Controlling HR while running

Discussion in 'Triathlon' started by xraptorx, Sep 3, 2003.

  1. xraptorx

    xraptorx New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am new to Tri training - especially the running and swimming.
    I have been working to build my base endurance on the run by running for an hour each day and trying to stay at 75% Max HR.

    Today I went for a run and after 15 minutes or so my HR was warmed up and at 70%. After 25 mins I am at 75% and still at the same slow (very slow) pace. Once I go over 30 mins of jogging, my HR hit 85 and finally started topping out at 90% Max. I truly could not slow down any further. I was basically walking at the pace I was doing and saw my energy disappear at that anerobic pace. But I stuck it out for 1 hour.

    My question is why can't I keep my HR at 75% and what might have caused it to skyrocket?
    I am now training in a tropical climate and not used to that - been living in Northern California up until a few days ago. Could the heat and humidity do this to me?

    Thanks
     
    Tags:


  2. Harrow

    Harrow New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2003
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    0
    xraptorx,

    Firstly, are you sure that you are at 90% of MHR? How did you determine your MHR? For me, the 220-age formula is very inaccurate. It gives me an MHR of 185, when my MHR is actually over 200. This is important because when I am running at a HR of 170, I am not doing 92% as the 220-age formula would suggest, but really just 85%.

    How do you feel you are going after the 30 minutes when your heart rate is doing supposedly 90% MHR? If you do not feel like you are pushing yourself, and could run at this pace for 60-90 minutes fairly comfortably, then don't worry. You are most likely doing 80 to 85%.

    Also, how
     
  3. Harrow

    Harrow New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2003
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Whoops...see previous post)

    Also, you are new to running, so you will find your heart rate will steadily drop over time. Keep a record of average heart rate for your runs, and you will see a downward trend. (Or else you will see your times drop for the same heart rate) This can be a great motivator. Hot humid climates will also raise you heart rate as your body works harder to sweat.

    Regards,
    Harrow.
     
  4. xraptorx

    xraptorx New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks Harrow,

    I have been running for about 1 week now. As for being sure what my Max HR is, I used the Polar410i Fit test to determine what my max HR is. Certainly it is probably off though.

    While jogging at a HR that is currently showing up at 75% I feel great and can go forever. When I hit 82%, I begin to go anerobic and get into difficulty. That is why I was trying to stay at 75% but have been unable to keep it at that, despite how slow I go, since moving to the hot and humid climate. It seems that after 25-30 mins, though the pace does not change, my HR just keeps climbing and goes to where I am totally anerobic and I end up quitting at 45-55 mins.

    I am trying to build the base cardio endurance so I can run for an hour or 2 at a jog while also building up so I can being to really run and not just jog at a slow 4 mi/hr pace.

    Any advice you have for a beginning runner, would be appreciated.

    Thanks again.
     
  5. Harrow

    Harrow New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2003
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    0
    Running for just a week !!!!

    Well, you should be expecting exactly what you are getting now.

    I looked back at my records, and over the first 3-4 months of running my HR dropped around 10% for the same distance/time.

    My biggest hint for a beginner runner is that you don't need to keep breaking time records to improve. Just get out there and keep doing your 30, 45, 60 minute runs. Go easy half the time, push it a little some other days. Once you are fit enough, push it quite hard over a short distance (say 5km) once a fortnight. Have a rest day once a week (maybe do a 30 min walk on this day). Do the occasional fun run, and keep a training record of distance/time/avg HR to monitor your improvement.

    To determine my MHR, I just wait until I am about 15 minutes into an easy run, and then do a half mile at a fast pace up an incline.

    My HR peaks out at around 200, which is probably a good indication of my MHR. But don't try this until you are confident you are fit enough that you will not have a heart attack.

    Regards,
    Harrow.
     
  6. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "xraptorx" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Thanks Harrow,
    >
    > I have been running for about 1 week now. As for being sure what my Max HR is, I used the
    > Polar410i Fit test to determine what my max HR is. Certainly it is probably off though.
    >
    > While jogging at a HR that is currently showing up at 75% I feel great and can go forever. When I
    > hit 82%, I begin to go anerobic and get into difficulty. That is why I was trying to stay at 75%
    > but have been unable to keep it at that, despite how slow I go, since moving to the hot and humid
    > climate. It seems that after 25-30 mins, though the pace does not change, my HR just keeps
    > climbing and goes to where I am totally anerobic and I end up quitting at 45-55 mins.
    >
    > I am trying to build the base cardio endurance so I can run for an hour or 2 at a jog while also
    > building up so I can being to really run and not just jog at a slow 4 mi/hr pace.
    >
    > Any advice you have for a beginning runner, would be appreciated.

    I'd throw away the HR monitor and buy a good stopwatch.

