cracked kestrel fork

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Jim Beam, Feb 2, 2004.

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  1. Jim Beam

    Jim Beam Guest

    anyone else have this problem?

    bought a kestrel ems pro carbon fork with steel steerer and tried it this weekend. it's one of their
    cheaper "made in china" models.

    first large pothole... "CRACK". got off, checked it. no visible damage. got back on, rode another
    10, pothole... "CRACK". again, no visible damage, but now the fork's squeaking.

    turned around & rode back home at 5mph. carefully.

    i read tom nakashima's comment:

    >On the flip side, John Slawta of Landshark Bicycles talked about carbon forks. I asked >him
    >if he's ever seen failures. He told me he takes one hand and gingerly squeezes the fork
    >blades together before he installs them or sends them to paint. He's had a few actually
    >crack. Pretty scary,

    a while back, and sure enough, squeezing the blades on this fork causes more hideous
    cracking noises.

    tom, do you know which brands of forks john's had this happen with?

    anyone else have this problem?

    is it as a one-off or are all newer offshore kestrels this bad and to be avoided?

    need shared experience!

    thanks

    jb
     
    Tags:


  2. Jim: I wouldn't be quite so quick to assume the fork itself was the cause of the noise. An
    improperly installed headset or stem can make such cracking noises. However, you mention the fork
    now "squeaks"... could you elaborate a bit on what that means? How did you determine that it's
    actually the fork that's squeaking, and what can you do to cause it to squeak?

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

    "jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > anyone else have this problem?
    >
    > bought a kestrel ems pro carbon fork with steel steerer and tried it this weekend. it's one of
    > their cheaper "made in china" models.
    >
    > first large pothole... "CRACK". got off, checked it. no visible damage. got back on, rode another
    > 10, pothole... "CRACK". again, no visible damage, but now the fork's squeaking.
    >
    > turned around & rode back home at 5mph. carefully.
    >
    > i read tom nakashima's comment:
    >
    > >On the flip side, John Slawta of Landshark Bicycles talked about carbon forks. I asked
    >him
    > >if he's ever seen failures. He told me he takes one hand and gingerly squeezes the fork blades
    > >together before he installs them or sends them to paint. He's had a few actually crack. Pretty
    > >scary,
    >
    > a while back, and sure enough, squeezing the blades on this fork causes more hideous
    > cracking noises.
    >
    > tom, do you know which brands of forks john's had this happen with?
    >
    > anyone else have this problem?
    >
    > is it as a one-off or are all newer offshore kestrels this bad and to be avoided?
    >
    > need shared experience!
    >
    > thanks
    >
    > jb
     
  3. Jim Beam

    Jim Beam Guest

    having removed it, if i place it on two blocks of wood, one at each end and stand in the middle, it
    squeaks as i apply my weight. it did that all the way home after the second pothole.

    composites are not my specialty, but i know a little about them & i know the sound of failure - this
    one is definitely under way! and it's easy to continue the cracking by squeezing the fork blades
    together with one hand.

    what i really need to know is whether this particular fork is a statistical out-lier and therefore
    worth replacing with the same brand of fork [i deliberately chose one with a steel steerer because i
    weigh in at 210 and my frame only has a 1" steerer] or whether anyone else has similar experience
    with that brand of fork for a rider my weight.

    right now, i'm inclined to reurn for a refund, but am open to suggestions & greater experience.

