Consumer Reports trolls the 88% helmet line...



"Sorni" <[email protected]> writes:

> I ride bikes. I buy bikes (and bike-related accessories.) I shop at bike
> stores. I see other people (casual and "serious" cyclists) in stores and on
> roads and trails. I've never been inundated with "propaganda" re. helmets.


Try riding without a helmet for awhile. I've ridden both with and
without one and have been lectured more than a few times when not
riding with one. From cops (and I, too, live in San Diego, where it's
not yet a requirement for adults), colleagues, and busybodies. Unless
you're the recepient you probably won't notice/experience the
phenomenon.

--
Joe Riel
 
"Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> jtaylor wrote:
>
> <snipped>
> >
> > stop promoting helmets - stop insisting that you somehow have faith (in
> > spite of the facts) that they are a health benefit.

>
> Interesting that the "pro-helmet" statistics are to be dismissed, but
> the "anti-helmet" statistics are to be taken seriously. IMO, both
> should be approached with equal skepticism.
>
> Do helmets eliminate "88% of injuries"? Of course not. Will they save
> your bacon if you get hit hard by a motorized vehicle? Probably not.
> Will the act of wearing a helmet *increase* your chances of injury?
> Common sense says it will not.
>


Are you not giving an example of exactly that about what you complain?

You use the data to say that wearing helmets does not help, and then instead
of data use "common sense" to say they do not hurt.
 
jtaylor wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > jtaylor wrote:
> >
> > <snipped>
> > >
> > > stop promoting helmets - stop insisting that you somehow have faith (in
> > > spite of the facts) that they are a health benefit.

> >
> > Interesting that the "pro-helmet" statistics are to be dismissed, but
> > the "anti-helmet" statistics are to be taken seriously. IMO, both
> > should be approached with equal skepticism.
> >
> > Do helmets eliminate "88% of injuries"? Of course not. Will they save
> > your bacon if you get hit hard by a motorized vehicle? Probably not.
> > Will the act of wearing a helmet *increase* your chances of injury?
> > Common sense says it will not.
> >

>
> Are you not giving an example of exactly that about what you complain?
>
> You use the data to say that wearing helmets does not help, and then instead
> of data use "common sense" to say they do not hurt.


Perhaps I was unclear.

Let's try again. Do helmets eliminate "88% of injuries? I very much
doubt it. Will a helmet save your bacon if you get hit hard by a
motorized vehicle? I very much doubt it. Will the act of wearing a
helmet *increase* your chances of injury? I very much doubt it.

Is that better?

As someone once said: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies
and statistics".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(You snipped this, and other stuff, out last time. Maybe you won't do
so this time? ;-> )
 
"Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Will the act of wearing a
> helmet *increase* your chances of injury? I very much doubt it.
>


Most recent peer-reviewed study I read on the topic says, yes, it does.

Helmet wearing increased following an MHL and the rate of injury to cyclists
rose.
 
Sorni wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> (Note: Frank's snipping tactics employed. DOES make for easier rebuttal!)


My "snipping tactics" consist of removing the part of the post to which
I'm not replying. Elementary Usenet etiquette. Sorry it, too,
confuses you!

> > How odd, though, to berate someone for actually studying the issue
> > under discussion, and for knowing what they're talking about!

>
> "Hmmm. Right again, Frank" (line from a M*A*S*H episode, dripping with
> sarcasm.)


Right, indeed. Why _do_ you keep posting based on ignorant guesses?
Why _do_ you make fun of people who have actually learned about this
issue?

>
> Let's say there's X number of cyclists out there. Do, what, 60% of 'em use
> helmets? 55%?? 52%??? They're all stupid or ill-informed or brainwashed?
> (Similarities to national elections purely coincidental.)


Well, let's consider. In 1890, cycling was incredibly popular - at
least, among the middle and upper classes that could afford it. The
vast majority of people thought it was safe enough that no helmets were
needed.

In the 1940s and 1950s in France cycle touring was incredibly popular.
All those families riding out of the cities into the countryside
thought it was safe enough that no helmets were needed.

In the Netherlands, Denmark, China, India and many other nations,
cycling remains incredibly popular. The vast majority of cyclists
think it's safe enough that no helmets are needed.

In the US, in the early 1970s, cycling experienced a tremendous surge
of popularity. The vast majority of cyclists thought it was safe
enough that no helmets were needed.

