Corrosion on chain and gears no matter how much I wash/wipe it down?



Volnix

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Feb 19, 2011
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Well, putting the "soul" of things aside, they are both horribly overpriced (Shimano, Campagnolo and SRAM).

400euro for a single shifter is just wrong. It's just a cable pulley with a gear and a locking mechanism for the indexing.

and then there are the "electronic" units, where even the one complication in the mechanism, the operation of brakes and shifting with one lever, is absent, which are actually 500euro brake levers with a light-switch jammed into them.
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But for their simpler series the Veloce and Centaur maybe have some more value then a Sora or 2300. They are 10 speed too, not 8 or 9.


At some point the notch where the cable barrel secures on the lever on the 2300 shifter broke. (The cable was stuck and the lever broke before the cable?
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) There was only one part available and that was the whole "Front Assembly" which costed 40 euro? (Basically everything except the clamp that attaches the shifter on the handlebar). The whole shifter costs 50 euro.


At least Campagnolo has every single part available even in the simpler series like Veloce and Centaur, buuut the dealers here dont support them that well.

Shimano is found in almost (if not) all bike shops around here.

Thinking of why that is, it's probably because they have a bigger profit margin, not because they are "better" in any way. Also since Campagnolo is not so well represented by the dealers it's hard to get parts.

With a pair of Veloce shifters the above problem would be probably just a 20 euro repair. The only series that you can get just a lever in Shimano, is from 105 onwards, (if not Ultegra) where just the lever would cost 100 euro anyway.
 

CAMPYBOB

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Campy is a great value in cycling components.

They are well supported with spares, eminently rebuildable as needed, have the best function and best looks of all.

For under three grand you can get the very best group in cycling, Super Record EPS.

Sure, loons will whine about $3K...and then go out and blow $5K on some Chicom carbon frame with a boutique decal on it. Or put $10K into a weekend car motor. Insanity. It's the very definition of it.
 

Volnix

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Feb 19, 2011
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Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB
For under three grand you can get the very best group in cycling, Super Record EPS.

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I'll make you a group better then Campagnolo SR EPS...

Get me that CNC mill and that 3D printer.

Those Titanium blocks, Servos and Circuit Boards too.


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swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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CAMPYBOB said:
shitmaNO didn't invent ****. All they did was make craptastic copies and incorporate an extra measure of FAIL. Campy was building dual-actuation electric and mechanical systems back in 1992...the era of Mavic's ZAP and Mechtronic systems. These were 8-speed units and were used by professional teams. Leonard Zinn states a few basics: Short history of Campagnolo electronic shift Giuseppe Dal Pra, the manager for groupsets, has worked on the Campagnolo electronic-shift project for 20 years — since 1992. The eight-speed Campy electric rear derailleur had both an electrical wire connected to a servo motor, and a shift cable.
At the time, Mavic was up and running with its electric rear derailleur, and Campagnolo’s system started as an electro-mechanical one, relying both on cable pull and electric impulse. That method gave way to fully electronic systems with servo motors in each derailleur. To also illustrate how long this has been, consider that the first Campy electric systems were in the era of eight-speed cogsets! Campagnolo also built nine-speed, 10-speed, and, now, 11-speed electric derailleurs. Many of them were tested and raced upon by the various iterations of the Spanish Reynolds team (Banesto, iBanesto.com, Illes Balears-Banesto, Illes Balears-Caisse d’Epargne, Caisse d’Epargne-Illes Balears, Caisse d’Epargne, and, now, Movistar). An interesting turn of events happened that changed the order of which company introduced electronic shifting to the market first. Campagnolo’s 10-speed electronic shift components were ready for the market in 2005, and it planned to introduce them. However, after a successful Giro d’Italia campaign with Illes Balears-Caisse d’Epargne, a number of the bikes failed to shift after being driven to Trento in driving rain at 150kph. The system worked after it was dried out again, but this is exactly the kind of thing that keeps electronic-shift engineers awake at night. This snafu stopped the progress dead in its tracks, as the company had other fish to fry and could not afford to devote resources to this project at the expense of its core business. It continued to work on the system, but slowly. In 2009, Campagnolo introduced 11-speed drivetrains at a number of price levels, so all of that changeover, performed in secret, required the undivided attention of Dal Pra and other engineers. Read more at [COLOR=003399]http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/11/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/lennard-zinn-the-20-year-history-of-campagnolo-electronic-power-shift-eps_198080#Os5URDToULrm4cGr.99[/COLOR] Early 9-speed front derailleur: A 9-speed rear derailleur...still far better looking than a shitmaNO 11-speed unit: 10-speed group that was almost made commercially available in 2005: Early Movistar 11-speed from Campy tech lab: Oh...and shitmaNO didn't invent index shifting. Suntour-Maeda did. And even that was just a derivative of two earlier systems from the USA and Germany. God bless Campagnolo!
So basically you're saying it didn't work. We all knew that. More proof that modern Campag riders are fair weathered pansies.
 

