Cooking & Salt

blake murphy said:

Christine Dabney said:

aem said:

Most home cooks using fresh ingredients, in my observation, use too
little salt for best tasting results. And they don't use it at the
right times. They fail to salt pasta water, they fail to salt the
water for boiling potatoes, they fail to salt deep fried things
_immediately_ upon draining, they fail to salt aromatics when they
sweat them at the beginning of a recipe, they fail to salt the chicken
before they roast it, etc., etc., etc. Then they sprinkle some salt
over the dish at the end and wonder why it isn't as flavorful as it
should be. -aem

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have read too many noted chefs and food scientists lately, that have
said this. Salt doesn't just make things salty, if it is added during
the cooking: it helps expand flavors and develop them. If salted is
added at the end of cooking, food just tastes salty. And you end up
using more salt than you would if you added it during the cooking
process.

I know we have talked about this ad nauseum on rfc, but I am amazed at
folks that won't even try to test it out. It's isn't a hard
experiment. Just try cooking one of your normal dishes, and add salt
at a different point in the process. For instance, if you only salt
at the end, try adding it a bit earlier, say when sweating vegetables.
Or salt the chicken before you roast it...say a few days before. The
difference can be amazing.
It's not a difficult experiment. 😉 And you might be very surprised.

Christine

do you find that to be true when boiling potatoes? i can see it while
sweating onions, but i usually forget.

your pal,
blake

I have done it both ways and i don't see a difference, i just never use
salt, well, on popcorn and when i make a big pot of beans but other than
that i just never need salt and my food is very tasty. Most food has
salt of some amount in it. Of course back when i used to make bread i
would use standard amounts.

Now pepper, especially freshly ground black pepper i am addicted to.

Of course if i were to make french fries or onion rings i am sure i
would salt them, so also if i took it into my head to make potato or
game chips. And some of the "salted" meats are very nice but i don't
make them myself. As nice as they are i have yet to brine a chicken.

Now if i make a vinaigrette for immediate consumption i will add a pinch
of sugar just to marry flavours, if im going to serve the vinaigrette an
hour or more after i make it i don't add sugar.
--
JL

"James Silverton" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:cRbli.2054
$YH3.700@trnddc08:

Quoted message said:

OK, I have got time; a gram molecular weight of NaCl is 58.45g
(roughly 2oz and that's a lot!) and it would raise the boiling
point of 2 liters (say rather inexactly 2 quarts) of water by
about 0.5°F

"a gram molecular weight of NaCl is 58.45g" ?????

Thank god you clarify that it's "roughly 2oz and that's a lot!".

What a load of utter nonsensical [censored].

I feel like Sheldon tonite :-)

ScottR
But I don't like to feel Sheldon

Scott wrote on 12 Jul 2007 01:10:39 GMT:

??>> OK, I have got time; a gram molecular weight of NaCl is
??>> 58.45g (roughly 2oz and that's a lot!) and it would raise
??>> the boiling point of 2 liters (say rather inexactly 2
??>> quarts) of water by about 0.5°F

SR> "a gram molecular weight of NaCl is 58.45g" ?????

SR> Thank god you clarify that it's "roughly 2oz and that's a
SR> lot!".

SR> What a load of utter nonsensical [censored].

SR> I feel like Sheldon tonite :-)

I hope you are referring to Sheldon not the chemistry. It's a
bit of a pity that real units have not caught on but a gram
molecular weight, that's a molecular weight in grams of any
soluble substance, will raise the boiling point of a liter of
water by 0.58 C.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Scott Robins said:

"James Silverton" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:cRbli.2054
$YH3.700@trnddc08:

Quoted message said:

OK, I have got time; a gram molecular weight of NaCl is 58.45g
(roughly 2oz and that's a lot!) and it would raise the boiling
point of 2 liters (say rather inexactly 2 quarts) of water by
about 0.5°F

"a gram molecular weight of NaCl is 58.45g" ?????

Thank god you clarify that it's "roughly 2oz and that's a lot!".

What a load of utter nonsensical [censored].

I feel like Sheldon tonite :-)

When I saw this I thought of the jingle, "I feel like Chicken Tonight,
Chicken Tonight."