In about 1975, a manufacturer of motorcycle helmets decided to go after
the American consumers in the booming bike market. Soon they sponsored
ads and articles saying cycling was dangerous, hoping to sell their
flimsy wares. They funneled money into Safe Kids and other lobbying
organizations. They sponsored research to "prove" that helmets were
amazingly (85%) effective.

And sure enough, a large percentage of Americans (who almost invariably
use bikes only as toys) added the heavily advertised hats to their
"special clothes" for cycling.

Are these "gotta-have-the-matching-sox" bikers ill informed and
brainwashed? Or are the millions upon millions more people who have
ridden for decades, through history, for practical transportation as
well as avid recreation?

It's absolutely true today that in societies where cycling is most
common, helmet use is most rare. And vise-versa.

If you're going to pretend it's a vote, at least let _all_ cyclists in
on the count.

- Frank Krygowski
 
jtaylor wrote:
> "Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:p[email protected]...
>
> .
>>
>> That's exactly the point. (SIGH!) The "poor people" aren't
>> REQUIRED to wear helmets,

>
> Yes they are, in many countries, to the detriment of public health.


Yet when Ozark mentioned programs to provide FREE (yes, FREE in all caps!
LOL) lids, Frank *****ed about that, too.

> The number of places where MHLs exist is increasing; due to
> fear-mongering by politicans, helped by people in the cycling
> community who can (or will) not understand the stats, who have
> pecuniary gains from selling ridiculously expensive foam hats, and
> who, when challenged on the facts, resort to "shouting" (on usenet =
> all-caps) and name-calling.


This from a guy (?) who NAME-CALLED ("Do you always /lie/ to your
customers?") one of the most respected posters on here and has yet to
apologize for it. (You DID mis-read his comment, you know.) It was rude
and inappropriate and unprovoked.

You're a hypocrite.

BTW, do you ever post to anything but helmet threads? I don't recall you
ever discussing bikes, or rides, or components, or... (Wait, don't tell me.
Something /political/, right?)

Bill S.
 
"Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> This from a guy (?) who NAME-CALLED ("Do you always /lie/ to your
> customers?") one of the most respected posters on here and has yet to
> apologize for it. (You DID mis-read his comment, you know.) It was rude
> and inappropriate and unprovoked.
>


You're wrong, twice.

To say a statement is such-and-so is not name-calling.

To say a person is a "pompous gasbas" or an "asshole" is.

And it's obvious to people who base their decisions on facts (unlike
youself, per your own statement) that helemts offer no protection, and are a
net negative to public health. For someone who

a) should know better
b) makes a profit by selling the things

to advise his potential customers of the opposite is exactly what I called
it.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Sorni" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Yet when Ozark mentioned programs to provide FREE (yes, FREE in all caps!
> LOL) lids, Frank *****ed about that, too.


What program to provide free lids?

--
Michael Press
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Sorni" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> I ride bikes. I buy bikes (and bike-related accessories.) I shop at bike
> stores. I see other people (casual and "serious" cyclists) in stores and on
> roads and trails. I've never been inundated with "propaganda" re. helmets.
> I made what for me was a common-sense CHOICE many years ago; and strangely
> enough, every single person I ride with has done likewise. To blame it on
> "agencies" is just a bunch of steaming horseshit.


If you did not wear a helmet you would have people at your
LBS telling you to wear a helmet, people on rides telling
you to wear a helmet, and even people yelling at you from
inside a car `Get a helmet!'

--
Michael Press
 
Sorni wrote:
>
> Yet when Ozark mentioned programs to provide FREE (yes, FREE in all caps!
> LOL) lids, Frank *****ed about that, too.


I think you need to re-read. Ozark mentioned programs for qualified
organizations to get _discounts_ on helmets. The helmets were not
free. (In fact, at $10, my bet is the helmet companies still made a
significant profit. Not that there's sin in making a profit. It's
just that this is another marketing move.)

The "free" part was the proposition that my bike club should incur the
expense to give these helmets away for free. You and Ozark seemed
miffed that I wouldn't jump at such a chance.

Apparently, you can't understand that I am not interested in promoting
helmets.

