Continuously-variable transmission box in Honda MTB

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Van Bagnol, May 12, 2004.

  1. Van Bagnol

    Van Bagnol Guest

    Did anyone see the latest issue of _Mountain Bike Action_ featuring
    Honda's mountain bike and CVT drivetrain? Any comments?

    Van
    --
    Van Bagnol / v b a g n o l at earthlink dot net / c r l at bagnol dot com
    ....enjoys - Theatre / Windsurfing / Skydiving / Mountain Biking
    ....feels - "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng paniginip"
    ....thinks - "An Error is Not a Mistake ... Unless You Refuse to Correct It"
     
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  2. Michael Paul

    Michael Paul Guest

    "Van Bagnol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Did anyone see the latest issue of _Mountain Bike Action_ featuring
    > Honda's mountain bike and CVT drivetrain? Any comments?
    >
    > Van
    > --
    > Van Bagnol / v b a g n o l at earthlink dot net / c r l at bagnol dot com
    > ...enjoys - Theatre / Windsurfing / Skydiving / Mountain Biking
    > ...feels - "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng paniginip"
    > ...thinks - "An Error is Not a Mistake ... Unless You Refuse to Correct

    It"

    looks heavier than a regular drivetrain

    Michael
     
  3. Mark \(UK\)

    Mark \(UK\) Guest

    Michael Paul wrote:
    > "Van Bagnol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >> Did anyone see the latest issue of _Mountain Bike Action_ featuring
    >> Honda's mountain bike and CVT drivetrain? Any comments?
    >>

    >
    > looks heavier than a regular drivetrain
    >
    > Michael


    Downhill rigs looking more and more like motorcross every year.... sure does
    look heavy.

    A few car manufacturers have made models with CVT boxes over the years, i
    think DAF was the first, but they were riddled with problems, related to
    belt slippage and the requirement for very frequent maintainance and such
    things. I think i read that Audi have made a CVT system which eliminates
    belts so maybe things are improving, Even so, i suspect that Honda bike
    wouldn't be good for much more than race runs, wouldn't go for long without
    maintenance i bet.

    Did anyone read about the technicalities of the Honda box? Is it belt/roller
    or some sort of expanding sprocket and chain?

    --
    Mark
     
  4. Shawn Curry

    Shawn Curry Guest

    Van Bagnol wrote:

    > Did anyone see the latest issue of _Mountain Bike Action_ featuring
    > Honda's mountain bike and CVT drivetrain? Any comments?
    >
    > Van


    Read it at the library. Looks fat and inefficient (I should know).
    Hopeless concept as an XC bike. Chain drive is just too efficient.

    Shawn
     
  5. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On Wed, 12 May 2004 17:08:24 +0100, "Mark \(UK\)"
    <[email protected]> may have said:

    >Michael Paul wrote:
    >> "Van Bagnol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >>> Did anyone see the latest issue of _Mountain Bike Action_ featuring
    >>> Honda's mountain bike and CVT drivetrain? Any comments?
    >>>

    >>
    >> looks heavier than a regular drivetrain
    >>
    >> Michael

    >
    >A few car manufacturers have made models with CVT boxes over the years, i
    >think DAF was the first, but they were riddled with problems, related to
    >belt slippage and the requirement for very frequent maintainance and such
    >things. I think i read that Audi have made a CVT system which eliminates
    >belts so maybe things are improving,


    If Audi's making it, don't expect it to be worth owning. They've had
    to go over to a 100,000-mile drivetrain warranty just to get people to
    buy their cars in the US, and their resale value on out-of-warranty
    units still isn't as high proportionately as most other makes. The
    only car that depreciates faster, in my experience, is Daewoo...and
    that's because GM took Daewoo off the North American market.

    > Even so, i suspect that Honda bike
    >wouldn't be good for much more than race runs, wouldn't go for long without
    >maintenance i bet.


    Honda probably figures that there's a market for wierd and unusual
    tech. I suspect that they will not sell many.

    >Did anyone read about the technicalities of the Honda box? Is it belt/roller
    >or some sort of expanding sprocket and chain?


    Only the former works in practice; variable-diameter pulleys drive a
    heavy belt. Sliding-cone-drive setups have been tried in the lab, and
    they always cause some fool at Popular Mechanics to write it up as The
    Next Really Great Thing That Will Be In Every Car In A Few Years.
    Oddly enough, they never make it to market. CVTs of the belt type are
    common in ATVs and LPCs (light personnel carriers; a glorified term
    for "golf cart") and are regarded and durable and reliable in most
    applications there. I don't know how Honda has adapted the concept to
    the relatively low velocities of a bicycle, but apparently they must
    have done so.