    jb

    Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
    > Jim: I wouldn't be quite so quick to assume the fork itself was the cause of the noise. An
    > improperly installed headset or stem can make such cracking noises. However, you mention the fork
    > now "squeaks"... could you elaborate a bit on what that means? How did you determine that it's
    > actually the fork that's squeaking, and what can you do to cause it to squeak?
    >
    > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
    >
    >
    > "jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>anyone else have this problem?
    >>
    >>bought a kestrel ems pro carbon fork with steel steerer and tried it this weekend. it's one of
    >>their cheaper "made in china" models.
    >>
    >>first large pothole... "CRACK". got off, checked it. no visible damage. got back on, rode another
    >>10, pothole... "CRACK". again, no visible damage, but now the fork's squeaking.
    >>
    >>turned around & rode back home at 5mph. carefully.
    >>
    >>i read tom nakashima's comment:
    >>
    >> >On the flip side, John Slawta of Landshark Bicycles talked about carbon forks. I asked
    >>him
    >> >if he's ever seen failures. He told me he takes one hand and gingerly squeezes the fork blades
    >> >together before he installs them or sends them to paint. He's had a few actually crack. Pretty
    >> >scary,
    >>
    >>a while back, and sure enough, squeezing the blades on this fork causes more hideous
    >>cracking noises.
    >>
    >>tom, do you know which brands of forks john's had this happen with?
    >>
    >>anyone else have this problem?
    >>
    >>is it as a one-off or are all newer offshore kestrels this bad and to be avoided?
    >>
    >>need shared experience!
    >>
    >>thanks
    >>
    >>jb
    >>
    >
     
  4. eric_the_red

    eric_the_red New Member

    Joined:
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    I just put the same fork on my bike 2 weeks ago, only 2 rides so far, 30-40 miles each. I weigh a little less, about 185, and haven't heard any noises yet. I also put in a new headset, I don't know if that matters.

    Of course now that I've read about you're experience I'll be hearing noises every time I hit a bump.:D
     
  5. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    jim beam wrote:
    > anyone else have this problem? bought a kestrel ems pro carbon fork with steel steerer and tried
    > it this weekend. it's one of their cheaper "made in china" models.
    >
    > first large pothole... "CRACK". got off, checked it. no visible damage. got back on, rode another
    > 10, pothole... "CRACK". again, no visible damage, but now the fork's squeaking.
    >
    > turned around & rode back home at 5mph. carefully. i read tom nakashima's comment:
    >
    > >On the flip side, John Slawta of Landshark Bicycles talked about carbon forks. I asked >him if
    > >he's ever seen failures. He told me he takes one hand and gingerly squeezes the fork blades
    > >together before he installs them or sends them to paint. He's had a few actually crack. Pretty
    > >scary,
    >
    > a while back, and sure enough, squeezing the blades on this fork causes more hideous cracking
    > noises. tom, do you know which brands of forks john's had this happen with? anyone else have this
    > problem? is it as a one-off or are all newer offshore kestrels this bad and to be avoided? need
    > shared experience!

    There is a measurable incidence of failure in everything. In the case of your fork, don't ride it,
    call your dealer and get another one if it is .

    I won't let your disparaging "cheaper made in China" comment pass. That frame was deigned here, some
    of the tools were cut here, there is no reason to believe the quality is any different there.

    (If you had told me in 1979 that one day my 100%-USA computer would be replaced with a better HP
    Made In China, I would have balked).

    We knew the Kestrel original design team before they were Kestrel.(Kestrel grew out of a Trek
    research project quashed for overly high capital requirements. Those tools are huge!) We've been a
    Kestrel dealer from Day One and we enjoy some frequency. Our experience with Kestrel has been very
    positive with extremely low return rates, rumors notwithstanding.

    Like any honest vendor they replace their errors. If or when that burden becomes too large, they
    must either raise the price, limit the warranty or pursue some other change . Since they have
    been lowering prices and since the warranty remains ample, I don't see evidence of a change in
    return rates.

    It's my understanding that if Kestrel and the State of California had been able to agree on a larger
    paint facility, they'd still be made here. But that's become an unrealistic request nowadays.

    Back to your frame. If it turns out to have a fault and if Kestrel doesn't replace it promptly, then
    you've got every reason to bitch and I for one would back you on that.
    --
    Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  6. > composites are not my specialty, but i know a little about them & i know the sound of failure -
    > this one is definitely under way! and it's easy to continue the cracking by squeezing the fork
    > blades together with one hand.

    If you even think that failure is the issue, you should bring it back immediately to the shop you
    got it from and have them either demonstrate that what it's doing is normal (which would be odd) or
    replace it.

