Copenhagen bike lanes for Melbourne

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Dancier, Sep 1, 2005.

  1. Dancier

    Dancier New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2005
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just in from Bike Vic

    I am delighted to tell you that Melbourne will be the first city in Australia to introduce Copenhagen-style bicycle lanes.

    This groundbreaking project was announced today by Bronwyn Pike, Member for Melbourne. It involves the re-positioning of the Swanston Street bike lane between Franklin Street (City Baths) and Faraday Street (Melbourne Uni). The new bike lane will be positioned between parked cars and the kerb, vastly improving accessibility and safety for bike riders.

    In Copenhagen, the introduction of these lanes has had a massive impact on cycling, with an incredible 36% of people now commuting to work by bike.

    This project signals a new era for our on-road bicycle networks and provides bike riding opportunities for everyone. Your member power will help us get many more. Our webpage has full details: Inner: Swanston RMIT to Melbourne Uni

    Happy cycling!
     
    Tags:


  2. Dancier <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Just in from Bike Vic
    >
    > I am delighted to tell you that Melbourne will be the first city in
    > Australia to introduce Copenhagen-style bicycle lanes.
    >
    > This groundbreaking project was announced today by Bronwyn Pike, Member
    > for Melbourne. It involves the re-positioning of the Swanston Street
    > bike lane between Franklin Street (City Baths) and Faraday Street
    > (Melbourne Uni). The new bike lane will be positioned between parked
    > cars and the kerb, vastly improving accessibility and safety for bike
    > riders.
    >


    Provided they are wide enough that you can avoid car doors opening
    across the lane. Passengers, especially back seat ones are less likely
    than drivers to check behind before opening. At least with a lane to the
    right of the cars you can escape into the traffic lane, in this
    situation you'd be caught between the parked cars and the kerb.

    P

    --
    Peter McCallum
    Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA
     
  3. Resound

    Resound Guest

    "Dancier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:D[email protected]
    >
    > Just in from Bike Vic
    >
    > I am delighted to tell you that Melbourne will be the first city in
    > Australia to introduce Copenhagen-style bicycle lanes.
    >
    > This groundbreaking project was announced today by Bronwyn Pike, Member
    > for Melbourne. It involves the re-positioning of the Swanston Street
    > bike lane between Franklin Street (City Baths) and Faraday Street
    > (Melbourne Uni). The new bike lane will be positioned between parked
    > cars and the kerb, vastly improving accessibility and safety for bike
    > riders.
    >
    > In Copenhagen, the introduction of these lanes has had a massive impact
    > on cycling, with an incredible 36% of people now commuting to work by
    > bike.
    >
    > This project signals a new era for our on-road bicycle networks and
    > provides bike riding opportunities for everyone. Your member power will
    > help us get many more. Our webpage has full details: Inner: Swanston
    > RMIT to Melbourne Uni
    >
    > Happy cycling!
    >
    >
    > --
    > Dancier
    >


    So what do you do when you want to turn right? I'm rather dubious about
    being seen by motorists entering/exiting side streets as I pass said side
    streets. While not dismissing them altogether, I can't say I'm a fan of the
    segregation concept.
     
  4. Kim Hawtin

    Kim Hawtin Guest

    Resound wrote:
    > "Dancier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:D[email protected]
    >
    >>Just in from Bike Vic
    >>
    >>I am delighted to tell you that Melbourne will be the first city in
    >>Australia to introduce Copenhagen-style bicycle lanes.
    >>
    >>This groundbreaking project was announced today by Bronwyn Pike, Member
    >>for Melbourne. It involves the re-positioning of the Swanston Street
    >>bike lane between Franklin Street (City Baths) and Faraday Street
    >>(Melbourne Uni). The new bike lane will be positioned between parked
    >>cars and the kerb, vastly improving accessibility and safety for bike
    >>riders.
    >>
    >>In Copenhagen, the introduction of these lanes has had a massive impact
    >>on cycling, with an incredible 36% of people now commuting to work by
    >>bike.
    >>
    >>This project signals a new era for our on-road bicycle networks and
    >>provides bike riding opportunities for everyone. Your member power will
    >>help us get many more. Our webpage has full details: Inner: Swanston
    >>RMIT to Melbourne Uni
    >>
    >>Happy cycling!
    >>
    >>
    >>--
    >>Dancier
    >>