    Here's a picture of the bike:

    http://world.honda.com/news/2003/2030203.html



    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
     
  6. Mark South

    Mark South Guest

    "Werehatrack" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Wed, 12 May 2004 17:08:24 +0100, "Mark \(UK\)"
    > <[email protected]> may have said:
    >
    > >Michael Paul wrote:
    > >> "Van Bagnol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >> news:[email protected]t...
    > >>> Did anyone see the latest issue of _Mountain Bike Action_ featuring
    > >>> Honda's mountain bike and CVT drivetrain? Any comments?
    > >>>
    > >> looks heavier than a regular drivetrain
    > >>

    >
    > > Even so, i suspect that Honda bike
    > >wouldn't be good for much more than race runs, wouldn't go for long without
    > >maintenance i bet.

    >
    > Honda probably figures that there's a market for wierd and unusual
    > tech. I suspect that they will not sell many.


    Honda sometimes like to be the Sony of the vehicle market.

    > >Did anyone read about the technicalities of the Honda box? Is it belt/roller
    > >or some sort of expanding sprocket and chain?

    >
    > Only the former works in practice; variable-diameter pulleys drive a
    > heavy belt. Sliding-cone-drive setups have been tried in the lab, and
    > they always cause some fool at Popular Mechanics to write it up as The
    > Next Really Great Thing That Will Be In Every Car In A Few Years.
    > Oddly enough, they never make it to market. CVTs of the belt type are
    > common in ATVs and LPCs (light personnel carriers; a glorified term
    > for "golf cart") and are regarded and durable and reliable in most
    > applications there. I don't know how Honda has adapted the concept to
    > the relatively low velocities of a bicycle, but apparently they must
    > have done so.


    Last time we had the belt-drive-for-bikes discussion in here, there was a
    general consensus that it couldn't be done at all. Not reliably anyway.
    --
    Mark South
    Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net
    <<Tiens! Ce poulet a une grenade!>>
     
  7. Werehatrack

    Werehatrack Guest

    On Wed, 12 May 2004 22:00:02 +0200, "Mark South"
    <[email protected]> may have said:

    >Last time we had the belt-drive-for-bikes discussion in here, there was a
    >general consensus that it couldn't be done at all. Not reliably anyway.


    I'd have argued that myself if it wasn't for the fact that it appears
    that Honda may have come up with a kluge that at least permits the
    bike to move forward. How well it works is, of course unanswered, and
    I am skeptical about that subject. Even if they have made it work
    reasonably acceptably, though, I don't see it displacing the der
    setup anytime soon, since I can't see any way for it to be as
    efficient...and the limiting factor in bike performance is the
    powerplant, so drivetrain losses just aren't going to be tolerable to
    a lot of folks.

    The photo of the Honda bicycle shows a unit that bears more than a
    passing resemblance to a motorcycle. I doubt that this is mere
    coincidence. OTOH, as far as I can see, Honda doesn't have any
    marketing channels set up to get this to the places where it might
    sell if it really is a worthwhile piece of tech. In my opinion, that
    fact is a big hint that this is a showcase item with no mass
    production planned. Honda-branded bikes are sold at K-Mart, however
    as far as I know those are strictly pasted-on-label units rather than
    a product that actually emerged from Honda's plants. A bike with a
    CVT would not be a logical thing to market through KMart unless it was
    going to be *really* cheap.

    --
    My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
    Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
    Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
     
  8. On Wed, 12 May 2004 19:18:43 GMT, Werehatrack
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    [snip]

    >
    >Here's a picture of the bike:
    >
    >http://world.honda.com/news/2003/2030203.html
    >


    Dear Werehatrack,

    What I really like about this is the profile of the Japanese rider,
    which gives the five essentials that we bicycling enthusiasts all want
    to know:

    1) Birthday
    2) Place of birth
    3) Height
    4) Weight
    5) Blood type

    Is Japanese bicycling fiercer and bloodier than I've been led to
    believe? Are battlefield transfusions common? Do blood type A riders
    have a secret haemoglobin advantage over type O?

    Carl Fogel
     
  9. On Wed, 12 May 2004 20:57:39 GMT, Werehatrack
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Wed, 12 May 2004 22:00:02 +0200, "Mark South"
    ><[email protected]> may have said:
    >
    >>Last time we had the belt-drive-for-bikes discussion in here, there was a
    >>general consensus that it couldn't be done at all. Not reliably anyway.

