Cost for a race team

[Froze]

I was going to post this over at the professional side but not too many people read that side so I thought I would post it here where it would get a bit more attention.

I found out today that it now cost more than $42 million dollars a year to finance the top, SKY, professional cycling team! That amount of money is staggering considering that it cost the top Indy Car team $15 million dollars a year to race, about $24 million for a NASCAR team, and there is a lot more people, science, technology, etc in auto racing then a damn bike race! The bottom 25% of budget teams are spending $20 million a year. This is one of the reasons certain brands of bike related parts cost so freaking much...someone has to pay that money back to the corporations and that somebody is US! When you look at how much riders get paid it really isn't much, the minimum rider only gets paid about $36,000 a year, a good lead out man makes about $150,000 a year, and the top 4 riders make on average $2 million a year whereas the top NASCAR drivers make more, so where is all the extra money going in the cycling world of racing if the riders get paid less than drivers and it cost more to have a cycling team then a NASCAR team? The technology in cycling is nothing compared to NASCAR, so I know the money isn't spent there.

https://cyclingtips.com/2015/08/behind-the-scenes-of-the-pro-cycling-business-model/

http://motorsports.nbcsports.com/20...compete-in-formula-one-an-indycar-comparison/

It might be best to stay away from buying bikes that are sponsored by professional race teams so we don't have to pay a certain percentage of the cost of the bike to support that team, but some of it we can't avoid like Shimano, SRAM, and to a lesser degree Campy, all sponsor teams. Just a thought...useless one at that I'm sure! I just found the annual cost of a pro team to be staggering and was overwhelmed by it, I had no idea, my idea was closer to maybe $5 million tops, boy was I ever wrong.

 

[jhuskey]

Coaches, staff and a great deal of money is directed toward advertising. Then of course paying off team doctors and WADA agents.

 

[Froze]

So NASCAR doesn't have a staff nor advertising? They have to pay for medical services to be on standby during races. They have physical training coaches too as weird as that sounds to most of you. Not to mention semi drivers and the associated cost to run trucks, R & D, mechanics, engineering, a crew, all sorts of spare parts, fuel (which cost a heck of lot more than food for a cyclist!). But a single car and engine runs an average of $200,000 dollars and the engine that averages about $65,000 only last an average of 10,000 miles...a bike is about $12,000 and will last a lot longer than 10,000 miles. And that's just one car, most teams keep 14 to 20 cars in racing condition at all times! Tires alone cost $450 each and they keep more in stock than a bicycle race team would. Hendricks Motorsports employs 500 people for their teams while Team Sky has 29.

I'm sorry but none of this adds up. It's baffling to me the amount of money spent on bicycle racing.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

What? You think EPO is free or something?

I remember when Competitive Cyclist start to be the prime sponsor of a USA base Pro Continental team and hired a past his prime Paco Mancebo...their prices took a noticeable jump.

Most Pro Tour teams have no where near Team Sky's budget. No Pro Continental or Continental team would come close Sky and Rupert Murdoch's money.

Even Sky pay their riders, other than Froome and a couple other leaders much more than peanuts. Well, peanuts compared to the work they output in a season.

Hmmm? I wonder what TREK's budget is...or Quick Step's? Off to Google...

 

[CAMPYBOB]

Last year's 'estimated' budgets' by team: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/tour-de-france/tour-de-france-team-largest-budget-262275

Katusha blows $32 million? Doesn't sound right.

They list TREK at $12 million. Contador added for 2017, Cancellara retired...maybe a wash.
Quick Step is mainly a classics team that does a GT here and there for publicity blows $18 million.
FDJ at $10 million gets a few results.

I got to say $10 million sounds like a good deal to me...running a full schedule, dual teams attending multiple simultaneous events, lots of travel, maintaining a Service Course, the multiple buses, motorhomes, cars, custom racks for the fleet all hand made, custom clothing for team and staff, yada, yada, yada.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

One article says the top 10 NASTYCAR teams are: "Team values are down this year, with the top ten worth an average $137 million, a 7% drop."

Haas racing head Gene Haas say:
"Haas has told the Italian magazine Autosprint that the first budget next year will be about $100 million -- significantly less even than the financial loss recorded by dominant world champions Mercedes last year.