Quoted message said:

ScottR
But I don't like to feel Sheldon

--Bryan

"Bobo Bonobo®" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

When I saw this I thought of the jingle, "I feel like Chicken Tonight,
Chicken Tonight."

Quoted message said:

"Don't cook tonight, call Chicken Delight".

Peter A said:

To top it off, a lot of people, including a pitiful number of
physicians, think that anyone with high BP (or who is trying to avoid
high BP) should restrict salt. It's been known for quite a while that
dietary salt (within reasonable limits) has no effect on BP for most
people. There are a few people with salt-sensitive hypertension, but
they are the exception.

Purely hypothetical, but-

about a year ago, I was regularly testing my BP at 170 / 120. I cut my
sodium intake by more than half for 6 months, and after all that,
continued to test at the same.

Wasn't the sodium...

ewdotson said:

On Jul 11, 4:04 pm, "James Silverton" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Phil wrote on Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:01:14 -0500:

Quoted message said:

PE> Chefs add quite a bit of salt to the water to achieve this.

Quoted message said:

PE> The food being cooked does not take on a lot of this salt
PE> during the cooking process.
PE> Boiling Points of Water
PE> From the book Kitchen Science by Howard Hillman
PE> Salt: Salt, sugar, and practically any other substance
elevates
PE> the boiling point and therefore shortens cooking time. The
PE> difference in temperature between unsalted and salted water
PE> (one teaspoon of salt per quart of water) is about 1° to 2°
PE> F, a difference that can be critical in cooking situations
PE> demanding exactness.

Quoted message said:

I haven't got time today to calculate it but either you or
Howard Hillman are way out!

I wonder if he's misrembering teaspoons where it should have been
tablespoons. Doing a VERY back of the envelope calculation
(1qt~1L~1kg water, 1tbs table salt~18g~.65mol NaCL, Kb~.5 for water)
would give about a degree Fahrenheit difference. Of course, who cooks
using only a quart of water?

Gah, I got my gram molecular weight of NaCl wrong. God, I feel
stupid. Lousy neutrons. Oh well, please disregard.

🙂

--
Ernest

On Jul 11, 9:00 pm, "James Silverton" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Scott wrote on 12 Jul 2007 01:10:39 GMT:

??>> OK, I have got time; a gram molecular weight of NaCl is
??>> 58.45g (roughly 2oz and that's a lot!) and it would raise
??>> the boiling point of 2 liters (say rather inexactly 2
??>> quarts) of water by about 0.5°F

SR> "a gram molecular weight of NaCl is 58.45g" ?????

SR> Thank god you clarify that it's "roughly 2oz and that's a
SR> lot!".

SR> What a load of utter nonsensical [censored].

SR> I feel like Sheldon tonite :-)

I hope you are referring to Sheldon not the chemistry. It's a
bit of a pity that real units have not caught on but a gram
molecular weight, that's a molecular weight in grams of any
soluble substance, will raise the boiling point of a liter of
water by 0.58 C.

That's not strictly true. It depends on the van 't Hoff factor of the
substance in question. The more ions it dissociates into, the greater
the boiling point elevation per mole of said solute.

--
Ernest

ewdotson wrote on Thu, 12 Jul 2007 04:42:25 -0700:

e> On Jul 11, 9:00 pm, "James Silverton"
e> <[email hidden]> wrote:
??>> Scott wrote on 12 Jul 2007 01:10:39 GMT:
??>>
??>>>> OK, I have got time; a gram molecular weight of NaCl is
??>>>> 58.45g (roughly 2oz and that's a lot!) and it would
??>>>> raise the boiling point of 2 liters (say rather
??>>>> inexactly 2 quarts) of water by about 0.5°F
??>>
SR>>> "a gram molecular weight of NaCl is 58.45g" ?????
??>>
SR>>> Thank god you clarify that it's "roughly 2oz and that's a
SR>>> lot!".
??>>
SR>>> What a load of utter nonsensical [censored].
??>>
SR>>> I feel like Sheldon tonite :-)
??>>
??>> I hope you are referring to Sheldon not the chemistry.
??>> It's a bit of a pity that real units have not caught on
??>> but a gram molecular weight, that's a molecular weight in
??>> grams of any soluble substance, will raise the boiling
??>> point of a liter of water by 0.58 C.

e> That's not strictly true. It depends on the van 't Hoff
e> factor of the substance in question. The more ions it
e> dissociates into, the greater the boiling point elevation
e> per mole of said solute.