    >
    >
    > So what do you do when you want to turn right? I'm rather dubious about
    > being seen by motorists entering/exiting side streets as I pass said side
    > streets. While not dismissing them altogether, I can't say I'm a fan of the
    > segregation concept.


    i agree, being a visible part of the traffic is the best 'traffic calming' option =)

    so what that i'm doing 30km/h in a 50 zone? =P

    cheers,

    kim
     
  5. dewatf

    dewatf Guest

    On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:28:19 +1000, [email protected] (Peter
    McCallum) wrote:

    >Provided they are wide enough that you can avoid car doors opening
    >across the lane.


    In Europe they plenty wide enough to be safe.

    As for turning right you can always just turn left three times
    instead. or hook turn :) (it is Melbourne after all).

    If they build them properly they will be fine. They have a
    demonstrated record of increasing commuting and decreasing accidents.

    dewatf.
     
  6. SomeGuy

    SomeGuy New Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hope so. On the surface it looks like a recipe for doored cyclists and squashed pedestrians. We shall see.
     
  7. dewatf wrote:

    > If they build them properly they will be fine.


    They'll be death traps, then, on the evidence of, oh, every 'cycling
    facility' ever designed by an Australian traffic engineer since the
    beginning of time.

    Gotta love the willingness of orgs like Bike Vic to sell out our safety
    to these cretins.
     
  8. neuroinf

    neuroinf Guest

    I wonder which particular genius in VicRoads came up with the idea of
    "traffic squeezing". This is where a wide road is narrowed to a point
    where only a car can fit. It is quite common in suburban roads in
    Melbourne.

    What does this mean for bicycles? It creates a "killing field" where
    cycles are pushed together with cars with the inevitable consequence
    being that cars will push through and collide with cyclists.

    You can see the equivalent not far from Swanston St, just up St Kilda
    road. Here you will see the bike lane magically appear and disappear at
    random intervals in order to accomodate car turning lanes. Yet another
    "killing field" for cyclists.

    Having seen the bicycle lanes in Amsterdam, and the brilliant bicycle
    lanes in Cairns, I would like to take the particular genius road
    planner, and take them to tour these sites. See, moron, this is how you
    do a bicycle lane, see the bicycles have right of way. Whoever you are,
    you are a complete incurable terminal idiot who should take up another
    career right now.

    How do you do road planning? "Bicycles first". Cars come second. Always.
     
  9. dewatf <[email protected]> wrote:
    > As for turning right you can always just turn left three times
    > instead.


    that would be a U turn

    > or hook turn :) (it is Melbourne after all).


    legal anywhere in qld

    --
    Peter McCallum
    Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA
     
  10. Euan

    Euan Guest

    >>>>> "neuroinf" == neuroinf <[email protected]> writes:

    neuroinf> What does this mean for bicycles? It creates a "killing
    neuroinf> field" where cycles are pushed together with cars with the
    neuroinf> inevitable consequence being that cars will push through
    neuroinf> and collide with cyclists.

    In such situations you *must* take the lane for safety. Failure to do
    so may lead to the scenario you describe. Take the lane and it won't
    happen.

    neuroinf> You can see the equivalent not far from Swanston St, just
    neuroinf> up St Kilda road. Here you will see the bike lane
    neuroinf> magically appear and disappear at random intervals in
    neuroinf> order to accomodate car turning lanes. Yet another
    neuroinf> "killing field" for cyclists.