"In some ways," Haas said, "the numbers are quite similar to our commitment in NASCAR, even if (for F1) we are talking about only two cars."
Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/nascar-sprint-cup/gene-hass-says-f1-budget-similar-nascar#ixzz4agmM4JLu

Ferrari is a big spender!
"As a result, the biggest spending F1 team Ferrari will run on an estimated budget of $470 million in 2013."
http://motorsports.nbcsports.com/20...compete-in-formula-one-an-indycar-comparison/

Makes a bike team seem like chump change!

 

[jhuskey]

I was being sarcastic but consider that if the average cyclist is paid 150k , now that is average considering the lowest to the highest, that is 4.5 million a year just for 30 riders salary not counting all the support staff needed to service them. I don't believe NASCAR teams employ that many drivers a year. Also consider pro-cycling is international with all the related travel expenses, air fare ,food , housing etc.

 

[Froze]

But Ferrari will make back all of that money back and a lot more by selling only 9000 cars a year, at an average price of $250,000 per car their gross income is 2.25 billion dollars which after the racing cost leaves them with 1.780 billion dollars for other expenses. No doubt that part of the cost to buy a Ferrari has the $52,222 per new car cost to support the racing team padded into each car.

Anyways, it just seems like these guys are getting paid way too much for me, which is helping to increase the cost of cycling for the rest of us.

No, NASCAR doesn't have 500 drivers, the top teams have about 500 members of the staff, they have about 4 drivers each, some of the lower budget teams have fewer drivers, but the drivers average 10 million a year each, the lowest is 1 mill and the highest is 20 mill, so one driver gets paid more than all the racers combined on a cycling team.

 

[Henrywrites]

The reality of the whole situation is that the car sports has got better publicity compared to what we have in the bike race and that is the reason we should realize how much money the company spend advertising about thrnsports. However, I believe that you have got some valid pijpoi that we should really take a look at and see how far it is.

 

[Froze]

I'll say this again with another example, this is why bicycles and parts cost so much freaking money because we are paying for all that racing stuff mentioned earlier. There is no way in heck does a $15,000 bicycle like the Cannondale SuperSix EVO Hi-Mod Disc Black 2018 that is used in pro racing and people buy for the street have anywhere near the technology of even a $5,000 Suzuki GSX250R!! not alone a Aprilia Dorsoduro 900 considered to be a superbike that only cost $11,000.

And the weird thing about this...those two motorcycles brands I mentioned are USED in professional racing as well as the Cannondale yet they don't charge a lot more for their motorcycles like the bicycle industry charges for their bicycles, and the Aprilis Dorsoduro 900 is used in professional racing, no this is pure unadulterated profit raping by the cycling industry to hobbyist who the industry thinks we have deep pockets and are stupid and will buy anything at any price they throw at us. And all the while these cycling companies are raping us cyclists they continue not to pay your local bicycle shops well by giving them low profit margins, so the LBS's are getting raped too. There is no excuse for the average bicycle mechanic to be paid only $25,667 a year with very little increase in pay as the experience level climbs, when an average motorcycle mechanic makes $34,000 and will go up as they gain more experience. Of course the motorcycle mechanic has to deal with A LOT MORE mechanical technology than a bicycle mechanic will ever remotely see, but that goes back to my point about bikes being very low in technology vs motorcycles but cost as much if not more then a lot of motorcycles. But due to all this profit being made by bicycle companies a lot more of that money should be going back into the LBS's pocket so they can pay their employees better than poverty level wages.

 

[cyclintom]

I was going to post this over at the professional side but not too many people read that side so I thought I would post it here where it would get a bit more attention.

I found out today that it now cost more than $42 million dollars a year to finance the top, SKY, professional cycling team! That amount of money is staggering considering that it cost the top Indy Car team $15 million dollars a year to race, about $24 million for a NASCAR team, and there is a lot more people, science, technology, etc in auto racing then a damn bike race! The bottom 25% of budget teams are spending $20 million a year. This is one of the reasons certain brands of bike related parts cost so freaking much...someone has to pay that money back to the corporations and that somebody is US! When you look at how much riders get paid it really isn't much, the minimum rider only gets paid about $36,000 a year, a good lead out man makes about $150,000 a year, and the top 4 riders make on average $2 million a year whereas the top NASCAR drivers make more, so where is all the extra money going in the cycling world of racing if the riders get paid less than drivers and it cost more to have a cycling team then a NASCAR team? The technology in cycling is nothing compared to NASCAR, so I know the money isn't spent there.