Volnix

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Feb 19, 2011
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You can put a dozen used school girl panties in that!
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and these are the TT version!!!
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swampy1970

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Volnix said:
[COLOR=0000CD]You can put a dozen used school girl panties in that! :big-smile: [/COLOR] [COLOR=0000CD]and these are the TT version!!! :big-smile:  [/COLOR]
Whoever soldered that needs to be poked in the eye with a red hold soldering iron. Drunken monkeys should be able to solder better than that and off that description that means that the piece in question is something made by someone Italian. Electronics, not their strong suit....
 

jpr95

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Oct 11, 2010
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Originally Posted by swampy1970


Whoever soldered that needs to be poked in the eye with a red hold soldering iron.

Drunken monkeys should be able to solder better than that and off that description that means that the piece in question is something made by someone Italian. Electronics, not their strong suit....
They should have contracted it out to the Brits--then they could sell it as having the added feature of an automatic chain oiler! After all, we all know that's why the British took so long to adopt electronics in their cars--they had to first figure out how to make them leak oil!
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Well, I assume you're talking about Lucas. Farm it out to British Aerospace and you'd have on the bike Cancellara auto descending navigator with an optional kill to win sprint missile system.
 

Volnix

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Feb 19, 2011
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Originally Posted by swampy1970

Drunken monkeys should be able to solder better than that and off that description that means that the piece in question is something made by someone Italian. Electronics, not their strong suit....

Ha haaa gotcha!
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These would be... (Drum sounds)


The DURA ACE DI2 TT Shifters!!!
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In all their glory, with the cables soldered on used schoolgirl chewing gum.

The cables arent even screwed on the used schoolgirl chewing gum, they're soldered on it! So now if they get pulled out a replacement is needed. Oh well, they are only 260 euro!!!
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A night light switch looks like a spaceship compared to them.
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maydog

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Feb 5, 2010
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Those are not the factory internals of the Di2 TT shifters. Did you know that you can search google using images? This was from a thread where a guy was modifying the levers:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/DIY_Ultegra_Di2_TT_P3754167-11

"Bar-end shifters opened up, internal bits replaced with 2 waterproof micro-switches, which required a fair amount of dremmeling, a bit of soldering, some epoxy resin, then some silicon to finish - end result is that the shifters look absolutely stock and the switches work exactly as they did out of the box."

Images for the proper internals can be found on the same page.
 

Volnix

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Originally Posted by maydog
Images for the proper internals can be found on the same page.

Right... These look sooo much more "sophisticated".
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It's a switch. 3 euro from Maplin.

A servo too? Another 16 euro.
No way the whole thing (Shifters, Mechs, even the #^&* Cassette) costs more than 100 euro to build and dont tell about "R&D" because, ehmmm, "Ain't buying it!".
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3000 asking price? Hmmm...
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http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/round-momentary-spst-rocker-switch-black-n83jz

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/standard-servo-fs35q









 

maydog

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Feb 5, 2010
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Cost is not the point. They will charge what people will pay. If you can design and build something better go ahead and get rich.

The point was that posting a random picture and then claiming it as fact, proof of shoddy quality is disingenuous.

The flame wars between Shimano and Campy on this thread are tounge-in-cheek, for most. Healthy competition only helps the consumer - why no microshift bashing?
 

Volnix

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Feb 19, 2011
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Originally Posted by maydog
Cost is not the point. They will charge what people will pay. If you can design and build something better go ahead and get rich.

The point was that posting a random picture and then claiming it as fact, proof of shoddy quality is disingenuous.

The flame wars between Shimano and Campy on this thread are tounge-in-cheek, for most. Healthy competition only helps the consumer - why no microshift bashing?

Which gets to the "availability" of information. (Drawings, materials, patents, why cant we read them?)


Shimano (and the Japanese in general) are notorious for their "reverse engineering".