    Uh, right. You're not mandated to use those lanes unless it's safe to
    do so. If it's not safe ride like a vehicle.

    neuroinf> Having seen the bicycle lanes in Amsterdam, and the
    neuroinf> brilliant bicycle lanes in Cairns, I would like to take
    neuroinf> the particular genius road planner, and take them to tour
    neuroinf> these sites. See, moron, this is how you do a bicycle
    neuroinf> lane, see the bicycles have right of way. Whoever you are,
    neuroinf> you are a complete incurable terminal idiot who should
    neuroinf> take up another career right now.

    Can't disagree with that. On the other hand I wish bicycle lanes would
    just disappear all together. They are not the friend of the cyclist,
    they create more problems than they solve.
    --
    Cheers | ~~ [email protected]
    Euan | ~~ _-\<,
    Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)
     
  11. dewatf

    dewatf Guest

    On Sat, 3 Sep 2005 21:36:08 +1000, [email protected] (Peter
    McCallum) wrote:

    >dewatf <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> As for turning right you can always just turn left three times
    >> instead.

    >
    >that would be a U turn
    >
    >> or hook turn :) (it is Melbourne after all).

    >
    >legal anywhere in qld


    I believe it is legal for cyclist anywhere there is not a "no hook
    turn by bicycles" sign (never actually seen one in Sydney), after the
    nationalisation of the road rules.

    But Melbourne is the home of the Hook Turn.

    dewatf.
     
  12. dewatf

    dewatf Guest

    On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 14:38:47 GMT, Euan <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Uh, right. You're not mandated to use those lanes unless it's safe to
    >do so. If it's not safe ride like a vehicle.


    You are required to ride in the bicycle lane unless it is impractical
    to do so. I have always interpreted being dead as not very practical.

    >On the other hand I wish bicycle lanes would
    >just disappear all together. They are not the friend of the cyclist,
    >they create more problems than they solve.


    There are situations where they are good, especially for slower
    cyclists.

    They are a lot of bad bicycle laneswhere it would have been better not
    to have bothered. There is a 6 inch bicycle lane through a narrow
    roundabout near where I live. You would have to be insane to use it.
    Drivers in a roundabout are already looking in 3 different direction
    at once and not for cyclists, and they always cut into the lane.

    dewatf.
     
  13. Euan

    Euan Guest

    >>>>> "dewatf" == dewatf <[email protected]> writes:

    >> On the other hand I wish bicycle lanes would just disappear all
    >> together. They are not the friend of the cyclist, they create
    >> more problems than they solve.


    dewatf> There are situations where they are good, especially for
    dewatf> slower cyclists.

    I don't agree, at best I'm travelling at slightly more than half the
    posted speed limit of the road. Do you think that a motorist is going
    to notice much difference between me and someone who's riding at a third
    of the posted speed limit? To the motorist we're one thing: slower than
    them.

    The only lanes I've found of any use are the narrow ``advisory'' ones
    which keep cars out of the gutter in congestion. Every other bike lane
    I've used causes me more problems than they solve.

    Examples:

    Canterbury Road and St Kilda Road; cunningly designed so that if you
    cycle in the middle of the lane you're smack in the door zone. Also
    great place to meet bogan droppings.

    Westall Road Extension: lanes turning in to service roads, encouraging
    dangerous cycling behaviour, this behaviour being constantly rejoining
    main road and using roads with many more uncontrolled intersections than
    the main road (driveways).

    Westall Road Extension (bridge), great place for finding all the crap on
    the roads because there's not enough traffic to disperse it.

    If you know of a good cycle lane in Melbourne with no drawbacks to the
    cyclist, please enlighten me.
    --
    Cheers | ~~ [email protected]
    Euan | ~~ _-\<,
    Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)
     
  14. LotteBum

    LotteBum New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,138
    Likes Received:
    1
    I think it's time to whining about facilities for cyclists in Australia and start whining about the lack of driving ability displayed by 90% of drivers here.

    If people could drive, and actually knew - and respected - the road rules, we wouldn't need bike lanes or bike paths.