    Now, having re-read your original post, I do need to add that it's possible to damage a bicycle
    component by hitting a "large pothole", even if it's the first one, and even though it didn't cause
    you to crash. I doubt that's what happened, but it's possible. I'm reminded of customers who are
    upset that their new tire blew out on its very first ride (after coming across a very large piece of
    glass). It's unfortunate, but it's not the fault of the tire. I have personal expertise in this
    area; I still remember having just installed a brand new Clement Criterium Seta sew-up on my bike
    (which in today's $$$ would probably run about $100) and have it blown apart just as I left the
    driveway. Some small sharp piece of metal that had that tire's name on it, just waiting for it to
    come along. Was I upset? You bet! But it wasn't the tire's fault.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

    "jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > having removed it, if i place it on two blocks of wood, one at each end and stand in the middle,
    > it squeaks as i apply my weight. it did that all the way home after the second pothole.
    >
    > composites are not my specialty, but i know a little about them & i know the sound of failure -
    > this one is definitely under way! and it's easy to continue the cracking by squeezing the fork
    > blades together with one hand.
    >
    > what i really need to know is whether this particular fork is a statistical out-lier and therefore
    > worth replacing with the same brand of fork [i deliberately chose one with a steel steerer because
    > i weigh in at 210 and my frame only has a 1" steerer] or whether anyone else has similar
    > experience with that brand of fork for a rider my weight.
    >
    > right now, i'm inclined to reurn for a refund, but am open to suggestions & greater experience.
    >
    > jb
    >
    >
    > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
    > > Jim: I wouldn't be quite so quick to assume the fork itself was the
    cause
    > > of the noise. An improperly installed headset or stem can make such cracking noises. However,
    > > you mention the fork now "squeaks"... could
    you
    > > elaborate a bit on what that means? How did you determine that it's actually the fork that's
    > > squeaking, and what can you do to cause it to squeak?
    > >
    > > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
    > >
    > >
    > > "jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >>anyone else have this problem?
    > >>
    > >>bought a kestrel ems pro carbon fork with steel steerer and tried it this weekend. it's one of
    > >>their cheaper "made in china" models.
    > >>
    > >>first large pothole... "CRACK". got off, checked it. no visible damage. got back on, rode
    > >>another 10, pothole... "CRACK". again, no visible damage, but now the fork's squeaking.
    > >>
    > >>turned around & rode back home at 5mph. carefully.
    > >>
    > >>i read tom nakashima's comment:
    > >>
    > >> >On the flip side, John Slawta of Landshark Bicycles talked about carbon forks. I asked
    > >>him
    > >> >if he's ever seen failures. He told me he takes one hand and gingerly squeezes the fork blades
    > >> >together before he installs them or sends them to paint. He's had a
    few
    > >> >actually crack. Pretty scary,
    > >>
    > >>a while back, and sure enough, squeezing the blades on this fork causes more hideous cracking
    > >>noises.
    > >>
    > >>tom, do you know which brands of forks john's had this happen with?
    > >>
    > >>anyone else have this problem?
    > >>
    > >>is it as a one-off or are all newer offshore kestrels this bad and to be avoided?
    > >>
    > >>need shared experience!
    > >>
    > >>thanks
    > >>
    > >>jb
    > >>
    > >
    > >
     
  7. Jim Beam

    Jim Beam Guest

    A Muzi wrote:
    >
    > There is a measurable incidence of failure in everything. In the case of your fork, don't ride it,
    > call your dealer and get another one if it is .
    >
    > I won't let your disparaging "cheaper made in China" comment pass. That frame was deigned here,
    > some of the tools were cut here, there is no reason to believe the quality is any different there.
    >
    > (If you had told me in 1979 that one day my 100%-USA computer would be replaced with a better HP
    > Made In China, I would have balked).

    well, given the choice, i buy american made. call me a flag waving pervert, but i prefer to keep
    jobs at home. and yes, i'm prepared to pay more for that. sorry.