    Andy Coggan
     
  7. MJuric

    MJuric Guest

    On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 17:41:19 GMT, "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"xraptorx" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >> Thanks Harrow,
    >>
    >> I have been running for about 1 week now. As for being sure what my Max HR is, I used the
    >> Polar410i Fit test to determine what my max HR is. Certainly it is probably off though.
    >>
    >> While jogging at a HR that is currently showing up at 75% I feel great and can go forever. When I
    >> hit 82%, I begin to go anerobic and get into difficulty. That is why I was trying to stay at 75%
    >> but have been unable to keep it at that, despite how slow I go, since moving to the hot and humid
    >> climate. It seems that after 25-30 mins, though the pace does not change, my HR just keeps
    >> climbing and goes to where I am totally anerobic and I end up quitting at 45-55 mins.
    >>
    >> I am trying to build the base cardio endurance so I can run for an hour or 2 at a jog while also
    >> building up so I can being to really run and not just jog at a slow 4 mi/hr pace.
    >>
    >> Any advice you have for a beginning runner, would be appreciated.
    >
    >I'd throw away the HR monitor and buy a good stopwatch.
    >
    >Andy Coggan
    >
    >
    In a sense I agree with Andy. There are so many factors, as you're finding out heat is one
    of them, that effect HR. Relying solely on HR can be as big of a mistake as solely rely on
    any indicator wether it's pace, percieved effort et al. I agree that the 220-Age is usless
    and think you shoudl do a few tests, other than the the Polar one you've done, to find out
    were you really stand. A plethora of them are out there. However once you establish your
    true zones you can use it as another tool to help indicate your true running effort. However
    as Andy suggested, don't forget about the stopwatch.

    ~Matt
     
  8. Harrow

    Harrow New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2003
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    0
    Andy and Matts points are valid, but I still find my HRM very useful.

    It is motivating to see my avg HR drop for a given distance and time. This means you don't have to set a PB to see that your fitness is improving. (Before owning a HRM, I used to over train by always trying to go faster)

    Also, I use my HRM to stop me from going too fast, as I have a natural tendancy to constantly speed up.

    Regards,
    Harrow.
     
  9. Swanger

    Swanger Guest

    "Harrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Andy and Matts points are valid, but I still find my HRM very useful.

    I always find Andy's insights very useful but throwing away your HRM may be a bit extreme. Sure,
    there are lots of variables that cause your HRM to fluctuate, but I maintain that as long as you
    are wearing a HRM you have a better chance at understanding such fluctuations. If you don't
    believe that the human heart rate is an indicator of exertion then you may be of the opinion
    that HRM's are too simple for a complex job. That's exactly why I wear one. I know exactly where
    I can depend on a HRM for exertion accuracy and where I can't. After 12 years I find that I
    mostly depend on HRM's for easy days under AeT. These workouts generally outnumber all other
    workouts. Therefore, I could not throw away my HRM and still put in all the hours without
    running the chance of wearing myself out. I did that for too many years. I also wore a HRM
    during those years until I figured out how to use
    it.

    Rick Swanger (use to lurk in the old timer days)
     
  10. "Swanger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:D[email protected]...
    >
    > "Harrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Andy and Matts points are valid, but I still find my HRM very useful.
    >
    >
    > I always find Andy's insights very useful but throwing away your HRM
    may
    > be a bit extreme.

    Personally, I find HR to be a horrible way to train for running. I think that this quite laterally a
    "personal" problem in that I don't think my "max heart rate" fits the n-age formula. When I try to
    follow heart rate based training programs I find it requires a significant slowdown from my standard
    training. Personally I like using the SDM and training based on pace much better.

    As always, YMMV. I think HRM's work well for many people, and I like my HRM for bike training. It
    just don't work for me on the run.....

    James
     
  11. Dr. Know

    Dr. Know Guest

    It's because you don't know what you're doing. Read anything by Burke, Benson, or Edwards and you
    might learn something. Although they used different terms and different zones, they all basically
    acheive the same effect. It starts with knowing what your MAXhr is. 220-age has nothing to do with
    that. That crusty old formula is about as useful as simply guessing.

    Dr. Know

    "James Goddard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Swanger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:D[email protected]...
    > >
    > > "Harrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > Andy and Matts points are valid, but I still find my HRM very useful.
    > >
    > >
    > > I always find Andy's insights very useful but throwing away your HRM
    > may
    > > be a bit extreme.
    >
    > Personally, I find HR to be a horrible way to train for running. I think that this quite laterally
    > a "personal" problem in that I don't think my "max heart rate" fits the n-age formula. When I try
    > to follow heart rate based training programs I find it requires a significant slowdown from my
    > standard training. Personally I like using the SDM and training based on pace much better.
    >
    >
    > As always, YMMV. I think HRM's work well for many people, and I like my HRM for bike training. It
    > just don't work for me on the run.....
    >
    > James
     
  12. James Goddard <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > Personally, I find HR to be a horrible way to train for running. I think that this quite laterally
    > a "personal" problem in that I don't think my "max heart rate" fits the n-age formula. When I try
    > to follow heart rate based training programs I find it requires a significant slowdown from my
    > standard training. Personally I like using the SDM and training based on pace much better.