I could give you a dissertation on activity too but I don't
think r.f.cooking is the place for it. I was just explaining a
rough calculation in customary day-to-day units.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Jul 12, 7:00 am, "James Silverton" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

ewdotson wrote on Thu, 12 Jul 2007 04:42:25 -0700:

e> On Jul 11, 9:00 pm, "James Silverton" e> <[email hidden]> wrote:

??>> Scott wrote on 12 Jul 2007 01:10:39 GMT:
??>>
??>>>> OK, I have got time; a gram molecular weight of NaCl is
??>>>> 58.45g (roughly 2oz and that's a lot!) and it would
??>>>> raise the boiling point of 2 liters (say rather
??>>>> inexactly 2 quarts) of water by about 0.5°F
??>>
SR>>> "a gram molecular weight of NaCl is 58.45g" ?????
??>>
SR>>> Thank god you clarify that it's "roughly 2oz and that's a
SR>>> lot!".
??>>
SR>>> What a load of utter nonsensical [censored].
??>>
SR>>> I feel like Sheldon tonite :-)
??>>
??>> I hope you are referring to Sheldon not the chemistry.
??>> It's a bit of a pity that real units have not caught on
??>> but a gram molecular weight, that's a molecular weight in
??>> grams of any soluble substance, will raise the boiling
??>> point of a liter of water by 0.58 C.

e> That's not strictly true. It depends on the van 't Hoff
e> factor of the substance in question. The more ions it
e> dissociates into, the greater the boiling point elevation
e> per mole of said solute.

I could give you a dissertation on activity too but I don't
think r.f.cooking is the place for it. I was just explaining a
rough calculation in customary day-to-day units.

*shrug* I agree that this isn't the place for in-depth discussions of
chemistry, but your rough calculation would underestimate the boiling
point elevation of a mole of table salt by a factor of two. (Well,
nearly. Most places I've seen Kb for water listed as 0.52) I
wouldn't call that entirely trivial myself. As with all things
though, I suppose ymmv.

--
Ernest

In article <[email hidden]>, Peter A <[email hidden]> wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

I defy anyone to provide documented evidence that 1 or 2 degrees f make
a meaningful difference in any cooking.

For example, water at 1000 feet altitude boils at about 2 degrees
lower than at sea level. Has anyone ever seen a recipe that has
different timing for 1000 feet?

Boiled eggs. (But that's at 420 metres. ;-)

Cheers, Phred.

--
[email hidden]

Christine Dabney said:

aem said:

Most home cooks using fresh ingredients, in my observation, use too
little salt for best tasting results. And they don't use it at the
right times. They fail to salt pasta water, they fail to salt the
water for boiling potatoes, they fail to salt deep fried things
_immediately_ upon draining, they fail to salt aromatics when they
sweat them at the beginning of a recipe, they fail to salt the chicken
before they roast it, etc., etc., etc. Then they sprinkle some salt
over the dish at the end and wonder why it isn't as flavorful as it
should be. -aem

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have read too many noted chefs and food scientists lately, that have
said this. Salt doesn't just make things salty, if it is added during
the cooking: it helps expand flavors and develop them. If salted is
added at the end of cooking, food just tastes salty. And you end up
using more salt than you would if you added it during the cooking
process.

I know we have talked about this ad nauseum on rfc, but I am amazed at
folks that won't even try to test it out. It's isn't a hard
experiment. Just try cooking one of your normal dishes, and add salt
at a different point in the process. For instance, if you only salt
at the end, try adding it a bit earlier, say when sweating vegetables.
Or salt the chicken before you roast it...say a few days before. The
difference can be amazing.
It's not a difficult experiment. 😉 And you might be very surprised.

Christine

Pure BS. The only thing adding salt early will accomplish is to draw
out moisture, speeds up sweating veggies and makes for less juicy
meat... anyone who includes salt in a steak marinade is a kitchen
imbecile. Salt has no odor of it's own and does nothing to enhance
aroma, and that is mostly what's responsible for food flavor, People
don't taste their food because they live in stinky houses, and then
try to compensate with air deodorizers and appling body fragrances of
all types. That's one reason restaurants have self closing doors for
kitchens, and why no one wants the table close to the terlits.

