CPSC judgement on disk brakes and QR forks



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In article <[email protected]>, Doug Taylor
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >My frame of reference for my is perhaps different than yours: "What is Buddha-nature?" "Mu."
>
> Ah. A redeeming quality. But how someone cultivating mindfulness can't appreciate disc brakes
> escapes me ;-)

Who mus?
 
David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<zAq*[email protected]>...
> Spider <[email protected]> wrote:
> >James Annan <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:<[email protected]>...
> >>2. The British Standard demands that the front brake can generate 0.41g, and that's for any
> >> cheap junk let alone a high performance mountain bike.
> >constants of the equation not one tiny bit. I have no doubt that disk brakes COULD generate more
> >than 1.0g
>
> Except for the trivial consideration that that's going to send you flying, yes.

I'm not saying what the consequences whould be, I'm just saying that disk brakes are much more
powerful than the standard cited. So as to be a non-issue.

Other than to be condescending, did you have a point?

> >>Sometimes, mu will certainly be above 0.6 which is all that is required for the higher figure.
> >I am going to assume you mean an acceleration of 0.6g, not the coefficient of friction mu.
>
> Of course he doesn't. Perhaps it has not occured to you that the maximum deceleration before the
> front wheel skids is equal to the coefficient of friction between it and the surface?

Oh, really? Well, Jobst above says that in the calculation for the max decel, the value of mu was
assumed to be 1 (BTW, most of the websites I visited that discussed rubber on asphalt put the static
friction coeffcient at about 0.9 - some even as low as 0.7.) In what math universe does 0.6 = 1???

Tim: this is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. If the info isn't on James' website, then he's
going to have to answer questions here. Even Jobst is kind enough to post links to FAQs in r.b.t. If
James is unhappy about that, he should answer the questions on his website.

David: before you throw around epithets and take on a smug attitude, I suggest that you review your
freshman-level physics. Because this is USENET, I won't expect any sort of acknowledgement of error
on your part.

Spider
 
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> (Spider) wrote:
>
> > > > In any case, this doesn't answer my question about the coefficient of friction between dirt
> > > > and knobbies. This one figure could significantly change the vertical force on the axle.
> > > > This is one of the things that James continually avoids, and I can't figure it out for the
> > > > life of me.
> > >
> > > Ok, I'll type this veeerrrrrryyyyyyy sloooooowwwwwwlllllyyyyyy.
> >
> > Typing speed makes absolutely no difference in the logic required. It is exactly this
> > condescending attitude which hardens opinion *against* your position. If you have something
> > of value to impart, then condescension is not required. I am baffled as to what good you
> > think it does.
>
> He's had the same personal attacks repeated over and over by a series of new posters for neartly
> six months.

Certainly he has webspace such that he can answer the questions completely and accurately, then link
them here. No need for any kind of attitude. Besides, whether or not other posters have attacked him
or his data, being anything but professional in return does nothing but make him look smaller.

> Unfortunately the personal attacks have outweighed the reasoned criticism by a wide margin.

Surely both you and he can recognize a legitimate question and be able to differentiate between that
and a flame!

> It gets old, I suppose, and makes one irritable.

Unacceptable. I have not flamed, but only asked questions and sought clarification. And when none is
forthcoming, I get excuses as to why I should not expect any, based on behavior of other posters!
This is nothing close to logic, Tim.

> Much of this thread has been just a rehash of prior threads, which could be avoided by just
> searching the newsgroup via Google.

Indeed. I searched google for the 0.6g figure, and saw it mentioned in one prior post. I'm sorry,
but some searches are reasonable, and some are not. James goes to great length to explain on his
website how all the numbers were arrived at, EXCEPT this one. If he has explained it, I have not yet
been able to find it.

> As far as I can recall, only your mu argument is new to this discussion in this thread and the
> rest is reruns. And that's really only new by virtue of introducing the term "mu" to the
> conversation, the issue itself has been discussed.

The coefficient of friction of tires on dirt is much lower than the figure of 1.0 assumed by the
calculation. Considering that it is a directly multiplicative factor in the calculations in the real
useage of the brake system, one might imagine it to be important.