    >
    > We knew the Kestrel original design team before they were Kestrel.(Kestrel grew out of a Trek
    > research project quashed for overly high capital requirements. Those tools are huge!) We've been a
    > Kestrel dealer from Day One and we enjoy some frequency. Our experience with Kestrel has been very
    > positive with extremely low return rates, rumors notwithstanding.

    return rates are what i'm after. seems like you have extensive positive experience with kestrel,
    which is what i was asking for. the reason i ask about country of manufacture is that someone on
    roadbikereview.com has raised that question and i want to check with folks like yourself whether
    /you/ have noticed any difference in return rate since the change. my favorite lbs never sells
    kestrel forks so they were unable to offer an opinion.

    one of the reasons i bought the kestrel is that i test rode one on a friends bike and it was
    a /great/ ride. i was hoping mine would be the same. and the ride /was/ great, until it
    started cracking.

    also worth mentioning is the cosmetic weave. while not hugely important structurally, is a rough
    indicator of how good the build is. my friend's kestrel looks great. the weave on mine is all
    higgledy piggeldy and looks just thrown into the mold any old how.

    >
    > Like any honest vendor they replace their errors.

    yes, no problems there.

    > If or when that burden becomes too large, they must either raise the price, limit the warranty or
    > pursue some other change . Since they have been lowering prices and since the warranty remains
    > ample, I don't see evidence of a change in return rates.

    that would be logical over time, but it also depends on production cost. if costs are dropped
    significantly, a manufacturer can afford a much higher return rate. it's just on-the-ground
    dealer/user experience i want to hear.

    >
    > It's my understanding that if Kestrel and the State of California had been able to agree on a
    > larger paint facility, they'd still be made here. But that's become an unrealistic request
    > nowadays.
    >
    > Back to your frame. If it turns out to have a fault and if Kestrel doesn't replace it promptly,
    > then you've got every reason to bitch and I for one would back you on that.
     
  8. Pat Clancy

    Pat Clancy Guest

    A single reply ain't much good statistically, but FWIW, I have an EMS Pro fork with steel steerer.
    I've been riding it for three years, maybe 5000 miles, with no problems. I'm 190. However, I like to
    think I ride "light" and I don't recall any major hits.

    Pat Clancy

    jim beam <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > anyone else have this problem?
    >
    > bought a kestrel ems pro carbon fork with steel steerer and tried it this weekend. it's one of
    > their cheaper "made in china" models.
    >
    > first large pothole... "CRACK". got off, checked it. no visible damage. got back on, rode another
    > 10, pothole... "CRACK". again, no visible damage, but now the fork's squeaking.
    >
    > turned around & rode back home at 5mph. carefully.
    >
    > i read tom nakashima's comment:
    >
    > >On the flip side, John Slawta of Landshark Bicycles talked about carbon forks. I asked >him if
    > >he's ever seen failures. He told me he takes one hand and gingerly squeezes the fork blades
    > >together before he installs them or sends them to paint. He's had a few actually crack. Pretty
    > >scary,
    >
    > a while back, and sure enough, squeezing the blades on this fork causes more hideous
    > cracking noises.
    >
    > tom, do you know which brands of forks john's had this happen with?
    >
    > anyone else have this problem?
    >
    > is it as a one-off or are all newer offshore kestrels this bad and to be avoided?
    >
    > need shared experience!
    >
    > thanks
    >
    > jb
     
  9. Steve Knight

    Steve Knight Guest

    >well, given the choice, i buy american made. call me a flag waving pervert, but i prefer to keep
    >jobs at home. and yes, i'm prepared to pay more for that. sorry.

    what components do you ride with then??

    --
    Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-
    toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
     
  10. Skuke

    Skuke Guest

    On 4 Feb 2004 06:54:57 -0800, Pat Clancy wrote:

    > A single reply ain't much good statistically, but FWIW, I have an EMS Pro fork with steel steerer.
    > I've been riding it for three years, maybe 5000 miles, with no problems. I'm 190. However, I like
    > to think I ride "light" and I don't recall any major hits.
    >

    I have in my possesion a Kestral EMS fork with steel steerer from around 1994. It's in three pieces.
    2 pieces each about 9-10" long with a dropout on each end and the steerer with the remainder of the
    blades attached (5-6").