    >
    >I'd have argued that myself if it wasn't for the fact that it appears
    >that Honda may have come up with a kluge that at least permits the
    >bike to move forward. How well it works is, of course unanswered, and
    >I am skeptical about that subject. Even if they have made it work
    >reasonably acceptably, though, I don't see it displacing the der
    >setup anytime soon, since I can't see any way for it to be as
    >efficient...and the limiting factor in bike performance is the
    >powerplant, so drivetrain losses just aren't going to be tolerable to
    >a lot of folks.
    >
    >The photo of the Honda bicycle shows a unit that bears more than a
    >passing resemblance to a motorcycle. I doubt that this is mere
    >coincidence. OTOH, as far as I can see, Honda doesn't have any
    >marketing channels set up to get this to the places where it might
    >sell if it really is a worthwhile piece of tech. In my opinion, that
    >fact is a big hint that this is a showcase item with no mass
    >production planned. Honda-branded bikes are sold at K-Mart, however
    >as far as I know those are strictly pasted-on-label units rather than
    >a product that actually emerged from Honda's plants. A bike with a
    >CVT would not be a logical thing to market through KMart unless it was
    >going to be *really* cheap.


    Dear Werehatrack,

    Honda does like to try new technology. They once showed off a fluid
    drive small-motorcycle transmission.

    But weren't there a lot of power-generator, lawn-mower, and car
    dealers who thought that the Honda motorcycle company had no marketing
    channels?

    Carl Fogel
     
  10. Pete

    Pete Guest

  11. Chalo

    Chalo Guest

    Shawn Curry <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > Looks fat and inefficient (I should know).
    > Hopeless concept as an XC bike. Chain drive is just too efficient.


    You miss the point. It was not an exercise intended to result in a
    better bicycle, it was an exercise intended to result in better motor
    company engineers.

    That said, derailleur systems are primitive, unreliable, inelegant
    junk that owe their existence to the fact that they are cheap as dirt
    to manufacture. If Brand S had invested the kind of engineering
    resources in, say, internal gear hubs that they have sunk into
    prolonging the heyday of derailleur systems, we'd already have better
    options available.

    Any motor vehicle drivetrain, for example, that did as thorough a job
    of rapid self-destruction as a bike derailleur system would go down in
    legend as a laughingstock. The fact that most derialleur bikes are
    toys or fetish objects rather than regular transportation allows the
    continued prevalence of multi-speed transmissions that self-digest in
    a few thousand miles and demand constant maintenance.

    Chalo Colina
     
  12. Shawn Curry

    Shawn Curry Guest

    Chalo wrote:
    > Shawn Curry <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Looks fat and inefficient (I should know).
    >>Hopeless concept as an XC bike. Chain drive is just too efficient.

    >
    >
    > You miss the point. It was not an exercise intended to result in a
    > better bicycle, it was an exercise intended to result in better motor
    > company engineers.


    I was stating facts, not making a "point". Nevertheless, I think you
    missed the point. It was an exercise to improve the bottom line, to
    show off Honda to a crowd that thinks SUV and Subaru.

    >
    > That said, derailleur systems are primitive, unreliable, inelegant
    > junk that owe their existence to the fact that they are cheap as dirt
    > to manufacture. If Brand S had invested the kind of engineering
    > resources in, say, internal gear hubs that they have sunk into
    > prolonging the heyday of derailleur systems, we'd already have better
    > options available.
    >
    > Any motor vehicle drivetrain, for example, that did as thorough a job
    > of rapid self-destruction as a bike derailleur system would go down in
    > legend as a laughingstock. The fact that most derialleur bikes are
    > toys or fetish objects rather than regular transportation allows the
    > continued prevalence of multi-speed transmissions that self-digest in
    > a few thousand miles and demand constant maintenance.
    >
    > Chalo Colina


    I think most consumers and manufacturers look at it differently. The
    wildly enthusiastic commuter might ride a dozen miles each way to work
    etc. 120 miles a week, 6000 miles/yr (remember, this is a very skewed
    population on these NGs). Oil the chain twice a month and replace the
    derailleurs, chain, etc twice a year. $300/year (you're not gonna buy
    new XTR replacement parts are you?). Big deal. A VERY efficient car
    would cost that much in gas alone. If they're like a lot of us they buy
    a new bike every few years. They're super hot ride from three years ago
    gets relegated to commuter status. The cost of acquiring the bike
    itself only amounts to the lost sale value of the outdated bike (I'm not
    considering the Seven Duo crowd here). S/he's saving big bucks! The
    market pressure to develop a new efficient transmission just isn't
    there. I commuted on a fixie quite a few years ago-costs even less. :)

    Shawn
     
  13. <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Wed, 12 May 2004 19:18:43 GMT, Werehatrack
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    > >
    > >Here's a picture of the bike:
    > >
    > >http://world.honda.com/news/2003/2030203.html
    > >

    >
    > Dear Werehatrack,
    >
    > What I really like about this is the profile of the Japanese rider,
    > which gives the five essentials that we bicycling enthusiasts all want
    > to know:
    >
    > 1) Birthday
    > 2) Place of birth
    > 3) Height
    > 4) Weight
    > 5) Blood type
    >
    > Is Japanese bicycling fiercer and bloodier than I've been led to
    > believe? Are battlefield transfusions common? Do blood type A riders
    > have a secret haemoglobin advantage over type O?
    >
    > Carl Fogel


    I noticed that too, and it made me laugh.
    It reads exactly like a Japanese fighting videogame, like Tekken, where the
    characters are identified in just the same way, including the blood group. I
    wonder if the videogame cliche came first, or if it's based on an actual
    practice in sports. ? I guess it's good to know.