Even so, the issue of statistics has been raised. It has been raised before, by me, and Jobst blew
it off by saying "use google." I did, and saw one reference to any kind of statistics, in which the
numbers were fabricated whole from the cloth by James. Or "educated guess," is one is most
charitable. Except that I don't see where he gets his numbers for *that either.*

I'm not going to leave this alone until my questions are answered. Since I have lost hope that they
will be answered politely, I will just settle for answers. Again, I am simply dumbfounded that this
sort of questioning requires browbeating and the acceptance of uncalled-for condescension on the
part of people who *actually want to convince me of the correctness of their argument!*

Spider
 
[email protected] (Spider) writes:

> > Of course he doesn't. Perhaps it has not occured to you that the maximum deceleration before the
> > front wheel skids is equal to the coefficient of friction between it and the surface?
>
> Oh, really? Well, Jobst above says that in the calculation for the max decel, the value of mu was
> assumed to be 1 (BTW, most of the websites I visited that discussed rubber on asphalt put the
> static friction coeffcient at about 0.9 - some even as low as 0.7.) In what math universe does
> 0.6 = 1???

This is a good question and deserves a good answer [I agree that the condescending attitude we see
here doesn't help]. The mu (coefficient of friction) between tire rubber and clean asphalt is
approximately 1. The mu between tire rubber and dirt trail is significantly less than 1.

The maximum deceleration of a standard bicycle (road or mountain) on flat ground is approximately
0.6g. The reason for this limit is that for higher values the bike will "endo". Note that for a road
bike on clean asphalt it is possible to generate more lateral acceleration (cornering) than
straight-line braking acceleration because the bike can lean in a turn [this has no bearing on our
discussion but is an interesting factoid].

There are two limits, then, on steady state straight line braking: the coefficient between tire and
road and the max deceleration withing flipping. The lower limit is applicable.

For example, assume on a dirt trail mu = 0.5. The max steady state braking deceleration is

amax = max(0.6g, 0.5g) = 0.5g.

Another point to consider. While amax is a limit, the maximum force is not f = m*amax, with m = mass
of rider and bike. That is the maximum steady-state force; higher forces are achievable by using
impulsive braking. This is analogous to the method used to climb a steep dirt trail, where you
cyclically pull and push on the bars to impulsively load the rear wheel to prevent slipping.

Joe Riel
 
Joe Riel <[email protected]> writes:

> For example, assume on a dirt trail mu = 0.5. The max steady state braking deceleration is
>
> amax = max(0.6g, 0.5g) = 0.5g.

That should be

amax = min(0.6g, 0.5g) = 0.5g.

Joe Riel
 
Spider <[email protected]> wrote:
>David Damerell <[email protected]>:
>>Spider <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>James Annan <[email protected]>:
>>>>2. The British Standard demands that the front brake can generate 0.41g, and that's for any
>>>> cheap junk let alone a high performance mountain bike.
>>>constants of the equation not one tiny bit. I have no doubt that disk brakes COULD generate more
>>>than 1.0g
>>Except for the trivial consideration that that's going to send you flying, yes.
>Other than to be condescending, did you have a point?

If we want a sensible figure for the ejection force, we will have to consider decelerations that are
actually feasible.

>>>I am going to assume you mean an acceleration of 0.6g, not the coefficient of friction mu.
>>Of course he doesn't. Perhaps it has not occured to you that the maximum deceleration before the
>>front wheel skids is equal to the coefficient of friction between it and the surface?
>Oh, really?

Yes, really. At maximum deceleration all weight is on the front wheel, which is being pulled down
onto the ground with 1g. If you do the mathematics you will see that hence the front wheel will skid
as the attempted deceleration (in gravities) exceeds mu.

>Well, Jobst above says that in the calculation for the max decel, the value of mu was
>assumed to be 1

But that doesn't matter because often the maximum deceleration is constrained by the possibility of
lifting the rear wheel, not by the coefficient of friction. Since the rear wheel lifts around 0.6g,
as long as mu is >=0.6 it is not relevant what the actual value is.