Generally less salt will be consumed when food is salted at service
and when food is not served in an odorous venue (people who bathe and
don't douse themselves with perfume consume less salt, true). Most
folks prefer the jolt of surface salt which is why salt shakers came
to be, and why do you think pretzels and chips have surface salt
instead incorporated into the recipe... most of the salt incorporated
into food during preparation won't be detected by the taste buds,
dissolved into food it will be too weak a solution, and it won't be in
the mouth long enough anyway. Why do you think the phrase "Just shut
up and swallow". hehe

Sheldon

(Phil Evans) said:

To be honest there does appear to be 2 camps on the adding salt to
water for increasing boiling temperature.

Have been doing some surfing and some think its critical others
pooh hoo it.

There are no camps, only different IQs... those who say adding salt to
cooking water increases boiling temperature in any meaningful way have
no IQ whatsoever.

In order to increase ther boiling point of water a mere few degrees so
much salt would need to be added that it would no longer be cooking
water, it would be a very strong saturated brine solution, way too
strong even for preseving food.

Sheldon

blake murphy said:

do you find that to be true when boiling potatoes? i can see it while
sweating onions, but i usually forget.

your pal,
blake

True across the board. Tie a cravat around your head before cooking so
you won't forget to layer the salt. You'll actually use less.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Sheldon said:

Pure BS. The only thing adding salt early will accomplish is to draw
out moisture, speeds up sweating veggies and makes for less juicy
meat... anyone who includes salt in a steak marinade is a kitchen
imbecile. Salt has no odor of it's own and does nothing to enhance
aroma, and that is mostly what's responsible for food flavor, People
don't taste their food because they live in stinky houses, and then
try to compensate with air deodorizers and appling body fragrances of
all types. That's one reason restaurants have self closing doors for
kitchens, and why no one wants the table close to the terlits.

Generally less salt will be consumed when food is salted at service
and when food is not served in an odorous venue (people who bathe and
don't douse themselves with perfume consume less salt, true). Most
folks prefer the jolt of surface salt which is why salt shakers came
to be, and why do you think pretzels and chips have surface salt
instead incorporated into the recipe... most of the salt incorporated
into food during preparation won't be detected by the taste buds,
dissolved into food it will be too weak a solution, and it won't be in
the mouth long enough anyway. Why do you think the phrase "Just shut
up and swallow". hehe

Sheldon

That is the longest stretch of senseless blathering I have seen this
week. Considering that I read the political pages on at least three
countries, that's saying something.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 04:38:05 -0700, ewdotson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

ewdotson said:

On Jul 11, 4:04 pm, "James Silverton" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Phil wrote on Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:01:14 -0500:

Quoted message said:

PE> Chefs add quite a bit of salt to the water to achieve this.

Quoted message said:

PE> The food being cooked does not take on a lot of this salt
PE> during the cooking process.
PE> Boiling Points of Water
PE> From the book Kitchen Science by Howard Hillman
PE> Salt: Salt, sugar, and practically any other substance
elevates
PE> the boiling point and therefore shortens cooking time. The
PE> difference in temperature between unsalted and salted water
PE> (one teaspoon of salt per quart of water) is about 1° to 2°
PE> F, a difference that can be critical in cooking situations
PE> demanding exactness.

Quoted message said:

I haven't got time today to calculate it but either you or
Howard Hillman are way out!

I wonder if he's misrembering teaspoons where it should have been
tablespoons. Doing a VERY back of the envelope calculation
(1qt~1L~1kg water, 1tbs table salt~18g~.65mol NaCL, Kb~.5 for water)
would give about a degree Fahrenheit difference. Of course, who cooks
using only a quart of water?

Gah, I got my gram molecular weight of NaCl wrong. God, I feel
stupid. Lousy neutrons. Oh well, please disregard.

