Crackdown on cyclists nets #3000

Marc Brett <[email hidden]> wrote:
| Hard to tell from the picture on http://maps.live.com/ but it looks like
| there are oversize double yellow lines which go around that corner,
| (Parks Road & Broad Street) which might be mistaken for a cycle path. I
| can't see a filter lane to the ASL.

I haven't seen your picture, but there's nothing oversize about yellow
lines there. What there is there is a second kerb, about two feet in
from the normal kerb, so that there isn't a one-foot drop from the
pavement straight into the road. The corner is slightly exaggerated,
but still fails quite to line up with the road opposite.

Broad Street was once a confusion of moat and roads, and I think this
crossroads would once have been a staggered junction, had such concepts
existed at the time.

Tom Crispin said:

Quoted message said:

I was sat at this very junction this morning, as I often am. I am
really quite often the only 'sitter' but today there were a few more.
I let out a 'tut' at a cyclist who broke a red at a great speed. A guy
next to me said "No no, it's okay for him to jump a red because
accidents happen to other people. It won't ever happen to him". So
true of many attitudes out on the roads.

It's a great shame because in Oxford, the bike is king and the roads
are teaming with avid cyclists. It's just a same that so many feel
waiting for green is a waste of time.

However, I must echo the point that lorries at the junction in
question are idiots. There aren't many HGVs that use it, but for the
once or twice a day there is one, they are slightly less than
considerate. The trouble with the junction is that it is very open on
three sides.....but Hollywell road is quite hidden and anything
speeding out of there simply won't be seen in time. False sense of
safety.

Let us not forget that if there was no motor traffic there would be
few traffic lights. Traffic lights are designed to control motor
traffic.

true, but even so that really doesn't change the matter, if 31 in 30
zone is unaccemptble so is jumping lights.

attaully the my favourite i see is rather than wait with the rest of
traffic at the lights, nr kingston bridge ride on the wrong side of the
road, then on to the pavment.

roger

Tom Crispin said:

A feeder lane into an ASL box is a mandatory feature and is the only
legal way for a cyclists to enter an ASL box when the lights are red.

This is true, but not understood by all the people who paint roads.
I've definitely seen ASLs without feeders (though I don't know if the
one in discussion here was such)

FWIW, I feel no guilt or shame in entering the ASL by any safe and
convenient route whether legal or not. A two-foot feeder lane is a kludge.

-dan

Rob Horton said:

Good points. However, we still can't ignore the fact that if the
cyclists had obeyed the red traffic lights then the poilice would not
have collected any fines and there would have been no screaming
headlines in the papers

Most likely.

Quoted message said:

and Oxford council would be fully exposed about its failings.

Less likely. It probably wouldn't have even made the news.

Quoted message said:

If we improve our behaviour we won't give "them" any
opportunity to complain about us.

Except that "they" aren't complaining about "our" bad behaviour because
it's bad behaviour, they're complaining that other people who are unlike
them appear to be getting the better end of the deal - e.g. by being
less impeded by congestion. How often do you hear motorists complain
about cyclist behaviour that is perfectly legal and safe (riding two
abreast, not using cycle facilities, taking the lane on the approach to
junctions, filtering[*], wearing lycra, not wearing a helmet, etc etc)?
Cyclists don't get singled out for being bad or wrong, they get
singled out for being different and therefore a threat to the hard of
thinking.

[*] acknowledging that this can be and often is also done unsafely, but
at low speed in a traffic jam it can be a reasonable way to make progress

-dan

On Thu, 24 May 2007 13:11:27 +0100 someone who may be Tom Crispin
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That may or may not be the case in England. Here there are a growing
number without such lanes, which is I think sensible.

Please note that very often the feeder lane is barely noticable, being
a broken diagonal line only a foot or two long.

I do not that. I stand by what I said.

I have also seen ones with "barely noticeable" feeder lanes.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Thu, 24 May 2007 15:42:23 +0100, Daniel Barlow <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tom Crispin said:

A feeder lane into an ASL box is a mandatory feature and is the only
legal way for a cyclists to enter an ASL box when the lights are red.

This is true, but not understood by all the people who paint roads.
I've definitely seen ASLs without feeders (though I don't know if the
one in discussion here was such)

FWIW, I feel no guilt or shame in entering the ASL by any safe and
convenient route whether legal or not. A two-foot feeder lane is a kludge.

Sometimes there's no other way into the reservoir other than to break
the law.

http://www.johnballcycling.org.uk/photos/junct

This junction in south London has a (pathetic) feeder lane in the
north ASL reservoir, but appears not to have one in the south ASL
reservoir. Also interesting to note is that there is an optional
cycle lane on the west aproach, which ends about 20m short of the
junction. It's not clear if there is an ASL reservoir at the west
junction.

