Cornering - how?

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by hippy, Nov 17, 2003.

  1. hippy

    hippy Guest

    How do you guys corner on fast descents?

    Is your body on the same vertical axis as the
    bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike
    into the corner and keep you body more upright?
    Or maybe even lean your body and keep the
    bike upright (strange?).

    I seem to constantly understeer and run wide
    on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering
    if my technique needs some work...

    hippy
     
    Tags:


  2. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    hippy:

    > How do you guys corner on fast descents?
    >
    > Is your body on the same vertical axis as the
    > bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike
    > into the corner and keep you body more upright?
    > Or maybe even lean your body and keep the
    > bike upright (strange?).


    > I seem to constantly understeer and run wide
    > on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering
    > if my technique needs some work...


    The nature of the surface, the tyres, and your speed are the factors to
    consider, obviously. A lot of the time though it's fear of skidding
    which keeps people from taking a turn in the sharpest and quickest way;
    having skidded a few times by taking some turns too fast, I'm a little
    more cautious these days and it now takes effort to get over the mental
    barrier that screams "You're going too fast, fool!".

    Only experience can enable you to judge turns you encounter. I've seen
    some cyclists stick their knees out on the inside of a turn, like
    motorcyclists do on the track, perhaps thinking to lower their CG; I
    think it's unnecessary and can only add a scraped kneecap to their list
    of injuries should they skid. Round cross-section tyres will also fare
    better in sharp turns; many MTB tyres don't have this.
     
  3. hippy

    hippy Guest

    "Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > The nature of the surface, the tyres, and your speed are the factors

    to
    > consider, obviously. A lot of the time though it's fear of skidding
    > which keeps people from taking a turn in the sharpest and quickest

    way;
    > having skidded a few times by taking some turns too fast, I'm a little
    > more cautious these days and it now takes effort to get over the

    mental
    > barrier that screams "You're going too fast, fool!".


    So, exactly "what to lean" is more a matter of each corner's character
    than a catch-all "always lean bike AND rider" or "lean bike NOT rider"?

    hippy
     
  4. "hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:%[email protected]
    > How do you guys corner on fast descents?
    >
    > Is your body on the same vertical axis as the
    > bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike
    > into the corner and keep you body more upright?
    > Or maybe even lean your body and keep the
    > bike upright (strange?).
    >
    > I seem to constantly understeer and run wide
    > on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering
    > if my technique needs some work...
    >
    > hippy
    >
    >


    Hey hippy.....

    Hutchinson Mosquitos......'nuff said!
     
  5. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    hippy:

    > "Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > The nature of the surface, the tyres, and your speed are the factors

    > to
    > > consider, obviously. A lot of the time though it's fear of skidding
    > > which keeps people from taking a turn in the sharpest and quickest

    > way;
    > > having skidded a few times by taking some turns too fast, I'm a little
    > > more cautious these days and it now takes effort to get over the

    > mental
    > > barrier that screams "You're going too fast, fool!".

    >
    > So, exactly "what to lean" is more a matter of each corner's character
    > than a catch-all "always lean bike AND rider" or "lean bike NOT rider"?
    >


    You must always lean into the turn to have the desired effect on your
    steering; ask tandem riders if one of them had ever tried to counter the
    lean on a turn while the other didn't, and they will tell you that it
    always throws the steering off.

    It wouldn't be possible to lean a bike while keeping yourself upright on
    a reasonably fast turn. Part of your weight will counteract the
    steering because the force vector acting through the CG of the
    rider/bike system will not be lined up with the tyres. The effect is
    that you will be trying to pull the bike upright while turning,
    straightening the front wheel. Going the other way, that is, trying to
    keep the bike upright while leaning yourself will also not work because
    a bike initiates turns by leaning; you won't be able to turn at speed if
    the bike does not lean.

    How much to lean to achieve the sharpest turn is dictated by your speed
    and traction; this is where experience helps judgement and overcoming
    fear.
     
  6. hippy

    hippy Guest

    "Bob Incognito"
    <[email protected]> wrote in
    message news:[email protected]
    > Hey hippy.....
    >
    > Hutchinson Mosquitos......'nuff said!