As for your idea of "profit raping" - since you see this as so easy why don't you build your own?
https://cyclingtips.com/2015/08/behind-the-scenes-of-the-pro-cycling-business-model/

http://motorsports.nbcsports.com/20...compete-in-formula-one-an-indycar-comparison/

It might be best to stay away from buying bikes that are sponsored by professional race teams so we don't have to pay a certain percentage of the cost of the bike to support that team, but some of it we can't avoid like Shimano, SRAM, and to a lesser degree Campy, all sponsor teams. Just a thought...useless one at that I'm sure! I just found the annual cost of a pro team to be staggering and was overwhelmed by it, I had no idea, my idea was closer to maybe $5 million tops, boy was I ever wrong.

From memory it takes between $20 and $40 million/yr PER CAR and most teams enter 3 cars. Though it may not be clear from the advertising on each car which may have dozens of supporters. So one team is about $60 to $120 million per year. And truth be told, I don't for one second believe those numbers which I think are nothing more than very low end approximations. Big teams race once a week. The motors aren't just built up from stock engines but are entirely custom built to the tune of around a hundred thou apiece. You can burn out the motors in one race. If you blow a motor your entire investment is gone. Not one piece of the chassis or bodywork is stock. Every nut and bolt is custom to THAT car. The suspension is super expensive custom built airshocks. The closest thing to mass production is the tires. Even the rims are likely to be totally custom built.

As for your idea of "profit raping" why don't you start your own bicycle company and rape all of the suckers. There is a reason why a 16 lb bicycle with Campy Record components is so expensive that it is almost double the price of an over-the-counter Honda 250 road bike with full fairing.

Just try and find insurance that will insure a company to sell 2 lbs of carbon fiber frame and fork to any idiot that will walk in off the street with a fat pocketbook and no brains.

 

[Froze]

As for your idea of "profit raping" why don't you start your own bicycle company and rape all of the suckers. There is a reason why a 16 lb bicycle with Campy Record components is so expensive that it is almost double the price of an over-the-counter Honda 250 road bike with full fairing.

Just try and find insurance that will insure a company to sell 2 lbs of carbon fiber frame and fork to any idiot that will walk in off the street with a fat pocketbook and no brains.

You can say what you want, but there isn't anywhere near the technology in a bike as there is in a MC. I'm not going to start my own bike manufacturing plant just as I wouldn't start my own MC manufacturing plant, but I can tell you that a MC manufacturing plant is a heck of lot more complicated in machines, robotics, etc than a bike manufacturing place.

And just find some insurance company that will insure a company making a crotch rocket to any idiot that will walks in off the street with a fat pocketbook and no brains! And crotch rockets have killed more people than bicycles.

So your point isn't taken.

 

[cyclintom]

You can say what you want, but there isn't anywhere near the technology in a bike as there is in a MC. I'm not going to start my own bike manufacturing plant just as I wouldn't start my own MC manufacturing plant, but I can tell you that a MC manufacturing plant is a heck of lot more complicated in machines, robotics, etc than a bike manufacturing place.

And just find some insurance company that will insure a company making a crotch rocket to any idiot that will walks in off the street with a fat pocketbook and no brains! And crotch rockets have killed more people than bicycles.

So your point isn't taken.

Well, your engineering skills are showing. I guess you mean, "the more parts the harder it is to make and the more expensive." That would be accurate unless you counted quantity. Most of these bicycle manufacturers have a run of less than a thousand units. Some a whole LOT less. Some major manufacturers may only make 100 units of a specific model.

Motorcycles are usually built in batches of about 10,000 per year which allows mass production techniques.

Even bicycle component groups are becoming so varied that they do not make enough of any single group to allow mass production.

 

[Froze]

Well, your engineering skills are showing. I guess you mean, "the more parts the harder it is to make and the more expensive." That would be accurate unless you counted quantity. Most of these bicycle manufacturers have a run of less than a thousand units. Some a whole LOT less. Some major manufacturers may only make 100 units of a specific model.

Motorcycles are usually built in batches of about 10,000 per year which allows mass production techniques.

Even bicycle component groups are becoming so varied that they do not make enough of any single group to allow mass production.

Except for one small thing, even the most technological advance CF bike frame only cost $450 to make; while there are molds that can cost a lot of money to make, but unless the bike is a one of a kind custom built job the cost of the mold would be negligible when spread out over a large production run. So with most bikes there is a large production run because those models are sold all over the world to thousands of people, so it is mass production because that's how the molds are used.

And I think you're are trivialising what it takes to make a MC, MC's use carbon fiber as well due to the same reason a bike does, power to weight ratio, so MC companies use molds as well, not to mention R&D as a bike manufacture must do.