Granted, there was a time I did promote them. At that time, I hadn't
studied the issue. Like most people, I didn't realize there were two
sides to the story. Once I looked into it (as a result of Usenet
threads) I soon realized the pro-helmet side of the story was not only
weak, it was dishonest.

Since then, I've learned a lot about the issue. I've read many, many
research papers in the original. I've dug for lots of data on bike
safety from many sources. Based on what I've learned, I'm not going to
promote bike helmets. I'm not going to contribute to the lies I see
being spread.

- Frank Krygowski
 
Sorni wrote:

>>>That's exactly the point. (SIGH!) The "poor people" aren't
>>>REQUIRED to wear helmets,

>>
>>Yes they are, in many countries, to the detriment of public health.

>
>
> Yet when Ozark mentioned programs to provide FREE (yes, FREE in all caps!
> LOL) lids, Frank *****ed about that, too.


Whether the helmets are free to the end user or not, MHL are still a
detriment to public health.

R.
 
jtaylor wrote:
> "Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> This from a guy (?) who NAME-CALLED ("Do you always /lie/ to your
>> customers?") one of the most respected posters on here and has yet to
>> apologize for it. (You DID mis-read his comment, you know.) It was
>> rude and inappropriate and unprovoked.
>>

>
> You're wrong, twice.
>
> To say a statement is such-and-so is not name-calling.


You called him a liar. You're a liar for denying it.
 
jtaylor wrote:
> "Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> I am pro helmet use. I think it's a smart thing to do.

>
> You're wrong.


I know you are but what am I!

>> I am anti MHLs. I
>> think they're unduly restrictive and Big Brother-esque. 95% of the
>> threads (in their entirety) have NOT been about MHLs.

>
> Because you are wrong, we will have MHL's. That's the connection.


Red herring.


>> Wear a lid if you choose to; don't if you don't. You /should/
>> always have that choice, IMO

>
> The stop promoting helmets - stop insisting that you somehow have
> faith (in spite of the facts) that they are a health benefit. If you
> do not, we will get more MHLs, and the choice you say we should have
> will be taken away.


I don't "promote" helmets. I simply tire of pompous gasbag egghead
hypocrits /flaming/ people who CHOOSE to use them. (My saying it's a smart
thing to do has absolutely no bearing on some obscure MHL somewhere in BFE.)
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >
> > As someone once said: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies
> > and statistics".
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > (You snipped this, and other stuff, out last time. Maybe you won't do
> > so this time? ;-> )

>
> The "someone" was Benjamin Disraeli.


Leonard Henry Courtney, 'To My Fellow-Disciples at
Saratoga Springs,' The National Review [London] 26 (1895)
21-26 at page 25.

<http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/maths/histstat/lies.htm>

--
Michael Press
 
>> >> You really are a weasel. you snip the "let's consider". It's my
>> >> OPINION! It is also my opinion that you are an asshole.
>> >>
>> >> These helmet debates truly do bring out the worst in people. Of
>> >> course it does help us identify the weasels.
>> >
>> > :) It helps us identify the people who lose control and descend into
>> > juvenile namecalling!

>>
>> You mean like jtaylor accusing Mike J. of "lying" to his customers?!?

>
> I believe you are the only person who missed my multiple apologies for
> mis-reading, and missed Mike's gracious and gentlemanly acceptance.
>
> - Frank Krygowski


We've all been there on that one. Thank goodness I've reconfigured my
newsreader and email client so it's not so easy to accidentally send
something to a group instead of an individual. I recall an email I once
inadvertantly posted in a newsgroup, meant for somebody in sales at Trek,
regarding some leaky distribution that resulted in product ending up in
places it shouldn't. Oh my. Thankfully, there was nothing in it that wasn't
completely factual and that I couldn't stand behind in public, but it was
something that I would have much rather not had to! :>) The result was good
though; I endeavored to be even more transparent in my beliefs than before.
Of course, regarding my dealings with Trek, I think by now they can probably
guess how I'd weigh in on just about anything, without me having to email or
call.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
 
Richard wrote:
> Sorni wrote:
>
>>>> That's exactly the point. (SIGH!) The "poor people" aren't
>>>> REQUIRED to wear helmets,
>>>
>>> Yes they are, in many countries, to the detriment of public health.

>>
>>
>> Yet when Ozark mentioned programs to provide FREE (yes, FREE in all
>> caps! LOL) lids, Frank *****ed about that, too.