    I was thinking about road bikes, but...

    What are these tyres suited to? I need
    some new XC tyres for the 24hr (If
    we get organised!).

    These are UST though I think, do they
    have a non-UST brother?

    hippy
     
  7. hippy

    hippy Guest

    "Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > It wouldn't be possible to lean a bike while keeping yourself upright

    on
    > a reasonably fast turn. Part of your weight will counteract the
    > steering because the force vector acting through the CG of the
    > rider/bike system will not be lined up with the tyres. The effect is


    I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared"
    that I could turn sharper if I tried to "push" the bike down
    without leaning with it.
    My normal turn style (geddit turnstyle?! yeesh! :p) involves
    leaning with the bike. The modified way, which seemed faster
    didn't seem to have me leaning as far over into the corner.
    I'm not sure if it was faster or how I did it, exactly, but you
    think I should just lean with the bike?
    I don't really like the idea of crossing onto the wrong side
    of the road at 70kph.. practise makes perfect I guess...I
    wish I could judge corners better, damnit!

    hippy
     
  8. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    hippy:

    > "Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > It wouldn't be possible to lean a bike while keeping yourself upright

    > on
    > > a reasonably fast turn. Part of your weight will counteract the
    > > steering because the force vector acting through the CG of the
    > > rider/bike system will not be lined up with the tyres. The effect is

    >
    > I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared"
    > that I could turn sharper if I tried to "push" the bike down
    > without leaning with it.


    I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?
     
  9. Duncan

    Duncan Guest

    "hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<%[email protected]>...
    > How do you guys corner on fast descents?
    >
    > Is your body on the same vertical axis as the
    > bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike
    > into the corner and keep you body more upright?
    > Or maybe even lean your body and keep the
    > bike upright (strange?).


    On the road (motorbike and pushie) I lean my body to the inside of the
    corner. This is because it reduces the amount the bike has to lean
    and keeps the steering geometry and suspension (active or passive) in
    it's best position.
    It's much easier to do this if you can guarantee good surface and
    don't have to worry about line changes.

    Off road I have a tendancy to keep my body upright and lean the bike.
    This is mainly so I can repsond quicker to bumps or line changes, the
    bike shifts quicker than I can.

    > I seem to constantly understeer and run wide
    > on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering
    > if my technique needs some work...


    I found from motorcycling that a good firm countersteering input to
    keep the bike/body leaned over will cure the understeering, although
    don't go too far or you'll lowside.
     
  10. stu

    stu Guest

    "hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:%[email protected]
    > How do you guys corner on fast descents?
    >
    > Is your body on the same vertical axis as the
    > bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike
    > into the corner and keep you body more upright?
    > Or maybe even lean your body and keep the
    > bike upright (strange?).
    >
    > I seem to constantly understeer and run wide
    > on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering
    > if my technique needs some work...
    >
    > hippy
    >
    >

    from De Long's guide to bicycles and bicycling
    Lean in or out on turns??
    Pressing the handlebars down in the direction you want to turn starts the
    bank,
    and the gyroscopic action then turns the wheel in the proper direction to
    give
    maximum turning capability. In the case of a back wheel slide, you will be
    able
    to correct the increase in bank by pulling the bicycle in line with your
    body. If,
    on the other hand, you want to maintain full power during a trun, leaning in
    well
    decrease the chance of your pedals striking the ground.

    you could also try a little rear brake, that turns you more(just dont lock
    the rear,
    that turns you a lot. lol)
    front brake makes the bike not want to turn(are you using front brake while
    in
    the turn? that would explain the understeer and running wide)
     
  11. hippy

    hippy Guest

    "Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > > I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared"
    > > that I could turn sharper if I tried to "push" the bike down
    > > without leaning with it.

    >
    > I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?


    From 30kph to 50kph? Maybe more.. coming down
    from the Dandenongs and a crit race.

    What I mean is:
    Say I'm turning around a left-hander, I would usually lean
    my body AND my bike left at the same angle. i.e. my
    body goes from | to \ and the bike goes from | to \.
    Body and bike on the same lean angle.

    What I was messing with was trying to lean the bike
    to the left but resisting this lean with my body. So, my
    body would not lean as far left as my bike.