    The result of this failure was a broken collar bone and concussion with several minutes of
    unconciousness. Cause of failure is unknown. My friend, the unlucky rider, weighs about 125 lbs and
    was just cruising down a street. No pot holes, no animal remnants, no sticks, no nothing that would
    be a "smoking gun". There also was no history of abuse or crashes. There was no history of
    "creaking" or anything else unusual prior to failure. I don't know how many miles were on the fork
    before failure. I'd guestimate 2 years at 3-4k miles per year.

    Statistically, you still don't have enough data, but it's a start!
    --
    Skuke Reverse the domain name to send email
     
  11. Kenny Lee

    Kenny Lee Guest

    skuke wrote:

    > I have in my possesion a Kestral EMS fork with steel steerer from around 1994. It's in three
    > pieces. 2 pieces each about 9-10" long with a dropout on each end and the steerer with the
    > remainder of the blades attached (5-6").
    >
    > The result of this failure was a broken collar bone and concussion with several minutes of
    > unconciousness. Cause of failure is unknown. My friend, the unlucky rider, weighs about 125 lbs
    > and was just cruising down a street. No pot holes, no animal remnants, no sticks, no nothing that
    > would be a "smoking gun". There also was no history of abuse or crashes. There was no history of
    > "creaking" or anything else unusual prior to failure. I don't know how many miles were on the fork
    > before failure. I'd guestimate 2 years at 3-4k miles per year.
    >
    > Statistically, you still don't have enough data, but it's a start!
    Skuke,

    Can you post some pictures of this failed fork?

    Kenny Lee
     
  12. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    skuke <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I have in my possesion a Kestral EMS fork with steel steerer from around 1994. It's in three
    >pieces. 2 pieces each about 9-10" long with a dropout on each end and the steerer with the
    >remainder of the blades attached (5-6").
    >
    >The result of this failure was a broken collar bone and concussion with several minutes of
    >unconciousness. Cause of failure is unknown. My friend, the unlucky rider, weighs about 125 lbs and
    >was just cruising down a street. No pot holes, no animal remnants, no sticks, no nothing that would
    >be a "smoking gun". There also was no history of abuse or crashes. There was no history of
    >"creaking" or anything else unusual prior to failure. I don't know how many miles were on the fork
    >before failure. I'd guestimate 2 years at 3-4k miles per year.
    >
    >Statistically, you still don't have enough data, but it's a start!

    A buddy of mine had the same thing happen to his Kestrel EMS fork. There was no doubt about the
    cause though - there was a large squirrel still tangled in the front wheel. Or more accurately -
    what was LEFT of a large squirrel.

    Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  13. Jim Beam

    Jim Beam Guest

    looked at your pics too. yuk.

    is your friend certain there was no sounds from the fork at any point prior to failure? i ask for
    two reasons:

    1. on mine, after inspecting after the first cracking noise and seeing no damage, i wondered if
    i'd been imagining it. even though i've heard composites fail before, i was doubting my
    diagnosis. until it happened again. so, because your friend's fork didn't fail completely the
    first time doesn't mean there was no audible progression before failure - it may have been
    ignored for some reason.

    2. i've seen people swear up, down & sideways that there was nothing wrong with a piece of machinery
    before it suddenly & mysteriously stopped working. best one was a neighbor. "my car won't start".
    after asking what was up & whether he'd done anything, he swore that he'd done nothing - it
    worked one moment & stopped the next. i looked under the hood & noticed that the plug leads were
    unusually clean, as was the distributor cap. "no, didn't touch those" he said. twice. after
    another couple of minutes checking, i came back to the plug leads. "no, definitely didn't touch
    those". [getting a little testy by this point]. but checking the firing order, there was no
    doubt, the plug leads had been taken off & put back wrong. fixed that, turned the ignition, car
    started first time!

    my opinion based on this experience: for whatever reason, people often don't paint a complete
    picture of observable circumstances before a failure.