>
> Whether the helmets are free to the end user or not, MHL are still a
> detriment to public health.


That might be true (debatable), but since we weren't discussing MHLs...
 
jtaylor wrote:
> "Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:eek:[email protected]...
>> jtaylor wrote:
>>> "Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> message news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>> I don't need "data" to help me make
>>>> simple, basic decisions.
>>>
>>> But _your_ decisions, which are not suported by the data, limit _my_
>>> ability to decide. People who do not have "data" will rely instead
>>> on anecdote and advertising, and because of that MHL's get passed.

>>
>> If -- *IF*-- the topic of this thread becomes MHLs, then I will be
>> mostly in agreement with most of the mostly over-emotional
>> anti-helmet zealots. I don't favor MHLs. Period.
>>

>
>
> Then stop promoting their use. It's obvious to anyone who does use
> data to make their decisions that they do not confer a health
> benefit, and that promoting them increases the passing of MHLs, and
> then the choice is gone.


I don't promote their use; I /defend/ it.
>
> As for "over-emotional", when people present you with the facts that
> show you are wrong, calling them "gasbags" and "assholes" might be a
> tactic to restrain...


I called Frank an arrogant gasbag -- and I used restraint after his personal
and smug attack on me. Don't recall who I called an asshole -- perhaps it
was you? If so, well...stop living up to it and I'll stop pointing it out.

<eg>
 
> Poor people, like everyone else, are being told one should never ride a
> bike without a helmet. But poor people may not be able to afford a
> helmet.
>
> If they believe this nonsense, and if they can't afford a helmet, they
> will not ride bikes.


Or worse. In general they *will* ride bikes, because that's all that's
available to them. The extent to which they know they're breaking the law
further marginalizes them from mainstream society. It increases the chasm
between the haves and the have-nots... with the haves looking at, in our
area, predominately Hispanic men riding clunky bikes with low tires and no
helmet and thinking that's, well, ghetto.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Sorni wrote:
>>
>>
>> The /poor families/ can't afford helmets. You...decry (is that a better
>> word for you?) this "fact", while also arguing that they don't need 'em
>> and
>> shouldn't want 'em. You really can't spot the flaw in that, Mr.
>> Rational?!?
>>
>> >> [BS:] Since this thread ain't
>> >> about MHLs, the entire exchange was pointless.
>> >
>> > [fk:] Please re-read. You are apparently confused. I did not mention
>> > MHLs
>> > in the paragraph I wrote. It's quoted above, for your convenience.

>>
>> That's exactly the point. (SIGH!) The "poor people" aren't REQUIRED to
>> wear helmets, so why do you care if they can't afford them?

>
> I think most people followed me, but I'll explain in detail for you.
>
> Poor people, like everyone else, are being told one should never ride a
> bike without a helmet. But poor people may not be able to afford a
> helmet.
>
> If they believe this nonsense, and if they can't afford a helmet, they
> will not ride bikes.
>
> Personally, I think this is bad. Bicycling can be economical
> transportation to a paying job, to libraries, to less expensive stores,
> etc. I believe bicycling should be promoted, not discouraged.
>
> I recognize that there are many pro-helmet people who disagree - who
> are willing to discourage cycling in their zeal to promote helmets.
> Perhaps you're one of those people.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>
 
jtaylor wrote:
> "Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>>
>>> But for those who believe in the magic power of helmets, this is
>>> not a problem - well, not _their_ problem, anyway.

>>
>> See? There you go again. TWO SEPARATE ISSUES!!!!!!!!!
>>

>
> No. they are the same.
>
> Because there are people who, despite the facts, believe that foam
> hats have magic powers, we have MHL's.


"Magic powers". Way to stick to your precious "facts".

> Why do you deny this connection?


Because it's your contention and it's incorrect. TWO good reasons! LOL
 
>> Yet when Ozark mentioned programs to provide FREE (yes, FREE in all caps!
>> LOL) lids, Frank *****ed about that, too.

>
> What program to provide free lids?
>
> --
> Michael Press


Michael: There have been many local programs in the past, providing free
helmets to kids at the poorer schools in our area (Redwood City, CA). I'm
not aware of what's going on presently; these programs generally don't
involve local bike shops, but rather manufacturers dealing with schools
directly.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com