    Bike leans from | to \
    Body doesn't lean | stays |

    It's probably not _that_ pronounced but it just seems like
    the bike leans into the corner but my body doesn't.

    hippy
     
  12. somehow this ended up under the leg shaving thread, so reposting...



    I used to lean the body, but having some confidence issues on my new bike,
    and don't lean as far as I used to...

    Mostly I'm chickening out more, but then again, these days I know it will
    hurt more...

    I think it largely depends on how sticky your tyres are... I am running
    Michelin Pro-Race rubber at the moment, and when hot, they are sticky as
    hell, but when cold, and/or wet, they are slippery as all buggery...

    I have heard that the Vittoria Rubina Pro's (from the guy at the shop, when
    I was talking to him earlier today) are a lot better in the wet than the
    Michelins...

    I think that a compact frame (if you're on one) makes it that little bit
    harder to corner fast, due to the small rear triangle... My old bikes
    (Gitane Allure - circa 1982) and Avanti Corsa (1998) were a lot faster on
    corners, but neither were compacts...


    "hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:%[email protected]
    > How do you guys corner on fast descents?
    >
    > Is your body on the same vertical axis as the
    > bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike
    > into the corner and keep you body more upright?
    > Or maybe even lean your body and keep the
    > bike upright (strange?).
    >
    > I seem to constantly understeer and run wide
    > on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering
    > if my technique needs some work...
    >
    > hippy
    >
    >
     
  13. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    Andrew Morris:

    > I think that a compact frame (if you're on one) makes it that little bit
    > harder to corner fast, due to the small rear triangle... My old bikes
    > (Gitane Allure - circa 1982) and Avanti Corsa (1998) were a lot faster on
    > corners, but neither were compacts...


    That's not what hyper-marketers will have you believe though. The drive
    for manufacturers to churn out smaller frames with the shortest
    chainstays possible has been all about claims of faster cornering and
    greater maneouverability. I don't think there's merit to it.
     
  14. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    hippy:

    > "Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > > I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared"
    > > > that I could turn sharper if I tried to "push" the bike down
    > > > without leaning with it.

    > >
    > > I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?

    >
    > From 30kph to 50kph? Maybe more.. coming down
    > from the Dandenongs and a crit race.
    >
    > What I mean is:
    > Say I'm turning around a left-hander, I would usually lean
    > my body AND my bike left at the same angle. i.e. my
    > body goes from | to \ and the bike goes from | to \.
    > Body and bike on the same lean angle.
    >
    > What I was messing with was trying to lean the bike
    > to the left but resisting this lean with my body. So, my
    > body would not lean as far left as my bike.
    >
    > Bike leans from | to \
    > Body doesn't lean | stays |
    >
    > It's probably not _that_ pronounced but it just seems like
    > the bike leans into the corner but my body doesn't.
    >


    I think that if you were doing this to any significant extent, you will
    feel the bike straightening up, resulting in a wider turn, or you will
    encounter problems with the balancing act: while on the turn, with the
    bike leaning into the turn, you'll have to lean the bike a little more
    if you try to get your body upright to compensate for the shift in CG,
    and might throw off your steering.

    I haven't tried doing this on tight corners though; get a friend to look
    at your body angle next time you attempt it.
     
  15. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    stu:


    > from De Long's guide to bicycles and bicycling
    > Lean in or out on turns??
    > Pressing the handlebars down in the direction you want to turn starts the
    > bank,
    > and the gyroscopic action then turns the wheel in the proper direction to
    > give
    > maximum turning capability. In the case of a back wheel slide, you will be
    > able
    > to correct the increase in bank by pulling the bicycle in line with your
    > body. If,
    > on the other hand, you want to maintain full power during a trun, leaning in
    > well
    > decrease the chance of your pedals striking the ground.
    >
    > you could also try a little rear brake, that turns you more(just dont lock
    > the rear,
    > that turns you a lot. lol)
    > front brake makes the bike not want to turn(are you using front brake while
    > in
    > the turn? that would explain the understeer and running wide)
    >


    This reads like a lot of crap. Turning requires leaning the bike first
    before doing anything to the handlebars. The rider moves the handlebar
    and controls the lean to determine the turn radius; I don't see how
    gyroscopic action of the wheels even figure into it.