    jb

    skuke wrote:
    > On 4 Feb 2004 06:54:57 -0800, Pat Clancy wrote:
    >
    >
    >>A single reply ain't much good statistically, but FWIW, I have an EMS Pro fork with steel steerer.
    >>I've been riding it for three years, maybe 5000 miles, with no problems. I'm 190. However, I like
    >>to think I ride "light" and I don't recall any major hits.
    >>
    >
    >
    > I have in my possesion a Kestral EMS fork with steel steerer from around 1994. It's in three
    > pieces. 2 pieces each about 9-10" long with a dropout on each end and the steerer with the
    > remainder of the blades attached (5-6").
    >
    > The result of this failure was a broken collar bone and concussion with several minutes of
    > unconciousness. Cause of failure is unknown. My friend, the unlucky rider, weighs about 125 lbs
    > and was just cruising down a street. No pot holes, no animal remnants, no sticks, no nothing that
    > would be a "smoking gun". There also was no history of abuse or crashes. There was no history of
    > "creaking" or anything else unusual prior to failure. I don't know how many miles were on the fork
    > before failure. I'd guestimate 2 years at 3-4k miles per year.
    >
    > Statistically, you still don't have enough data, but it's a start!
     
  14. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > skuke <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >I have in my possesion a Kestral EMS fork with steel steerer from around 1994. It's in three
    > >pieces. 2 pieces each about 9-10" long with a dropout on each end and the steerer with the
    > >remainder of the blades attached (5-6").
    > >
    > >The result of this failure was a broken collar bone and concussion with several minutes of
    > >unconciousness. Cause of failure is unknown. My friend, the unlucky rider, weighs about 125 lbs
    > >and was just cruising down a street. No pot holes, no animal remnants, no sticks, no nothing that
    > >would be a "smoking gun". There also was no history of abuse or crashes. There was no history of
    > >"creaking" or anything else unusual prior to failure. I don't know how many miles were on the
    > >fork before failure. I'd guestimate 2 years at 3-4k miles per year.
    > >
    > >Statistically, you still don't have enough data, but it's a start!
    >
    > A buddy of mine had the same thing happen to his Kestrel EMS fork. There was no doubt about the
    > cause though - there was a large squirrel still tangled in the front wheel. Or more accurately -
    > what was LEFT of a large squirrel.
    >
    > Mark Hickey
    >

    Dear Mark,

    A squirrel? No wonder your friend's fork failed! A mere kestrel is hardly up to tangling with a squirrel--
    a mouse is more its size:

    "Falcons and hawks were allotted to degrees and orders of men according to rank and station. For
    instance, to the emperor the eagle and vulture, to royalty the jerfalcons, to an earl the peregrine,
    to a yeoman the goshawk, to a priest the sparrow-hawk,

    and to a knave or servant the useless kestrel."

    http://88.1911encyclopedia.org/F/FA/FALCONRY.htm

    Time to re-read T.H. White's "The Goshawk" and remember my pet parrots, hawks, and owls.

    Carl Fogel
     
  15. Skuke

    Skuke Guest

    On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 11:26:44 +0800, Kenny Lee wrote:

    > Can you post some pictures of this failed fork?
    >
    > Kenny Lee

    Ok, I posted some at: http://www.geocities.com/skuke89/fork.html Sorry for the formatting. I just
    "threw" it together.

    I took the photo quite a while ago because I was gonna bring the fork to Kestral since I don't live
    too far. I wanted the pics since I figured I'd never get the fork back. Anyhow, never got around to
    dropping it off so maybe I'll reshoot the pics with a tape measure in the shot for reference.

    You actually can assemble the broken pieces and everything lines up quite nicely. There is no
    definite "impact" area like you might expect to see from a stick or animal. Also, we don't suspect
    an animal because there was no blood or fur. It's also hard to determine if one blade failed first
    and that cause an overload of the second blade.

    Lots of questions that I'd like answers to since I have an identical era fork on my 1995
    CarbonFrames. Hence my ( lackadaisical) desire to bring it to Kestral.