    Philip
     
  14. Philip Williamson <[email protected]ersonictoo.net> wrote:
    >It reads exactly like a Japanese fighting videogame, like Tekken, where the
    >characters are identified in just the same way, including the blood group. I
    >wonder if the videogame cliche came first, or if it's based on an actual
    >practice in sports. ? I guess it's good to know.


    Horoscope-style prediction based on blood type is a popular supersition in
    Japan. It's the equivalent of listing someone's star sign in Western
    culture.

    I suppose it is marginally less ridiculous in that blood type is actually
    a physical property of the person in question.
    --
    David Damerell <[email protected]> Distortion Field!
     
  15. John Harlow

    John Harlow Guest

    > Oil the chain twice a month and replace the
    > derailleurs, chain, etc twice a year.


    I agree with Chalo here. Can you imagine telling "Suzie SUV" she has to oil
    her drivetrain every other week, and would have to replace her transmission
    every oil change?

    I and almost everyone I know carries a chain tool out of necessity.

    Compared to automobiles and almost all other vehicles, bicycle drivetrains
    are shit.
     
  16. Doki

    Doki Guest

    Werehatrack wrote:

    > Even if they have made it work
    > reasonably acceptably, though, I don't see it displacing the der
    > setup anytime soon, since I can't see any way for it to be as
    > efficient...and the limiting factor in bike performance is the
    > powerplant, so drivetrain losses just aren't going to be tolerable to
    > a lot of folks.


    Honda haven't published drivetrain losses for the CVT box, but I imagine it
    would operate something like a seamless Sturmey Archer hub. You'd always be
    pedalling at the right cadence which is going to help efficiency, the
    transmission can be protected from crap and dirt, and you're not dragging
    the chain through funny angles and idler gears on a derailleur. Might
    actually be more efficient. It looks as if there's still a chain doing the
    actual drive from the cranks to the back wheel. That said, they're racing it
    as a DH bike, so pedalling might not be *that* important.
     
  17. Shawn Curry

    Shawn Curry Guest

    John Harlow wrote:
    >> Oil the chain twice a month and replace the
    >>derailleurs, chain, etc twice a year.

    >
    >
    > I agree with Chalo here. Can you imagine telling "Suzie SUV" she has to oil
    > her drivetrain every other week, and would have to replace her transmission
    > every oil change?


    When was the last time you heard "Suzie SUV" say "I'm not going to
    commute by bike, there's too much maintenance involved." LOL
    You may get SS there to commute two miles on a cruiser now and then.
    Oil the chain once a year (Biff Bimmer can handle that).

    > I and almost everyone I know carries a chain tool out of necessity.


    For Commuting?
     
  18. g.daniels

    g.daniels Guest

    ok post the article.
     
  19. Dave Wilson

    Dave Wilson Guest

    "Philip Williamson" <[email protected]ersonictoo.net> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    [...]
    > I noticed that too, and it made me laugh.
    > It reads exactly like a Japanese fighting videogame, like Tekken, where the
    > characters are identified in just the same way, including the blood group. I
    > wonder if the videogame cliche came first, or if it's based on an actual
    > practice in sports. ? I guess it's good to know.
    >
    > Philip


    I belive the Japanese view blood group the same way other people view
    atrological signs. People with certain blood groups or signs are
    supposed to have certain characteristics.

    Dave
    www.davewilson.cc
     
  20. On 13 May 2004 09:23:08 -0700, [email protected] (g.daniels) wrote:

    >ok post the article.


    Dear Gene,

    If you're asking where the blood-type of the racer is mentioned, it's
    near the bottom of the web page about the CVT Honda bicycle:

    http://world.honda.com/news/2003/2030203.html

    If you're asking for an article about this curious Japanese
    horoscope-like belief in blood types, here's an example:

    http://allsands.com/Health/bloodtypeperso_zud_gn.htm

    David Damerell seems to be dead right about this odd blood-type
    notion.

    After pondering the matter, I've decided that I prefer the traditional
    inanity of a horoscope, since I can remember my birthday, but long ago
    forgot my blood type.

    Carl Fogel
     
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