Cyclintom, it's the same thing that it was and still is with golf, you can go out and spend $2,000 just for one club, but it doesn't cost any more to make that $2,000 club as it does a $100 dollar one, they are both in production systems, while the $2,000 club won't make as many because they don't sell as many that fact alone doesn't justify the $2,000 asking price. All of this is the same reason audio wire makers will charge $5,000 a FOOT for speaker wire, yet it doesn't sound any better than 10 feet of speaker wire that cost $40, but just as in bicycle and golf clubs people believe the hype and then believe they can tell the difference when there is none. All it is is just marketing hype that drives up prices with fancy catch words.

These sort of prices for bikes and golf clubs is simply marketing, really good marketing, and lots of it.

 

[cyclintom]

Except for one small thing, even the most technological advance CF bike frame only cost $450 to make; while there are molds that can cost a lot of money to make, but unless the bike is a one of a kind custom built job the cost of the mold would be negligible when spread out over a large production run. So with most bikes there is a large production run because those models are sold all over the world to thousands of people, so it is mass production because that's how the molds are used.

And I think you're are trivialising what it takes to make a MC, MC's use carbon fiber as well due to the same reason a bike does, power to weight ratio, so MC companies use molds as well, not to mention R&D as a bike manufacture must do.

Cyclintom, it's the same thing that it was and still is with golf, you can go out and spend $2,000 just for one club, but it doesn't cost any more to make that $2,000 club as it does a $100 dollar one, they are both in production systems, while the $2,000 club won't make as many because they don't sell as many that fact alone doesn't justify the $2,000 asking price. All of this is the same reason audio wire makers will charge $5,000 a FOOT for speaker wire, yet it doesn't sound any better than 10 feet of speaker wire that cost $40, but just as in bicycle and golf clubs people believe the hype and then believe they can tell the difference when there is none. All it is is just marketing hype that drives up prices with fancy catch words.

These sort of prices for bikes and golf clubs is simply marketing, really good marketing, and lots of it.

The cost of the mold cost the same (or nearly so) regardless of the numbers of frames you construct from them. And these bikes, as I said, very often had runs of far less than 1000. Now consider that - 1,000 bikes in some cases in 48, 50, 52, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 60 and maybe a 62. Higher productions might come in XS, S, M, L, XL and maybe XXL and XXS. The Tour de France bikes are custom made for each rider so the molds are made in these rider's sizes.

As you can see molds are expensive and they are changed virtually every year. There are two or three sizes of disks and three different types of disk quick releases. These all require different frame and fork molds.

Bikes like Willier and the like are selling quite low priced for the production prices. This is why they are being built in India and China and Taiwan. Even the carbon handles of the quick shifters are being changed all the time though their production quantities makes these changes more economical.

So don't be fooled by someone saying that there is only $200 of carbon fiber and resin in a frame. That is only part of the problem.

 

[Froze]

Even if all that you say is correct a bicycle still doesn't have all the expenses and R&D that a MC will go through before production, and the factory equipment to make MC plus the man hours far exceed anything that a bike manufacture will have, one robot arm alone will cost upwards of $400,000 but there are other expenses associated with that one robot arm that can easily double the cost of purchase price and those expenses are ongoing every year.

But you can't compare a single custom made road bike for a pro rider to a production bike the rest of us buy, heck you want to go that far there are custom built pro racing MC's too! But this discussion is not about custom ****, it's about production bikes vs production MC's, and in the world of bicycles it's all about whatever the market will bear.

Giant, who is the largest bicycle manufacturer in the world made 1.80 billion dollars after expenses last year, so don't tell me how little profit they make.

 

[cyclintom]

Even if all that you say is correct a bicycle still doesn't have all the expenses and R&D that a MC will go through before production, and the factory equipment to make MC plus the man hours far exceed anything that a bike manufacture will have, one robot arm alone will cost upwards of $400,000 but there are other expenses associated with that one robot arm that can easily double the cost of purchase price and those expenses are ongoing every year.

But you can't compare a single custom made road bike for a pro rider to a production bike the rest of us buy, heck you want to go that far there are custom built pro racing MC's too! But this discussion is not about custom ****, it's about production bikes vs production MC's, and in the world of bicycles it's all about whatever the market will bear.

Giant, who is the largest bicycle manufacturer in the world made 1.80 billion dollars after expenses last year, so don't tell me how little profit they make.