    --
    Skuke Reverse the domain name to send email
     
  16. Jim Beam

    Jim Beam Guest

    good question! like i say, i'd buy american if i had a choice, but what is there? avid? american
    company, made in taiwan. ritchey? same. fsa? same. so that leaves italian or japanese.

    i /do/ have a *beautiful* american frame though.

    jb

    Steve Knight wrote:
    >>well, given the choice, i buy american made. call me a flag waving pervert, but i prefer to keep
    >>jobs at home. and yes, i'm prepared to pay more for that. sorry.
    >
    >
    > what components do you ride with then??
     
  17. Skuke

    Skuke Guest

    On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 08:41:18 GMT, jim beam wrote:

    > looked at your pics too. yuk.

    I hope you mean "yuck" as in "that's very nasty" and not "yuk" as in laughing ("yuk yuk yuk"). No
    desire to be the spelling police, but in this context, laughing at someone's crash from a fork
    failure doesn't sit well with me.

    >
    > is your friend certain there was no sounds from the fork at any point prior to failure? i ask for
    > two reasons:
    >
    > 1. on mine, after inspecting after the first cracking noise and seeing no damage, i wondered if
    > i'd been imagining it.
    <SNIP>

    >
    > 2. i've seen people swear up, down & sideways that there was nothing wrong with a piece of
    > machinery before it suddenly & mysteriously stopped working.
    <SNIP>

    That's what he told me about a year after the crash. No relation to the long time period between the
    crash and me talking to him though. Perhaps he had some "selective" memory and "forgot" about the
    creaking. Perhaps the concussion had something to do with it. Perhaps post tramatic stress??

    But I took his words at face value because:

    1. He didn't have a reason to lie to me. Kestral perhaps, but not me. When he told me the story, I
    did not yet form the idea to take the fork to Kestral myself. Maybe he just tells everyone the
    same "lie" so he doesn't have to remember what was told to the last guy.

    2. He was a junior national cyclocross champion so he knows the difference between abusing a bike,
    riding hard, riding light... Of course, he may also have a different definition of "abuse of a
    bike". Also, he has great bike handling skills and should therefore be able to avoid more
    potholes and other objects. That would minimize the number of impacts seen by the fork.

    3. He's a machinist and very mechanically inclined. He understands that creaking noise coming from
    the front end of a bike probably is not good. His bike history probably tells him this as well
    although when he raced, carbon fiber was not available (to cyclist in general).

    Another option is that *I* could be full of shit and made everything up! Hey, it is a NG on the
    internet! You'll have to decide that one. But the original poster wanted info on EMS forks and I
    complied. Somebody wanted pics and I complied. ...I ain't that good at photo editing :)

    All I can say is I ride with the same fork and am very conscious of noises coming from the front
    end. However, I do ride and feel confident in the fork. Confident, but conscious.

    > my opinion based on this experience: for whatever reason, people often don't paint a complete
    > picture of observable circumstances before a failure.

    I understand you're not accusing anybody of any deliberate attempts at deception and that you're
    just providing other possibilities.

    --
    Skuke Reverse the domain name to send email
     
  18. Steve Knight

    Steve Knight Guest

    On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 08:09:49 GMT, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

    >good question! like i say, i'd buy american if i had a choice, but what is there? avid? american
    >company, made in taiwan. ritchey? same. fsa? same. so that leaves italian or japanese.
    >
    >i /do/ have a *beautiful* american frame though.
    >
    anymore it is almost impossible to buy american. a lot of times parts are made outside the us. or
    american is too spendy. or if it is the same price it will suck. we as americans have blown the buy
    american deal. it's too late now to change it.