You are assuming the maximum deceleration and hence the ejection force is proportional to the
coefficient of friction. That is not necessarily the case.

[And demonstrably that _is_ often the case, because the surface often does permit lifting the rear
wheel in an emergency stop.]

>David: before you throw around epithets and take on a smug attitude, I suggest that you review your
>freshman-level physics. Because this is USENET, I won't expect any sort of acknowledgement of error
>on your part.

You shouldn't expect it because I'm right and you're not.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
 
<[email protected]> wrote:
>That the 0.6g number entered the discussion is unfortunate, because it only ads a diversion,
>being valuable only in computing maximum disengagement force for a specific rider. Because one
>cannot predict where riders will position their CG when braking, which depends on rider skill
>and aggressiveness, the g-force can lie in a fairly broad range, 0.6 being at the
>conservatively low end.

I don't see that it is unfortunate - if we believe that 0.6 is a conservatively low figure, then
the ejection force generated by it is a realistic figure likely to be seen (at a minimum) in
emergency stops.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
 
Spider <[email protected]> wrote:
>Indeed. I searched google for the 0.6g figure, and saw it mentioned in one prior post. I'm sorry,
>but some searches are reasonable, and some are not. James goes to great length to explain on his
>website how all the numbers were arrived at, EXCEPT this one. If he has explained it, I have not
>yet been able to find it.

I've explained it to you twice now. Merely because you choose to ignore it does not mean it has not
been explained to you.

>The coefficient of friction of tires on dirt is much lower than the figure of 1.0 assumed by the
>calculation. Considering that it is a directly multiplicative factor in the calculations in the
>real useage of the brake system,

No, it's not. Provided the friction is sufficient to admit of lifting the rear wheel - which
evidently it sometimes is - the ejection force is not related to the friction at all.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
 
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:00:14 +0900, James Annan <[email protected]> may have said:

>This is not actually the 'official' signed letter which is in the post, but I received the
>following via email recently:
>
>"Based upon the information currently available, the staff does not believe the problem identified
>necessitates further action by the Commission under Section 15 of the CPSA. However, the Commission
>has recommended that the ASTM Bicycle Committee, which meets in October 2003, take this matter
>under advisement for further discussion, additional testing and problem examination."
>
>Section 15 of the CPSA can be found at https://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/cpsa15b.html

I'll just toss in an observation or two.

The CPSC tends to view products differently based in part on who they are sold to. If a product is
mass-marketed to the public in large quantities, and the "average" user may be either an untrained
and unskilled juvenile or someone who is unlikely to be familiar with routine safe usage, mantenance
and repair issues and their implications, then they apply a less forgiving standard of what creates
an unacceptable hazard. If the product's principal market is to skilled enthusiasts or technically
qualified persons and particularly if it is customarily sold for use by persons engaged in an
actvity that has some inherent hazards already, then the application of the standard is somewhat
different; if the hazard is recognized as being generally avoidable by proper maintenance and
inspection, they are unlikely to find that there is a fundamental hazard involved for skilled users.
I believe the bike disk brakes are being judged as properly belinging in the latter category.

As an example of the difference: I seem to recall that quite a few years ago, a brand of rock
climbing rope was recalled because it was subject to internal fiber breakage which would not be
revealed by normal inspection techniques. Thus, even a skilled user would be at risk of serious
injury from the defect, and a recall was merited. Conversely, however, the CPSC has not demanded the
recall of the non-climbing-quality imitation carabiners which are presently being marketed as
keychains (and such) because the perception is that even though they are often not marked "do not
use for climbing", no real rock climber would make the mistake of using one.

It is important to note that at present, largely due to their cost, bike front disc brakes are
primarily marketed to cycling enthusiasts; these buyers are probably regarded as being persons
likely to be familiar with the safety and maintenance issues associated with their equipment, and
therefore are probably being judged able to evaluate the risks and take the actions needed to
control them in the use of the brakes in question. As such, restricting the sale or use of such
units would not seem warranted. If, however, some manufacturer were to begin marketing a front disk
brake mounted to a QR wheel on bikes at the under-$200 price level, the attitude might change.