As someone that actually sold motorcycles for 5 years or so, believe me that they do not change much. For years and years the only thing that would change is the color of the paint and the number of chromed pieces. You don't think that a Harley Sportster has had much change since 1965 do you? Yamaha and Honda have been using the same motors and frames for decades. And the only changes in them are displacement of the motors and not a dozen different sizes and different geometry because of those sizes like they are in a bike.

Certainly you are correct that one bicycle cost a hell of a lot less to design and manufacture than one motorcycle but the MC is spread out over years and years of production and thousands of units rather than hundreds changed every year.

Look at Colnago - they sponsor the EFD team in the Tour. One of their star support riders is Taylor Phinney. Taylor is 6'5" tall and something like 190 lbs. He requires a frame size of around 62 or 63 cm. Colnago doesn't make a stock bike that size. I'm an inch shorter and 10 lbs lighter and I have to buy 59 cm frames to ride a Colnago these days. And they make a miniscule number of bikes in that size because most people ride 54, 55 and 56 cm's.

What about pickup trucks? Hell the only changes on them for the last 20 years was bodywork. And press molds are relatively cheap.

And as for your $1.8 Billion - what was their profit? Giant is the biggest bicycle manufacturer in the world and make about 200 different models. And each of those models have at least three different sizes. And half of them change every year.

The Honda Company made less than $2 Million in profit last year. Do you want to compare their PROFIT with their income?

I think you have to learn a lot more about the economics of business since you seem to have a rather uneducated view of just how much work it takes to make a dollar. That isn't any sort of insult, it is simply an analysis of your statements.

 

[Froze]

Giant's 1.8 billion WAS THE PROFIT!!! And you made my point for me, that your example of Honda only making $2 million in profit just goes to show you that the bicycle industry is making a ton of money...at least until the baby boomers die off then they'll be back in the poor house.

Again quit comparing a custom built bicycle for some pro racer, it's not pertinent to the point, any custom built anything will be more expensive than anything in normal production. If you want to compare custom let's compare custom motorcycles, the range for a custom MC is from $15,000 to $50,000, even on the low end the custom MC is still around the cost of a much lower technology bicycle.

Look at pickup trucks and cars, you can't even buy a nicely equipped either for less than $45,000! of course with the automotive industry a little more than $15,000 of the price of EACH new car and truck goes towards employee benefits including retirement, which is why there is that massive depreciation after the just first year which is around 25% depending on the car, and continues to grow to around 60% after the first 5 years (which is why I never buy a car that's newer than 5 years old). Cars have far exceeded inflation levels, an average car sold for $2,822 in 1968, the average car today sells for $36,270, however if a car was increasing with the rate of inflation it should only cost us an average of $20,853...hmm, do the math, $15,417 is the difference and that difference is due to employee benefits for both working and retired.

And Harley's have changed a lot since 1965; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_Sportster

And the cycling industry just doesn't throw out molds every year, they sell them to other brands which is why a lot of bikes look virtually the same; http://inrng.com/2012/02/who-made-your-bike/

 

[cyclintom]

Giant's 1.8 billion WAS THE PROFIT!!! And you made my point for me, that your example of Honda only making $2 million in profit just goes to show you that the bicycle industry is making a ton of money...at least until the baby boomers die off then they'll be back in the poor house.

Again quit comparing a custom built bicycle for some pro racer, it's not pertinent to the point, any custom built anything will be more expensive than anything in normal production. If you want to compare custom let's compare custom motorcycles, the range for a custom MC is from $15,000 to $50,000, even on the low end the custom MC is still around the cost of a much lower technology bicycle.

Look at pickup trucks and cars, you can't even buy a nicely equipped either for less than $45,000! of course with the automotive industry a little more than $15,000 of the price of EACH new car and truck goes towards employee benefits including retirement, which is why there is that massive depreciation after the just first year which is around 25% depending on the car, and continues to grow to around 60% after the first 5 years (which is why I never buy a car that's newer than 5 years old). Cars have far exceeded inflation levels, an average car sold for $2,822 in 1968, the average car today sells for $36,270, however if a car was increasing with the rate of inflation it should only cost us an average of $20,853...hmm, do the math, $15,417 is the difference and that difference is due to employee benefits for both working and retired.

And Harley's have changed a lot since 1965; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_Sportster

And the cycling industry just doesn't throw out molds every year, they sell them to other brands which is why a lot of bikes look virtually the same; http://inrng.com/2012/02/who-made-your-bike/

I really don't know where you're coming from. That $1.8 billion was from 2014 and it was the INCOME. The only way you're going to be able to get their profits is from their stock reports.