    Braking either front or rear wheel shortens the turn radius simply by
    slowing you down.
     
  16. DRS

    DRS Guest

    Jose Rizal <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    [email protected]
    > stu:
    >
    >> from De Long's guide to bicycles and bicycling
    >> Lean in or out on turns??
    >> Pressing the handlebars down in the direction you want to turn
    >> starts the bank,
    >> and the gyroscopic action then turns the wheel in the proper
    >> direction to give
    >> maximum turning capability. In the case of a back wheel slide, you
    >> will be able
    >> to correct the increase in bank by pulling the bicycle in line with
    >> your body. If,
    >> on the other hand, you want to maintain full power during a trun,
    >> leaning in well
    >> decrease the chance of your pedals striking the ground.
    >>
    >> you could also try a little rear brake, that turns you more(just
    >> dont lock the rear,
    >> that turns you a lot. lol)
    >> front brake makes the bike not want to turn(are you using front
    >> brake while in
    >> the turn? that would explain the understeer and running wide)

    >
    > This reads like a lot of crap. Turning requires leaning the bike
    > first before doing anything to the handlebars. The rider moves the


    No, it doesn't. The moment you push on the handlebars on the side of the
    direction in which you want to go (ie, push on the left side of the bars to
    go left) the bike will tilt and start to turn left. This is called
    counter-steering.

    > handlebar and controls the lean to determine the turn radius; I don't
    > see how gyroscopic action of the wheels even figure into it.


    Essentially, any turn of this nature is a process of the bike continuously
    "falling" into the corner. The gyroscopic action of the wheels is what
    keeps it from actually falling onto the ground.

    > Braking either front or rear wheel shortens the turn radius simply by
    > slowing you down.


    You should always try to never brake in a corner, always before. You
    probably have more leeway with a bike because it's so light but it's
    inherently bad technique.

    --

    A: Top-posters.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?
     
  17. Jose Rizal

    Jose Rizal Guest

    DRS:

    > > handlebar and controls the lean to determine the turn radius; I don't
    > > see how gyroscopic action of the wheels even figure into it.

    >
    > Essentially, any turn of this nature is a process of the bike continuously
    > "falling" into the corner. The gyroscopic action of the wheels is what
    > keeps it from actually falling onto the ground.


    No, the momentum of the rider/bike, counteracted by the traction of the
    tyres is what keeps the rider from falling over. This is why the faster
    the turn is taken, the greater the lean required. If what you say is
    true, then one can take a turn at a set lean angle regardless of speed.
    This is clearly not true.
     
  18. Philip

    Philip Guest

    The way to maintain the turn is to counter steer.

    Say you are going round a left hander

    You start to lean left (into the bend) and stear to the right. The bike
    drops into
    the bend, the handle bars staighten and round you go!

    This works great on a motorcycle. On a push bike you need to keep you weight
    above the bikes
    bottom bracket to maintain the grip. i.e you lean the bike more than the
    body!

    Stange but ture!

    Cheers,

    Philip






    "Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > hippy:
    >
    > > "Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > > > > I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared"
    > > > > that I could turn sharper if I tried to "push" the bike down
    > > > > without leaning with it.
    > > >
    > > > I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?

    > >
    > > From 30kph to 50kph? Maybe more.. coming down
    > > from the Dandenongs and a crit race.
    > >
    > > What I mean is:
    > > Say I'm turning around a left-hander, I would usually lean
    > > my body AND my bike left at the same angle. i.e. my
    > > body goes from | to \ and the bike goes from | to \.
    > > Body and bike on the same lean angle.
    > >
    > > What I was messing with was trying to lean the bike
    > > to the left but resisting this lean with my body. So, my
    > > body would not lean as far left as my bike.
    > >
    > > Bike leans from | to \
    > > Body doesn't lean | stays |
    > >
    > > It's probably not _that_ pronounced but it just seems like
    > > the bike leans into the corner but my body doesn't.
    > >

    >
    > I think that if you were doing this to any significant extent, you will
    > feel the bike straightening up, resulting in a wider turn, or you will
    > encounter problems with the balancing act: while on the turn, with the
    > bike leaning into the turn, you'll have to lean the bike a little more
    > if you try to get your body upright to compensate for the shift in CG,
    > and might throw off your steering.
    >
    > I haven't tried doing this on tight corners though; get a friend to look
    > at your body angle next time you attempt it.
     