If my impression is correct, and this is indeed the rationale that is being applied, then I don't
have a problem with that policy. YMMV.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.
 
David Damerell writes:

>> That the 0.6g number entered the discussion is unfortunate, because it only ads a diversion,
>> being valuable only in computing maximum disengagement force for a specific rider. Because one
>> cannot predict where riders will position their CG when braking, which depends on rider skill
>> and aggressiveness, the g-force can lie in a fairly broad range, 0.6 being at the conservatively
>> low end.

> I don't see that it is unfortunate - if we believe that 0.6 is a conservatively low figure, then
> the ejection force generated by it is a realistic figure likely to be seen (at a minimum) in
> emergency stops.

I think I explained that values of greater than 0.6 are common and reasonable both for dirt and
road. In the short run, in dry regions trails are hard and dusty but there are as many regions where
trails are moist and knobby tires make an impression giving rise to traction greater than 1:1.

The intent is to make clear that some riders are exposed to this failure at the upper end of the
performance range. It is not adequate or realistic to take some mean value on which to base the
assessment although 0.6 is still enough to separate an axle from the dropout for the reasons I
mentioned.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]
 
Werehatrack wrote:

> It is important to note that at present, largely due to their cost, bike front disc brakes are
> primarily marketed to cycling enthusiasts; these buyers are probably regarded as being persons
> likely to be familiar with the safety and maintenance issues associated with their equipment,
> and therefore are probably being judged able to evaluate the risks and take the actions needed
> to control them in the use of the brakes in question. As such, restricting the sale or use of
> such units would not seem warranted. If, however, some manufacturer were to begin marketing a
> front disk brake mounted to a QR wheel on bikes at the under-$200 price level, the attitude
> might change.
>
> If my impression is correct, and this is indeed the rationale that is being applied, then I don't
> have a problem with that policy. YMMV.

Interesting perspective, thanks.

I still haven't even got the official letter from the CPSC, maybe I will try to find out one what
grounds the CPSC actually made the decision - I know it says Section 15 of the CPSA, but on reading
that, there are at least 3 logical possibilities:

1. There is no dangerous hazard, I made it up.
2. There is a dangerous hazard, but they do not consider it a defect, it's just a feature.
3. There is a defect causing a dangerous hazard, but for some reason they do not consider it helpful
or necessary to take action.

I assume they are primarily basing their judgement on the statements by the manufacturers that they
have never received any complaints about this hazard, ie point 1. The manufacturers' claims may
actually be true, and I find it a bit disappointing that apparently none of the people who have
suffered from this problem have been prepared to even go to the trouble of writing a simple email in
order to protect others from the same fate. But there's not much I can do about that.

James
 
James Annan <[email protected]> wrote:

>I still haven't even got the official letter from the CPSC, maybe I will try to find out one what
>grounds the CPSC actually made the decision - I know it says Section 15 of the CPSA, but on reading
>that, there are at least 3 logical possibilities:
>
>1. There is no dangerous hazard, I made it up.
>2. There is a dangerous hazard, but they do not consider it a defect, it's just a feature.
>3. There is a defect causing a dangerous hazard, but for some reason they do not consider it
> helpful or necessary to take action.

At least 3, eh?

How about:

4. There may or may not be a dangerous hazard; there is not enough information currently available
to make a determination under Section 15 of the CPSA. More evidence, testing and examination are
necessary.

Here is the original quote from CPSC in your first post in this thread:

"Based upon the information currently available, the staff does not believe the problem identified
necessitates further action by the Commission under Section 15 of the CPSA. However, the Commission
has recommended that the ASTM Bicycle Committee, which meets in October 2003, take this matter under
advisement for further discussion, additional testing and problem examination."

Seem pretty clear to me, but I'm just a lawyer who knows how to read English. I'm no ROCKET
SCIENTIST like you.

From your lack of reading comprehension skills, combined with your condescending attitude toward
those who question or disagree with you and Vandemanesque accusations that your detractors are
"liars", I conclude you must be just another rabid crackpot on usenet to filter out.