The sponsorship of cycling teams comes directly from the top line so every custom made bike is another dollar off of the bottom line. I'm told from some supposed team mechanics that they made each rider about 20 custom fit bikes a year. Now that may be a little exaggerated because most people ride 54, 55 and 56 cm bikes that do not need any custom changes. It is only the outlyers such as 50 cm and below and 59 cm and above that need to be more carefully fit to people.

Do not speak of "inflation rate" since you do not understand the financial field. You probably couldn't tell me where inflation comes from or what effects it and if there is a "normal" inflation or not. I'm also pretty sure that you don't understand the overprinting of money that occurred under Obama and consequential devaluation of the American dollar not once but twice for the first time in American history. The increasing prices of cars has been from the taxation of every single component and has very little to do with inflation. And it isn't because of increases in auto-worker wages: 1. There are very little actual autoworkers in America today and most are assemblers. 2. The Unions lost control of that industry long ago when Clinton allowed American cars to be manufactured in other countries.

This is all a side track though. You seem to think that the technology of carbon fiber bikes is standing still. The entire method of molds has been changing so rapidly that only people like Mozilla in India could use old molds and they would only sell their bikes in Asia since that is part of the deal of selling molds. Bicycles look similar because they ARE similar. How in the hell did you tell an SLX Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra from an early SLX Basso Loto? Oh, that's right - the slope of the fork head was different.

Companies aren't out to screw you. If that were so all it would take would be competition to wring that out of the industry very rapidly. Capitalism is the most successful economic system ever devised. It makes the people with ideas successful by providing products that people want and it provides the manufacturers profits to hire and pay workers and it provides the end customer the most cost effective components possible.

How are they making any profits now? By selling new components. Do you need disk brakes that come in mechanical and hydraulic? That have three or four different disk diameters and two different means of attachment to new wheels and three different "quick" releases that in fact are NOT quick any longer? Do you need a brake designed to wear its shoes out in a matter of months?

Do you find mechanical shifting so difficult and tiring that you would of needs buy electronic shifting?

Do you need to pay four or five times for a set of cranks that have strain gauges in them so that they can measure efforts/output of the rider?

Do you find aero wheels have any measurable effect under 30 mph? Is that the sort of speeds you ride at?

I have changed my mind after finally managing to get real wide ratio 10 speed cassettes (I built my own but you can now buy them from IRD for a couple of hundred dollars apiece.) But very soon 10 speed components will be a thing of the past and you will be expected to buy the remaining stock until that is gone and then rely on secondary suppliers.

In any case, saying that Giant is screwing anyone is pretty far out of line for the largest supplier of bicycles in the world. They didn't get that way by overcharging.

 

[Froze]

Just as you said the bikes look virtually the same so the cost to manufacture them is low, very low, and so is the technology used, thus the reason for the high profits that Giant makes; Honda's profits are a lot lower but the technology is a lot greater, so if Honda was to sell their MC's at cost that could see a billion dollar profit then Honda wouldn't be selling many motorcycles because they would cost about $80,000 a piece depending on models and options of course, which is why bicycle manufactures can charge a lot because they can get away with and MC manufacturer's cannot and thus the profit margins are lower.

In addition to that 3D printers are now beginning to make bicycle frames which will make them a whole lot cheaper which won't reduce the prices for us it will just increase profits for them.

And there is no need for you to ramble on and on about stuff that isn't pertinent to our discussion which you seem to do a lot of. Mech shifting and tiredness equals elect shifting; cranks with strain gauges, aero wheel speed, 10 speed cassettes being the thing of of the past, all nonsense that has nothing to do with our discussion. I find the 10 speed cass comment odd since Shimano, Sunrace and IRD still make 5, 6 and 7 speed freewheel clusters, so I seriously doubt with all the bikes that have 10 speed cass still on the road that companies will stop making them and the warehouse supplies will just dry up and blow away. Now you have me rambling!

Now on to inflation, something as you say you think you know about me that I know nothing about. Below is a graph of the inflation, apparently the largest inflation period was from 1970 to 1979 at 7.06. Who was the president that started that? Nixon, and do you know what Nixon did to create that situation? I'll let you get back to me on that one because you're the expert and I'm just a flunky. Apparently during Obama's reign it was just 3.22%...BUT, Obama debt caused inflation hasn't caught up with us yet, but it will (and when it does Trump will get the blame), but for our discussion it hasn't yet, thus your argument is a moot point.