    --
    Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices See http://www.knight-
    toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
     
  19. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    skuke <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 08:41:18 GMT, jim beam wrote:
    >
    > > looked at your pics too. yuk.
    >
    > I hope you mean "yuck" as in "that's very nasty" and not "yuk" as in laughing ("yuk yuk yuk"). No
    > desire to be the spelling police, but in this context, laughing at someone's crash from a fork
    > failure doesn't sit well with me.
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    > > is your friend certain there was no sounds from the fork at any point prior to failure? i ask
    > > for two reasons:
    > >
    > > 1. on mine, after inspecting after the first cracking noise and seeing no damage, i wondered if
    > > i'd been imagining it.
    > <SNIP>
    >
    > >
    > > 2. i've seen people swear up, down & sideways that there was nothing wrong with a piece of
    > > machinery before it suddenly & mysteriously stopped working.
    > <SNIP>
    >
    >
    > That's what he told me about a year after the crash. No relation to the long time period between
    > the crash and me talking to him though. Perhaps he had some "selective" memory and "forgot" about
    > the creaking. Perhaps the concussion had something to do with it. Perhaps post tramatic stress??
    >
    > But I took his words at face value because:
    >
    > 1. He didn't have a reason to lie to me. Kestral perhaps, but not me. When he told me the story, I
    > did not yet form the idea to take the fork to Kestral myself. Maybe he just tells everyone the
    > same "lie" so he doesn't have to remember what was told to the last guy.
    >
    > 2. He was a junior national cyclocross champion so he knows the difference between abusing a bike,
    > riding hard, riding light... Of course, he may also have a different definition of "abuse of a
    > bike". Also, he has great bike handling skills and should therefore be able to avoid more
    > potholes and other objects. That would minimize the number of impacts seen by the fork.
    >
    > 3. He's a machinist and very mechanically inclined. He understands that creaking noise coming from
    > the front end of a bike probably is not good. His bike history probably tells him this as well
    > although when he raced, carbon fiber was not available (to cyclist in general).
    >
    > Another option is that *I* could be full of shit and made everything up! Hey, it is a NG on the
    > internet! You'll have to decide that one. But the original poster wanted info on EMS forks and I
    > complied. Somebody wanted pics and I complied. ...I ain't that good at photo editing :)
    >
    > All I can say is I ride with the same fork and am very conscious of noises coming from the front
    > end. However, I do ride and feel confident in the fork. Confident, but conscious.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > my opinion based on this experience: for whatever reason, people often don't paint a complete
    > > picture of observable circumstances before a failure.
    >
    >
    > I understand you're not accusing anybody of any deliberate attempts at deception and that you're
    > just providing other possibilities.

    Dear Jim and Skuke,

    Yuck--unpleasant-looking:

    http://www.geocities.com/skuke89/fork.html

    I assume that one fork leg failed and the sudden increase in stress broke the other one in half
    almost instantly.

    What I'm wondering is which fork leg broke first.

    My guess is that the less ragged fork leg fractured first. It would be held in place until it
    cracked completely through.

    Once the first fork leg was effectively broken, the other fork took the whole load, bent, and broke
    violently, peeling off those long fiber strips just like a broken tree branch trailing bark strips.

    Any strips not cracked completely through on the first fork leg would snap off short and clean, like
    perforated tractor strips on computer paper.

    At least, that's my theory. Does one fork leg really look like a neater break with shorter strips,
    while the other looks more ragged, with longer strips?

    Carl Fogel
     
  20. Jim Beam

    Jim Beam Guest

    so, replaced the kestrel with a reynolds ouzo comp. again, metal [aluminum] steerer tube. slightly
    different constuction in that this has an alloy crown with both the blades bonded to it, not the one-
    piece constuction for both blades like the kestrel. the steerer on the reynolds is also interesting
    because it has an extreme wall thickness taper - the walls appear as thick as the center hole near
    the crown. very strong looking.

    this time, did the squeeze test on the renolds before going to the trouble of fitting. no cracking
    noises - seemed stiff. great!

    put in on the bike, take it for a spin around the block. no mechanical problems, great stiffness in
    the plane of the frame, that lovely carbon ride, but oh, what a lateral noodle! riding no hands, i
    can hardly keep a straight line! [yes, the headset is adjusted ok.] haven't taken it on a shimmy
    test yet, but do not expect good results.

    so, it looks like i'll be abandoning this carbon fork experiment. it seems to be great for you
    lighter folks, but it's no game for a clydesdale to play. steel fork goes back on.

    :(

    very disappointed.

    jb.
     
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