They turned the US planes into Zeros, Mercedes into Lexus etc and yes, Campagnolo into "Shimano".


There all these pompus presentations of the new products (another 50 euro per piece because of that), these dope-fiend "Pros" (another 500 per piece), Shimano's and Campagnolo's and Sram's Coke habit (another 500 per piece) and that would be the sad truth behind these prices.

If people were more "educated" then they would probably reject anything more expensive then Campy Centaur, with Electronic modules probably being the "Cheap" option. (Just like the less accurate mechanical watches instead of the more accurate "quartz" electronic ones).


There is this theory that says that super-expensive stuff provides freedom to people who have alot of money.

It might be true if you get something that actually worths something. But paying 3000 euro for a switch, some stacked cookie cutters and a metal stick on a string probably isn't on of them.


Ofcourse with this "mentality" I wont do far in "working" in one of these companies, not to mention that even if I did cough up a few $$$ to get some machinery and build my own I wouldn't have one of them "Spooks" talking ^*%*# about my stuff which would probably be better and cost just a fraction.


It's not that hard to make such components. Which makes it even more irritating having these companys charging 100x the production price (maybe even more with their resources) for them.
 

jhuskey

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Oct 6, 2003
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That's a great theory except for the overhead in business labor, utilities,insurance,shipping, infrastructure, advertising etc. Everyone need food, transportation, housing but not everyone buys bike parts.
I hear most manufacturers like to make a profit also.
 

CAMPYBOB

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Quote by Maydog:
"...why no microshift bashing?"

Your wish is my command!

Damned farkin' chicom junk still using antennae wires!

Worse, it's a clone of old shitmaNO **** which is a **** poor copy of Campagnolo elegance!!!

You want some old SunTour or SunRace hate, too? I can throw in a little Sugino bashing for free if you forward me pics of your fall-away crank arm...
 

maydog

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Feb 5, 2010
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Originally Posted by Volnix


...
It might be true if you get something that actually worths something. But paying 3000 euro for a switch, some stacked cookie cutters and a metal stick on a string probably isn't on of them.
...
The fox who longed for grapes, beholds with pain
The tempting clusters were too high to gain;
Grieved in his heart he forced a careless smile,
And cried ,‘They’re sharp and hardly worth my while.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes
 

jhuskey

Moderator
Oct 6, 2003
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Originally Posted by CAMPYBOB
Quote by Maydog:
"...why no microshift bashing?"

Your wish is my command!

Damned farkin' chicom junk still using antennae wires!

Worse, it's a clone of old shitmaNO **** which is a **** poor copy of Campagnolo elegance!!!

You want some old SunTour or SunRace hate, too? I can throw in a little Sugino bashing for free if you forward me pics of your fall-away crank arm...
I have some 30 year old Suntour that functions perfectly. It must have been a factory defect and not their intention.
 

Volnix

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Feb 19, 2011
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Originally Posted by maydog
The fox who longed for grapes, beholds with pain
The tempting clusters were too high to gain;
Grieved in his heart he forced a careless smile,
And cried ,‘They’re sharp and hardly worth my while.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes

Yeah I know this one, like I know this one too:


Difference being:

I dont want a f'in Shimano DI2...
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I wouldn't mind a Campagnolo Centaur or a SRAM Apex, but I dont think that they worth the money that much either!
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Available in either "Sucker Silver" or "****** Black".
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The Emperor's New Clothes

"A vain Emperor who cares about nothing except wearing and displaying clothes hires two swindlers who promise him the finest, best suit of clothes from a fabric invisible to anyone who is unfit for his position or "hopelessly stupid"."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes





Originally Posted by jhuskey
That's a great theory except for the overhead in business labor, utilities,insurance,shipping, infrastructure, advertising etc. Everyone need food, transportation, housing but not everyone buys bike parts.
I hear most manufacturers like to make a profit also.

Sounds more innocent then it probably actually is.

Anyway, I am starting to like this "GURU bikes" company. No moulds left in the frames, made in Canada from pot-head hotties, massive sale every end of the season. Like 1000 euro instead of 4000 for a frame. Good luck getting 10% on Shimano's stuff every end of the season for production line - light switches in a plastic box.
 

Volnix

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Feb 19, 2011
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♪ Rip-off cleaaats. Get your Rip-off cleaaats heeeeere!

12 euro instead of 20!!! Like the Original ones are good aaanywaaaaaay.

Rip-off cleaaats. Get your Rip-off cleaaats heeeeere! ♪