Tom Crispin said:

On Thu, 24 May 2007 11:06:04 +0100, Marc Brett

Quoted message said:

(Parks Road & Broad Street) which might be mistaken for a cycle path. I
can't see a filter lane to the ASL.

www.chem.ox.ac.uk/oxfordtour/panohtml/oppositewadham.html

If you pan around, there's an optional cycle lane one side and a sign
indicating the start of a feeder lane on the other side.

Geraint said:

There is an ASL only
for southbound traffic; the lorry involved in that >collision was turning
left from eastbound to northbound

You are looking south towards the Sheldonian in this view.

Tim.

"Matt B" >> (Geraint Jones)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.

The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
dangerous driving.

Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

I may have got something wrong here, but since I recently began driving and
took notice of the speed limits for motor vehicles I have realised very few
lorries (over 7.5 tons I think) stick to the speed limit on the rural A
roads round here. Don't they have tachographs? Surely it would e easy to
stop this law breaking?

Mike Sales

Mike Sales said:

"Matt B" >> (Geraint Jones)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wrote:

> Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
> a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
> stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.
The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
dangerous driving.

Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

I may have got something wrong here, but since I recently began driving and
took notice of the speed limits for motor vehicles I have realised very few
lorries (over 7.5 tons I think) stick to the speed limit on the rural A
roads round here. Don't they have tachographs? Surely it would e easy to
stop this law breaking?

Are they causing huge numbers of accidents?

--
Matt B

On Thu, 24 May 2007 20:13:49 +0100, Matt B

matt.bourke'@nospam.london.com said:

Mike Sales said:

"Matt B" >> (Geraint Jones)

Quoted message said:

> wrote:
>
>> Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
>> a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
>> stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.
> The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
> dangerous driving.
>
> Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

I may have got something wrong here, but since I recently began driving and
took notice of the speed limits for motor vehicles I have realised very few
lorries (over 7.5 tons I think) stick to the speed limit on the rural A
roads round here. Don't they have tachographs? Surely it would e easy to
stop this law breaking?

Are they causing huge numbers of accidents?

Would you like to be the first?

Mike Sales said:

"Matt B" >> (Geraint Jones)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wrote:

> Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
> a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
> stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.
The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
dangerous driving.

Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

I may have got something wrong here, but since I recently began driving and
took notice of the speed limits for motor vehicles I have realised very few
lorries (over 7.5 tons I think) stick to the speed limit on the rural A
roads round here. Don't they have tachographs? Surely it would e easy to
stop this law breaking?

I was somewhat amazed this morning. Two trucks in front of me doing just
over 50 on a two lane A road. The second one was tailgating the first,
got fed up with waiting and overtook him on a long blind right hander.
Luckily nobody came the other way too soon and the one who did had time
to pull on to the hard shoulder to avoid him

Mike Sales said:

"Matt B" >> (Geraint Jones)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wrote:

> Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
> a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
> stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.

The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
dangerous driving.

Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

I may have got something wrong here, but since I recently began driving and
took notice of the speed limits for motor vehicles I have realised very few
lorries (over 7.5 tons I think) stick to the speed limit on the rural A
roads round here. Don't they have tachographs? Surely it would e easy to
stop this law breaking?

Mike Sales

they do, but keeping track of them is probably a fair challange. plus
there are a fair number of non uk lorries, which adds further levels of
red tape...

roger

On 24 May, 02:20, _ <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:46 +0000 (UTC), Geraint Jones wrote:

[ description of highly questionable use of police efforts snipped ]

10p says TrollB will be along shortly (having taken a break from defending
the high-heeled cyclist killer) to applaud this waste of time.

Why was it a waste of time?

Marc Brett said:

On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:46 +0000 (UTC),
[email hidden] (Geraint Jones)

Quoted message said:

Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.

The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
dangerous driving.

Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

The drivers always appear to be at fault, no matter what. Shall we
wait and see what happens at the trial/inquest?

Rob Horton yahoo@mr_horton.com said:

Marc Brett said:

On Thu, 24 May 2007 02:27:40 +0100, Marc Brett
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:46 +0000 (UTC),
[email hidden] (Geraint Jones)
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
> a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
> stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.
The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
dangerous driving.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

Quoted message said:

Further, it seems his was a low-speed accident with the left-turning
lorry. How familiar is that?