--dt
 
Doug Taylor <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> 4. There may or may not be a dangerous hazard; there is not enough information currently
> available to make a determination under Section 15 of the CPSA. More evidence, testing and
> examination are necessary.

> Seem pretty clear to me, but I'm just a lawyer who knows how to read English. I'm no ROCKET
> SCIENTIST like you.

The letter says "the staff does not believe the problem identified necessitates further action by
the Commission under Section 15 of the CPSA"

Seems clear enough to me too. Furthermore, although you weren't to know it, the file was sent to me
as an email attachment saved with the filename CLOSE.doc. I guess we'll just have to wait and let
history decide which interpretation was the more accurate one.

Of course if someone comes back to them with any new evidence, they might reopen the case. The ASTM
said several months ago that they would look into this 'in due course' but they do not seem to have
done anything in the interim and are certainly not a consumer protection organisation. More likely,
they will invent a new inconvenient wheel attachment method, foist it on all cyclists including road
bike users, and I'll get blamed for that too.

> From your lack of reading comprehension skills, combined with your condescending attitude toward
> those who question or disagree with you and Vandemanesque accusations that your detractors are
> "liars", I conclude you must be just another rabid crackpot on usenet to filter out.

My loss, I'm sure. Bye.

James
 
In article <0hv*[email protected]>, David Damerell
<[email protected]> wrote:

> >>>I am going to assume you mean an acceleration of 0.6g, not the coefficient of friction mu.
> >>Of course he doesn't. Perhaps it has not occured to you that the maximum deceleration before the
> >>front wheel skids is equal to the coefficient of friction between it and the surface?
> >Oh, really?
>
> Yes, really. At maximum deceleration all weight is on the front wheel, which is being pulled down
> onto the ground with 1g. If you do the mathematics you will see that hence the front wheel will
> skid as the attempted deceleration (in gravities) exceeds mu.
>
> >Well, Jobst above says that in the calculation for the max decel, the value of mu was assumed
> >to be 1
>
> But that doesn't matter because often the maximum deceleration is constrained by the possibility
> of lifting the rear wheel, not by the coefficient of friction. Since the rear wheel lifts around
> .6g, as long as mu is >=0.6 it is not relevant what the actual value is.
>
> You are assuming the maximum deceleration and hence the ejection force is proportional to the
> coefficient of friction. That is not necessarily the case.
>
> [And demonstrably that _is_ often the case, because the surface often does permit lifting the rear
> wheel in an emergency stop.]

All right, so let me toss in a question- probably an obvious one that's already been covered- to
check my understanding. Assuming a hard stop at 0.6g with a rider weight of 200 lb, without skidding
and all the braking being done with the front wheel, an ejection force is created at a 4:1 ratio due
to the difference in diameters between the brake and the tire. Now, leaving out the weight of the
bike for the sake of convenience, I make that out to be an ejection force of:

200 * 0.6 = 120; 120 * 4 = 480 lbs of ejection force.

Does speed enter into this? Common sense suggests that the faster I am going when I hit the brakes,
the greater the ejection force will be. Common sense is not always right in these matters. Should
the figure for my weight (200 lbs) be replaced with a calculation for momentum to accurately
estimate the ejection force?
 
Tim McNamara wrote:

> All right, so let me toss in a question- probably an obvious one that's already been covered- to
> check my understanding. Assuming a hard stop at 0.6g with a rider weight of 200 lb, without
> skidding and all the braking being done with the front wheel, an ejection force is created at a
> 4:1 ratio due to the difference in diameters between the brake and the tire. Now, leaving out the
> weight of the bike for the sake of convenience, I make that out to be an ejection force of:
>
> 200 * 0.6 = 120; 120 * 4 = 480 lbs of ejection force.
>
> Does speed enter into this?

Not into the calculation of the force. But if you are going faster you'll need to maintain the
deceleration for a longer period of time before stopping. So the ejection force will also be present
for a longer time.

> Common sense suggests that the faster I am going when I hit the brakes, the greater the ejection
> force will be. Common sense is not always right in these matters.
 