    Lotte
     
  15. flyingdutch

    flyingdutch New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2004
    Messages:
    5,700
    Likes Received:
    0
    you ARE kidding right? come back un-grumpy scotsman :p


    'no drawbacks' is a bit of a stretch. Lotte has a good point about improving the biggest factor, of driver's perspectives/attitudes tho. no amount of paint can fix that but a growing presence of markings and the follow on of 'more cyclists cycling more often' will also have a big input on that.

    on a slight tangent, as much as i lurv watching people whine about petrol prices I just hope they stay that way or higher thru this coming spring summer! Commuting into town is gonna be slightly NUTS (in the best possible way tho) :D:D:D:D
     
  16. Gemma_k

    Gemma_k Guest

    "dewatf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:28:19 +1000, [email protected] (Peter
    > McCallum) wrote:
    >
    > If they build them properly they will be fine. They have a
    > demonstrated record of increasing commuting and decreasing accidents.
    >

    Demonstrated? Prove it :)
     
  17. EuanB

    EuanB New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Messages:
    877
    Likes Received:
    0
    I like them because I'm not expected to use them. At the same time most motorists stay out of them which makes filtering to the front a bit easier

    Yeah, driver skill really is key.

    I know at least two people who have gotten back on the bike on the back of the fuel rises. Was quietly listening in on a conversation in the lunch room about the impact of the fuel rises thinking that opening my mouth about the benefits of cycling might be rubbing salt in to the wounds a bit ;-)
     
  18. dewatf

    dewatf Guest

    On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 07:30:34 GMT, Euan <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I don't agree, at best I'm travelling at slightly more than half the
    >posted speed limit of the road. Do you think that a motorist is going
    >to notice much difference between me and someone who's riding at a third
    >of the posted speed limit? To the motorist we're one thing: slower than
    >them.


    Not so, an experienced cyclist who rides 25+ km/h is able to merge in
    traffic, take off quickly and cars have a lot more time to merge
    around them etc.

    A less experienced cyclist riding at 10-15 km/h, and 5km/h up hills,
    is not able to ride with the traffic. Both the cyclist and the
    motorists are going to have to stop when encountering each other and
    need to merge, and once you do that neither the cyclist or car can
    merge with traffic and you have an obstruction.

    What's more at 10-15lkm/h drivers are woeful at judging what a cycle
    is doing and where they are going to be, they aren't use such slow
    vehicles while they are used to cars driving at 25-30km/h through
    roundabouts etc.

    It leads to drivers going all out taking risks to avoid ever being
    trapped behind a cyclist. Including the moron who decided to try and
    overtake me on a curved narrow railway bridge over double yellow lines
    and almost caused a serious accident last Friday. If cars aren't
    trapped behing cyclists for long periods of time they are much better
    behaved.

    >The only lanes I've found of any use are the narrow ``advisory'' ones
    >which keep cars out of the gutter in congestion. Every other bike lane
    >I've used causes me more problems than they solve.
    >
    >Examples:


    I don't agree that most of cycle lanes are not good for experienced
    cyclists. That doesn't mean that there aren't situations where they
    can be done well.

    Sydney is even worse than Melbourne. It is better to ride on the major
    3 lane roads than the cyclesways or secondary road, that is where they
    are 3 lane, not where they are full of left turn lanes, S lanes and
    windy up hill 2 lanes sections.

    >Canterbury Road and St Kilda Road; cunningly designed so that if you
    >cycle in the middle of the lane you're smack in the door zone. Also
    >great place to meet bogan droppings.


    Yep. Dooring now accounts for upto 40% of injuries to cylists. Cycle
    lanes through shopping areas with parking on the side of the road are
    not good.

    While is why in Copenhage they built wide cycle lanes on kerbside of
    parked cars. Which is what is being proposed for Swanson St.

