's>obviously not in my course profile but an everyday need for knowlege....

    As for the Spanish disliking the Moors, sorry mate, but I think you have it more than slightly wrong. The Moors are much admired within the central structure of Spain-I exclude the Catalans here as yes, they are very anti and whenever I have been over teaching or au-pairing the 'Moorish' are almost slaves to the rich but I wasn't their employer so don't judge me on that one.- Just look at how many visit Sevilla and Granada every year for the beauty and passion of that Moorish influence that still stands to this day and is protected and even bragged about. The Moors that invaded the Southern parts of Spain were incredibly intelligent and were the unknown forerunners of many sciences than even the Greeks.

    Also, how about Flamenco? Not as in your traditional gettting a big hat and clacking your fingers with a flower btween your lips but of the likes of Joaquin Cortes as a simple observation? True Gysy looks, passion and rythm. He trained with the Spanish National Ballet and then had to combine his love of Flamenco with his training and then has literally blown us all away with such infusions. Why has a blonde haired blue eyed girl been to his shows got his cd's and passed them onto other friends with no knowlege of the strife of Spain past to their acclaim and accolade?

    As for any references to this side of Europe being anti Muslim. Well, that is amazing. How little you trust! Another jump seems to have been made hence me needing to tell you quite categorically that I have been best friends with a Tunisian Muslim since I was 12 and was actually dating a Muslim from Iraq ~funnily or not so enough!~ until Thursday when due to various things I had to break it off (before hearing the news not that it makes any difference). So, please don't tell me about tears when the Shiites bombed Central Baghdad during the Sunni's first free Religious festival or that will really get me rilied. Like you said, you have had the pleasure to live in four continentns as an Arab. I think that says it all. You are totally contradicting yourself on whatever opinion you have on our European Politics that like to have you here.

    As for what bike I have....does that really matter one iota here on this thread ? Perhaps you should take some quiet contemplation firstly before asking again and then I will tell you. This is not the forum whatsoever to be asking ....ask on another thread at another time or maybe I will second guess you as I end re the attributes or NOT of an AK 47

    Alice
     
  17. alicem

    alicem New Member

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    "War is not within the parameters of national boundaries".

    I forgot to reply to that, it just seemed so obvious. How right you are. Problem is people step into what others see as their own and BINGO we have another insane war be it with divided regions in Spain for this example or between the U.K and The Falklands. The U.K got what they wanted yet is it actually resolved..as in the real CORE of what I think was being fought for? NO.
     
  18. nurul

    nurul New Member

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    Alice I am very disappointed to see how you have totally misinterpreted what i have had to say and how you in saying that i am trying to second guess you have merely second and tripled guessed me. I have merely offered another perspective. Read carefully what i said, dont get angry and overreact as you have done and dont take it personally ok. By the way I ma not an arab but of course you dotn second guess. I am sorry to have offered an opinion. Having a "muslim" boyfriend doesnt mean yo u become a muslim it merely means you are exposed to more cultural differences. I will respond to the rest of your comments when i have the time. Please re read what i said. And as for not saying what bikes you have well I am sorry but we are within cycling forums.......
     
  19. nurul

    nurul New Member

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    i have just re read my original reply which you took such offence to and i cannot belive you told me i wa strying to second guess your politics. Trying switching "you" to one. It's a general comment i have made so stop trying to take it personally and reread what you put in response to mine. You are obviously an intelligent woman so show me that instead of getting inflamed cos you get your wires crossed. Man thnaks
     
  20. alicem

    alicem New Member

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    Maybe you could re read my reply again instead and tell me where exactly I got my wires crossed. I didn't take 'offense' to most of your post yet simply cited many examples that contradicted your own in my opinion.

    As for getting angry; yes, I can and will always get angry when hundreds are now dead thanks another inane act of pure hatred. No one deserves to have their lives taken from them like that.

    Maybe I shouldn't have used the sentence of 'second guessing' as you are quite narked by that. Thank you too for the advice on my grammar and what I should and shouldn't take personally. Most kind.
     
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