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> writes:

> All right, so let me toss in a question- probably an obvious one that's already been covered- to
> check my understanding. Assuming a hard stop at 0.6g with a rider weight of 200 lb, without
> skidding and all the braking being done with the front wheel, an ejection force is created at a
> 4:1 ratio due to the difference in diameters between the brake and the tire. Now, leaving out the
> weight of the bike for the sake of convenience, I make that out to be an ejection force of:
>
> 200 * 0.6 = 120; 120 * 4 = 480 lbs of ejection force.
>
> Does speed enter into this? Common sense suggests that the faster I am going when I hit the
> brakes, the greater the ejection force will be. Common sense is not always right in these matters.

Common sense is not correct in this situation. The only effect that increased velocity has is to
increase the required duration of braking time and hence duration of applied ejection force.

> Should the figure for my weight (200 lbs) be replaced with a calculation for momentum to
> accurately estimate the ejection force?

No.

Joe Riel
 
Peter <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<14V5b.356897$o%2.163822@sccrnsc02>...
> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > Does speed enter into this?
>
> Not into the calculation of the force.

There's a minor point that may be of interest. As was mentioned before, it's possible for the
instantaneous braking deceleration to actually exceed the geometrical 'limit' of 0.6g, but only
momentarily. This is especially easy when the rider is going very slowly and does not actually have
enough kinetic energy to go over the bars (since this requires the CoG to rise by a modest amount).
You can roll along slowly, brake as hard as you can and the rear wheel will rise a bit and then fall
back down. In fact one might be able to generate a larger deceleration than mu.g, since while being
accelerated upwards, the ground reaction force will exceed the rider weight. With a disk brake,
these 'low speed stoppies' can put a very big force on the hub, much larger than in normal riding
Planet X have recently changed their dropouts because of this problem, and they mention this on
their website.

I think I remember once seeing a picture of a touring bicycle with bent fork, which had been caused
by the mudguard jamming the wheel and causing a sudden stop (perhaps in the CTC magazine, in an
article warning of that danger). In that case, the deceleration was obviously very large indeed.

James
 
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
>brake and the tire. Now, leaving out the weight of the bike for the sake of convenience, I make
>that out to be an ejection force of: 200 * 0.6 = 120; 120 * 4 = 480 lbs of ejection force.

Metric, man!

>Does speed enter into this? Common sense suggests that the faster I am going when I hit the brakes,
>the greater the ejection force will be. Common sense is not always right in these matters.

Quite so - common sense is messing with your head. It seems this way because at low speeds the bike
is more tolerant of braking near the point of lifting the rear wheel - in particular, at very low
speeds, even if you lock up the front wheel altogether there is not enough energy to actually tip
you all the way over.

Although kinetic energy is proportional to the square of velocity, work is force times distance;
when you're going faster the braking surfaces do more work for a given force, per unit time. Hence
the time taken to stop is proportional to velocity not to the square of velocity...
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
 
<[email protected]> wrote:
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>predict where riders will position their CG when braking, which depends on rider skill and
>>>aggressiveness, the g-force can lie in a fairly broad range, 0.6 being at the conservatively
>>>low end.
>>I don't see that it is unfortunate - if we believe that 0.6 is a conservatively low figure,
>trails are hard and dusty but there are as many regions where trails are moist and knobby tires
>make an impression giving rise to traction greater than 1:1.

Hang on - 2 postings ago you were talking about 0.6g of deceleration. Now you're talking about the
coefficient of friction.

The figure for deceleration is a sensible one to have in the discussion because it is a deceleration
that riders may reach in an emergency stop without special positioning on the bike, and as such the
resulting ejection force is one that may realistically be seen.

That coefficient of friction entered the discussion at all is unfortunate, yes, since it is
evident that often in emergency stops there is no risk of skidding the front wheel before the rear
wheel lifts.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
 
Spider <[email protected]> wrote:
>who are new to the subject* and some are not. Like I said - I saw the number explained in *one*
>place, after doing a groups search.

You saw it explained _to you_ _right here_. Twice.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
 
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