    >Westall Road Extension: lanes turning in to service roads, encouraging
    >dangerous cycling behaviour, this behaviour being constantly rejoining
    >main road and using roads with many more uncontrolled intersections than
    >the main road (driveways).
    >
    >Westall Road Extension (bridge), great place for finding all the crap on
    >the roads because there's not enough traffic to disperse it.
    >
    >If you know of a good cycle lane in Melbourne with no drawbacks to the
    >cyclist, please enlighten me.


    I don't know Melbourne well.

    There is a good cycle lane on the road into my suburb in Sydney.

    There is not much a problem with parked cars since it is a residential
    road there aren't people getting in and out of cars all the time and
    visibility is good. The lane provides a good place to ride while a
    line to keeping cars over on the right, before they used to travel on
    the left forcing you over and having to merge in and out around the
    parked cars with them flying out wide to scoot past you.

    dewatf.
     
  19. EuanB

    EuanB New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Messages:
    877
    Likes Received:
    0
    A couple of weeks ago I carried out an experiment. I kept my speed below 20km/h for the whole commute to work.
    It's a 28km route through Center Dandenong Road, Nepean Highway, St Kilda Road and then a rat run through the CBD.
    Center Dandenong Road is a 60/70km/h 4 lane (2 each way) undivided road which mandates lane claiming for large stretches. Nepean is a 80km/h 6 lane divided road with a wide left shoulder. St Kilda Road is a four lane divided 60km/h road with an on-road bike lane.

    I didn't notice any change in driver behaviour, nor did I have trouble moving to the right for my right turns etc. The key is proper position on the road, not the speed of travel.

    You're laying the blame for the driver's selfish actions at the door of cyclists. Why? The driver's the one who made the choice to take the risk, not any random cyclist who's ``gotten in his way'' in the past. Out of interest what speed were you travelling at at the time? If it's 25km/h plus then I suggest that refutes what you are saying.

    Huh? You're saying that having passenger side opening their doors in to the path of cyclists is better than having the driver do it? I don't follow your logic.

    How are the cars forcing you to cycle near the left? They're behind you. If they want to get past you they're going to have to go around you. Believe it or not drivers don't want to hit you, you might scratch their paintwork ;-)

    Ride wide. You do yourself no favors by subissively cycling to the left of the lane.

    1) You're less visible.

    2) You have nowhere to go if you are squeezed.

    3) You send the message to drivers that you are afraid of them and are only there at their sufferance.

    All the above is countered by riding wide. That means riding a meter out from the kerb or parked cars, if the lane's too narrow for a car to safely occupy with you in it, ride to a width where the car has no choice but to use the other lane.

    Riding wide, you may get tooted now and again. The correct response is to ignore them. Smile and nod at them when they do get past, as they undoubtedly will. Communicate to them that you're having a great time getting to where you're going and not the least bit bothered by their impotent tooting.

    The slightly cheekier response, and not one I'd advise, is to ride even wider.
     
  20. On 2005-09-05, EuanB <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Riding wide, you may get tooted now and again. The correct response is
    > to ignore them. Smile and nod at them when they do get past, as they
    > undoubtedly will. Communicate to them that you're having a great time
    > getting to where you're going and not the least bit bothered by their
    > impotent tooting.
    >
    > The slightly cheekier response, and not one I'd advise, is to ride even
    > wider.


    Funnily enough, as part of my morning commute, there's one point where I
    deliberately ride in the rightmost part of the *right* lane, in a road
    with one lane in both directions, plus a marked bike lane ("right" lane,
    therefore, means the lane that cars normally occupy.)

    Why? Because I'm making a right turn into another street, and doing it
    any other way invites trouble when a car passes me just when I need to
    move over. I leave enough room on my left for cars to pass me, and it
    should be blindingly obvious to anybody with half a brain exactly where
    I intend to go. Into the slip lane for the turn, brakes on, and there
    are no hassles whatsoever.

    Give them no opportunity to doubt what you're doing, is my motto.

    --
    My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
    the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".
     
Loading...
Loading...