🙂

neutrons are so middle-of-the-road. at least protons are positive
about things.

your pal,
blake

Joseph Littleshoes said:

blake murphy said:

Christine Dabney said:

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:53:55 -0700, aem <[email hidden]> wrote:

>Most home cooks using fresh ingredients, in my observation, use too
>little salt for best tasting results. And they don't use it at the
>right times. They fail to salt pasta water, they fail to salt the
>water for boiling potatoes, they fail to salt deep fried things
>_immediately_ upon draining, they fail to salt aromatics when they
>sweat them at the beginning of a recipe, they fail to salt the chicken
>before they roast it, etc., etc., etc. Then they sprinkle some salt
>over the dish at the end and wonder why it isn't as flavorful as it
>should be. -aem

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have read too many noted chefs and food scientists lately, that have
said this. Salt doesn't just make things salty, if it is added during
the cooking: it helps expand flavors and develop them. If salted is
added at the end of cooking, food just tastes salty. And you end up
using more salt than you would if you added it during the cooking
process.

I know we have talked about this ad nauseum on rfc, but I am amazed at
folks that won't even try to test it out. It's isn't a hard
experiment. Just try cooking one of your normal dishes, and add salt
at a different point in the process. For instance, if you only salt
at the end, try adding it a bit earlier, say when sweating vegetables.
Or salt the chicken before you roast it...say a few days before. The
difference can be amazing.
It's not a difficult experiment. 😉 And you might be very surprised.

Christine

do you find that to be true when boiling potatoes? i can see it while
sweating onions, but i usually forget.

your pal,
blake

I have done it both ways and i don't see a difference, i just never use
salt, well, on popcorn and when i make a big pot of beans but other than
that i just never need salt and my food is very tasty. Most food has
salt of some amount in it. Of course back when i used to make bread i
would use standard amounts.

Now pepper, especially freshly ground black pepper i am addicted to.

isn't great that in the modern era, you don't have to be wealthy to
afford pepper?

your pal,
blake

Giusi said:

Sheldon said:

Pure BS. The only thing adding salt early will accomplish is to draw
out moisture, speeds up sweating veggies and makes for less juicy
meat... anyone who includes salt in a steak marinade is a kitchen
imbecile. Salt has no odor of it's own and does nothing to enhance
aroma, and that is mostly what's responsible for food flavor, People
don't taste their food because they live in stinky houses, and then
try to compensate with air deodorizers and appling body fragrances of
all types. That's one reason restaurants have self closing doors for
kitchens, and why no one wants the table close to the terlits.

Generally less salt will be consumed when food is salted at service
and when food is not served in an odorous venue (people who bathe and
don't douse themselves with perfume consume less salt, true). Most
folks prefer the jolt of surface salt which is why salt shakers came
to be, and why do you think pretzels and chips have surface salt
instead incorporated into the recipe... most of the salt incorporated
into food during preparation won't be detected by the taste buds,
dissolved into food it will be too weak a solution, and it won't be in
the mouth long enough anyway. Why do you think the phrase "Just shut
up and swallow". hehe

Sheldon

That is the longest stretch of senseless blathering I have seen this
week. Considering that I read the political pages on at least three
countries, that's saying something.

wouldn't it be great to see sheldon posting to political blogs. he'd
have several new ones torn daily.

(if he does post to them, i don't want to know.)

your pal,
blake

Julie Bove said:

"Peter A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

To top it off, a lot of people, including a pitiful number of
physicians, think that anyone with high BP (or who is trying to avoid
high BP) should restrict salt. It's been known for quite a while that
dietary salt (within reasonable limits) has no effect on BP for most
people. There are a few people with salt-sensitive hypertension, but
they are the exception.

Quite true. I believe those who respond to the low sodium diet are
something like 15%.

My father had sodium-sensitive hypertension; which is why my diet isn't
very high salt. We just learned to live with less salt.

blake murphy said:

Joseph Littleshoes said:

Now pepper, especially freshly ground black pepper i am addicted to.

isn't great that in the modern era, you don't have to be wealthy to
afford pepper?

your pal,
blake

One day i ran out of black pepper corns, and i thought to myself, so
what, no big deal its just pepper, and i made no especial effort to rush
out and get any more. By the 3rd day i was actively craving it, food
did not taste right, cottage cheese was bland, chicken was tasteless and
eggs almost unpalatable.

I went out and got a few ounces for my pepper mill and the aroma alone
was almost ambrosial, suddenly food was fulfilling again.
--
JL