  19. agamlen

    agamlen Guest

    It works on a motorcycle because the mass of the motorcycle is greater
    than the rider. This method is ok on an mtb at very very slow speeds to
    turn around (180 degrees) without much room.


    Philip wrote:
    > The way to maintain the turn is to counter steer.
    >
    > Say you are going round a left hander
    >
    > You start to lean left (into the bend) and stear to the right. The bike
    > drops into
    > the bend, the handle bars staighten and round you go!
    >
    > This works great on a motorcycle. On a push bike you need to keep you weight
    > above the bikes
    > bottom bracket to maintain the grip. i.e you lean the bike more than the
    > body!
    >
    > Stange but ture!
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Philip
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>hippy:
    >>
    >>
    >>>"Jose Rizal" <[email protected]_._> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email protected]
    >>>
    >>>>>I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared"
    >>>>>that I could turn sharper if I tried to "push" the bike down
    >>>>>without leaning with it.
    >>>>
    >>>>I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?
    >>>
    >>>From 30kph to 50kph? Maybe more.. coming down
    >>>from the Dandenongs and a crit race.
    >>>
    >>>What I mean is:
    >>>Say I'm turning around a left-hander, I would usually lean
    >>>my body AND my bike left at the same angle. i.e. my
    >>>body goes from | to \ and the bike goes from | to \.
    >>>Body and bike on the same lean angle.
    >>>
    >>>What I was messing with was trying to lean the bike
    >>>to the left but resisting this lean with my body. So, my
    >>>body would not lean as far left as my bike.
    >>>
    >>>Bike leans from | to \
    >>>Body doesn't lean | stays |
    >>>
    >>>It's probably not _that_ pronounced but it just seems like
    >>>the bike leans into the corner but my body doesn't.
    >>>

    >>
    >>I think that if you were doing this to any significant extent, you will
    >>feel the bike straightening up, resulting in a wider turn, or you will
    >>encounter problems with the balancing act: while on the turn, with the
    >>bike leaning into the turn, you'll have to lean the bike a little more
    >>if you try to get your body upright to compensate for the shift in CG,
    >>and might throw off your steering.
    >>
    >>I haven't tried doing this on tight corners though; get a friend to look
    >>at your body angle next time you attempt it.

    >
    >
    >
     
  20. hippy <[email protected]> wrote:

    : I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared"
    : that I could turn sharper if I tried to "push" the bike down
    : without leaning with it.
    : My normal turn style (geddit turnstyle?! yeesh! :p) involves
    : leaning with the bike. The modified way, which seemed faster
    : didn't seem to have me leaning as far over into the corner.
    : I'm not sure if it was faster or how I did it, exactly, but you
    : think I should just lean with the bike?
    : I don't really like the idea of crossing onto the wrong side
    : of the road at 70kph.. practise makes perfect I guess...I
    : wish I could judge corners better, damnit!


    From my motorbike racing days of old, it certainly was faster and
    felt right to hang off the inside of the bike and keep it relatively
    vertical through a corner.

    Dynamics are obviously different on a bicycle, but it still
    feels better to hang somewhat off the bike. I don't like the
    idea of negotiating a flat-out downhill on the side of a bicycle
    tyre. Either way, any corner is taken both by the bike and you,
    so it makes sense to have that frame of mind when hurtling into
    one. In other words, you need to learn, by experimenting with
    body position, lines, etc, how you and the bike are most balanced.

    Vector analysis will certainly show the forces involved but no amount
    of 'theory' can inform one's body without the real life experience.

    It seemed pretty obvious that the people who could get around
    corners fastest on a racing motorcycle were the ones with the
    least fear of injury or death. And, yes, they did eventually
    crash. The point being that the only way of knowing the limit
    of corner speed is to exceed it then subsequently go slightly
    slower than that.

    Cheerz,
    Lynzz
     
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