    This is because you're using it utterly and completely incorrectly.

    Find your REAL max heart rate. This has been discussed extensively in hundreds of threads. Peek over
    in rec.running if you want a few dozen. If you don't use the tool properly, of _course_ it's
    horrible. But properly used, they can give you some additional insight into your training.

    -Dave

    --
    work: dga - at - lcs.mit.edu me: angio - at - pobox.com MIT Laboratory for Computer Science
    http://www.angio.net/ (note that my reply-to address is vaguely despammed...) bulk emailers: I do
    not accept unsolicited email. Do not mail me.
     
  13. MJuric

    MJuric Guest

    On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 02:19:15 GMT, "Swanger" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >"Harrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >> Andy and Matts points are valid, but I still find my HRM very useful.
    >
    >
    > I always find Andy's insights very useful but throwing away your HRM may be a bit extreme.
    > Sure, there are lots of variables that cause your HRM to fluctuate, but I maintain that as long
    > as you are wearing a HRM you have a better chance at understanding such fluctuations. If you
    > don't believe that the human heart rate is an indicator of exertion then you may be of the
    > opinion that HRM's are too simple for a complex job. That's exactly why I wear one. I know
    > exactly where I can depend on a HRM for exertion accuracy and where I can't. After 12 years I
    > find that I mostly depend on HRM's for easy days under AeT. These workouts generally outnumber
    > all other workouts. Therefore, I could not throw away my HRM and still put in all the hours
    > without running the chance of wearing myself out. I did that for too many years. I also wore a
    > HRM during those years until I figured out how to use
    >it.
    >
    >Rick Swanger (use to lurk in the old timer days)
    >
    >

    I thought throwing the HR monitor away was a bit extreme also. However, as stated earlier,
    relying solely on HR is a mistake also. In my experiance beginners are well served to slave
    themselves to a HR monitor until they find out what "X"% of Max feels like and equate that
    to a pace. Over time a person can begin to rely more on Percieved effort, pace etc. I wear
    my HR nearly 100% of the time. I don't use it all the time to regulate my training just as a
    tool to see whats going on. Many times I don't even look at it until I'm done with a workout
    or race. OTOH I have one that I can downlaod to my computer. Since I'm lazy about logging my
    workouts, this make for a quick and easy log. Not to mention a pretty darn good indicator of
    what intensity and duration of a workout I'd done.

    ~Matt

    ~Matt
     
  14. Swanger

    Swanger Guest

    "James Goddard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Swanger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:D[email protected]...
    > >
    > > "Harrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > Andy and Matts points are valid, but I still find my HRM very useful.
    > >
    > >
    > > I always find Andy's insights very useful but throwing away your HRM
    > may
    > > be a bit extreme.
    >
    > Personally, I find HR to be a horrible way to train for running. I think that this quite laterally
    > a "personal" problem in that I don't think my
    "max
    > heart rate" fits the n-age formula.

    I'd be fed up with my HRM if I relied on the 220 formula as well. If all else fails you can still
    use a HRM by other means. Running at an easy to medium pace that is about two minutes slower per
    mile than your average race 10k time. You will notice what your HR is and try that number for
    aerobic training. I generally find I'm running 140 bpm at a 9 mile pace for one hour when I'm in
    moderate shape (my HR max is @ 204) As the season goes by that number drops to 8:30 or lower with
    the same average HR. I can generally tell exactly where I am fitness wise when performing these
    aerobic running workouts.

    Rick S.

    When I try to follow heart rate based
    > training programs I find it requires a significant slowdown from my
    standard
    > training. Personally I like using the SDM and training based on pace much better.
    >
    >
    > As always, YMMV. I think HRM's work well for many people, and I like my
    HRM
    > for bike training. It just don't work for me on the run.....
    >
    > James
     
  15. xraptorx

    xraptorx New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2003
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the replies guys. I figure as for now, I am just finishing 1 week of running and probably don't need to worry too much about MHR yet. Just being able to run for a solid hour, even though my pace is quite slow by your standards, is an accomplishment. Perhaps after building my endurance to where an hour of running isn't a chore, I will see my pace increase.

    Just today I started throwing in a few faster intervals midway through the hour to try to push myself. I really don't know what pace I am running at, as I just get out in the city and run through the streets, but estimate it is 5 mi/hr or close to it, based on previous times on a treadmill.

    So I won't worry so much about the HR during the next few weeks and will focus on just learning to run for 10k without stopping.

    Thanks for all the feedback. I also see I need to do a lot more reading and find out what a real training program is all about. There is so many threads out there and just as many disagreeing opinions, I guess after a few more weeks of exercise it might make sense to read a book and talk to a professional trainer or at least sit for a few days and read the various threads.

    Now to get out and enjoy the outdoors.
     
Loading...
Loading...