Quoted message said:

Further, Oxford council had been asked to improve the design of the
junction, which had been the scene of a number of non-fatal accidents,
but because there were no fatalities, it was low down on the priority
list. Besides, a pedestrian phase in the lights would impede motor
traffic flow.

Quoted message said:

I guess it's a lot easier to blitz cyclist for unrelated offences than
to grasp the nettles which caused this fatality -- poor road design,
cyclists who cuddle up to lorries' left hand side, lorries without
blind-spot mirrors or drivers who use them, dustcarts without
side-skirts.

Quoted message said:

The subliminal (and IMHO intentional) message in this exercise is that
cyclists are responsible for their own demise because they ride
irresponsibly ("Idiots at large on our roads" screams the Oxford Mail).
It neatly deflects the spotlight from Oxford council's failings and
motorists' responsibilities.

Good points. However, we still can't ignore the fact that if the
cyclists had obeyed the red traffic lights then the poilice would not
have collected any fines and there would have been no screaming
headlines in the papers and Oxford council would be fully exposed about
its failings. I know that motorists probably have the worse behaviour
with more disatrous consequences, but we can't use others bad behaviour
to justify our own. If we improve our behaviour we won't give "them" any
opportunity to complain about us.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

100%

Marc Brett said:

On Thu, 24 May 2007 09:25:25 +0100, [email hidden] (Roger

Merriman) said:

i don't have any sympathy for red light running. it's a bad idea.

It seems like an obviously bad idea, but like helmet wearing, there is
some cast doubt on this common sense conclusion, especially given the
TfL paper saying red-light jumpers (not runners) may be safer than those
who stick to the letter of the law.

gawd, so not stopping at red lights is now as dangerous as wearing
helmets, where do you lot get off on all this?

Top tip, stay away from lorries at junctions...

"The other view point, there is one you know..." <[email hidden]> wrote:
| On 24 May, 11:01, Marc Brett <[email hidden]> wrote:
| > On Thu, 24 May 2007 09:25:25 +0100, [email hidden] (Roger
| >
| > Merriman) wrote:
| > > i don't have any sympathy for red light running. it's a bad idea.
| >
| > It seems like an obviously bad idea, but like helmet wearing, there is
| > some cast doubt on this common sense conclusion, especially given the
| > TfL paper saying red-light jumpers (not runners) may be safer than those
| > who stick to the letter of the law.
|
| gawd, so not stopping at red lights is now as dangerous as wearing
| helmets, where do you lot get off on all this?

Concentrate at the back there: the claim (whatever its mertis) is
that stopping at red lights is now as dangerous as wearing helmets.

| Top tip, stay away from lorries at junctions...

Ah, yesbut; any fool can keep away from lorries if he tries, but the
seriously important problem is getting lorries to stay away from you
at junctions.

On 25 May 2007 03:07:17 -0700, "The other view point, there is one you

know... said:

Marc Brett said:

On Thu, 24 May 2007 09:25:25 +0100, [email hidden] (Roger

Merriman) said:

i don't have any sympathy for red light running. it's a bad idea.

It seems like an obviously bad idea, but like helmet wearing, there is
some cast doubt on this common sense conclusion, especially given the
TfL paper saying red-light jumpers (not runners) may be safer than those
who stick to the letter of the law.

gawd, so not stopping at red lights is now as dangerous as wearing
helmets, where do you lot get off on all this?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1695668.ece

Quoted message said:

Top tip, stay away from lorries at junctions...

....and if one comes up beside you and stops, jump the lights before he
crushes you.

On 25 May 2007 03:02:15 -0700, "The other view point, there is one you

know... said:

Marc Brett said:

On Wed, 23 May 2007 22:07:46 +0000 (UTC),
[email hidden] (Geraint Jones)

Quoted message said:

Third year engineering student Tsz Fok, 21, died after he was crushed by
a lorry at the Broad Street junction in April. Pc Higa said yesterday's
stop-check did not imply the student had run a red light.

The driver of that lorry was arrested on suspicion of causing death by
dangerous driving.

Shouldn't they be cracking down on lorry drivers?

The drivers always appear to be at fault, no matter what. Shall we
wait and see what happens at the trial/inquest?

Equally, "The cyclist always appear to be at fault, no matter what.
Shall we wait and see what happens at the trial/inquest?"

Hell no, say the police. Let's pander to the ABD and crack down on the
true cause of cyclist deaths -- the victims themselves!

The other view point, there is one you know... wrote on 25/05/2007 11:07
+0100:

Quoted message said:

Top tip, stay away from lorries at junctions...

Fine but any top tips for getting them to stay away from you at junctions?

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell