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Crank Length Selection

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Cycling Equipment
Published
18 February 2007
Last activity
22 February 2007
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Scotty
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  1. ddog said:
    sergio said:
    * * Chas said:

    Last summer I changed out the 180mm cranks on my old MTB for a more modern
    175mm crankset. I can't tell any difference.

    A bike I used to ride was equipped with an unmatched pair, 175 on one
    side and 172.5 on the other one. I realized it was so just by chance,
    after a couple of years.

    Sergio
    Pisa

    Sergio,

    If your right side was longer and left leg was stronger, that may have
    been a custom balanced crank fit if you never noticed with 3/32"
    longer crank on weak side. Otherwise, you were optimizing power from
    your strong leg while building your weaker side up from reduced
    leverage. My legs are real strong though so might be insignificant
    either way for myself or you since didn't notice empirically. Either
    way it may be balanced forces or help balance strength training either
    way, or it is negligible. Psychologically may be the greatest
    ehhancement/detraction unless a constraint of too tall or too short;
    or in effect less than 90 degree knee bend or can't touch the pedals
    without rupturing yourself (assuming you have a 'normal' crotched seat
    - ouch!). I really do feel your pain if you have a crotched seat guys!

    Dear DD,

    A 175.0 mm pedal drops 2.5 mm lower than a 172.5 mm pedal, about a
    tenth of an inch.

    The difference in length between your right and left leg is probably
    twice that much (or more):

    "A majority of people have a measurable leg length difference of 1/4"
    or more."

    http://www.clearlyadjustable.com/leg-length-discrepancy.html?GLLDdisc

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  2. "Lou Holtman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    ddog said:
    sergio said:

    On 18 Feb, 06:05, "* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    > Last summer I changed out the 180mm cranks on my old MTB for a more


    modern

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > 175mm crankset. I can't tell any difference.
    A bike I used to ride was equipped with an unmatched pair, 175 on one
    side and 172.5 on the other one. I realized it was so just by chance,
    after a couple of years.

    Sergio
    Pisa

    Sergio,

    If your right side was longer and left leg was stronger, that may have
    been a custom balanced crank fit if you never noticed with 3/32"
    longer crank on weak side. Otherwise, you were optimizing power from
    your strong leg while building your weaker side up from reduced
    leverage. My legs are real strong though so might be insignificant
    either way for myself or you since didn't notice empirically. Either
    way it may be balanced forces or help balance strength training either
    way, or it is negligible. Psychologically may be the greatest
    ehhancement/detraction unless a constraint of too tall or too short;
    or in effect less than 90 degree knee bend or can't touch the pedals
    without rupturing yourself (assuming you have a 'normal' crotched seat
    - ouch!). I really do feel your pain if you have a crotched seat guys!

    It's 2.5 mm difference for Gods sake. Two different socks have the same
    effect.

    Lou
    --

    That's what I was suggesting in my post. There are probably people who are
    sensitive enough to feel a 2.5mm difference but how many?

    Look at a ruler. Now hold your thumb and forefinger 2.5mm (1/8"😉 apart and
    compare that gap with the length of your legs and feet combined.

    Issues like "G" factor, the width between your feet on the pedals has more
    of an impact than minor differences in crank arm length.

    Most people have different length legs. I had to have a total hip
    replacement due to AVN in my right hip. Prior to surgery my right leg was
    3/4" shorter than my left because of joint deterioration. Post surgery
    it's 1/2" longer. It took a month or so for my body to adjust but now I
    cant tell any difference.

    Very few people have the same size right and left feet and very few shoes
    are identically sized right and left.

    The capacity of the human body to adjust to external conditions is
    amazing.

    Chas.

  3. "Lou Holtman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    ddog said:
    Lou Holtman said:

    Ok I challenge you if you could feel the difference if someone


    changed

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    one of your cranks with a 2.5 mm shorter one without telling you. My
    guess is you don't and you don't get hurt either. Just my 2 cents.

    Lou, 170, 172.5 and 175 mm cranks on his bikes.

    Lou,

    Because you feel no difference, are you inferring that NO ONE should
    either and have your exact anatomical parameters? Not only is this
    unwittingly bold to suggest 'nothing matters' or has critical and
    specific biomechanical bounds (for example, there will be some 2.5mm
    difference that will effect EVERYONE, just different limits), but to
    propose it in a format that it is 'Gods sake' and you are his
    interpretor is beyond 'just your 2 cents'.

    How can anybody find out scientific that a 2.5 mm change in cranklength
    make a difference? Do the people who say they can
    feel that difference also adjust there saddle height every time they
    wear different shorts with different paddings or different shoes? I
    think there is an upper and a lower limit (there has to be) and I am
    convinced that for most people 2.5 mm is within those limits.

    Lou
    --

    Some people who ride a lot may be able to sense a 5mm difference, a lot
    more might be able to tell a 10mm difference but I suspect that the
    average rider wont feel any difference.

    Chas.

  4. "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    * * Chas said:


    "Scotty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    What is the theory behind picking a crank arm length ?
    So many factors are involved. Frame size, leg length, or femur


    length,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    shoe

    Quoted message said:

    size, riding style. Everyone put in their opinions if they wish.

    In general better quality cranks come in 2.5mm length increments from
    165mm to 180mm long with 170mm being the standard crank length for most
    road bikes.

    A lot of track bikes use 165mm cranks for ground clearance and many


    MTBs

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    came with 180mm cranks for climbing.

    I was in a conversation today with someone who rides 177.5mm cranks. He
    claimed that he had problems with 175mm and 180mm cranks and he could


    tell

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the difference.

    Take a look at a ruler or scale:

    2.5mm is .098" or less than 1/8"
    5mm is .197 which is slightly more than 3/16"
    10mm is .394" or slightly more than 3/8"

    A 2.5mm or 5mm change doesn't seem very significant compared to the


    length

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    of your legs and feet but some people are probably sensitive enough to
    feel a 2.5mm difference.

    I have 5 road bikes. Several have 175mm cranks and I can't tell any
    difference when I switch back and forth between them and my bikes with
    170mm cranks . Some time ago I experimented with 180mm cranks for
    climbing. I could feel a difference over 170mm cranks but not 175mm.

    Last summer I changed out the 180mm cranks on my old MTB for a more


    modern

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    175mm crankset. I can't tell any difference.

    I ride 175s. If you put on 177.5, and didn't raise the saddle, I'd
    notice. If you raised the saddle 2.5mm probably wouldn't notice when
    I started pedalling, but think I might notice over time that I was
    feeling some joint strain at the bottom of the stroke. Maybe.

    2.5 mm shorter cranks I probably wouldn't notice at all.

    --
    JT

    I agree, saddle height is probably more of an issue than crank length. If
    I haven't ridden for a long time, I feel better with the saddle 1/8" to
    1/4" lower. As I get back into shape, I raise my saddle and move it back a
    little.

    Toe clip length or cleat position with clipless pedals can also make a
    difference.

    Chas.

  5. Scotty said:

    What is the theory behind picking a crank arm length ?
    So many factors are involved. Frame size, leg length, or femur length, shoe
    size, riding style. Everyone put in their opinions if they wish.

    The rule I follow which makes the most sense FOR ME is the 2.16 x inseam
    (in CM) -- my inseam measures out to 84, multiply that by 2.16 and you
    get 181.

    http://www.nettally.com/palmk/crankset.html

    I ride 180s on my mountain bikes and 177.5 on my road bikes. The reason
    for the shorter cranks on my road bike is that I find it easier to climb
    (and sprint) out of the saddle.

    fwiw, the longer the crank, the less my lower back hurts ... going back
    normal lengths reintroduces the lower back pain and cramping in the
    calves.

  6. ddog said:
    Lou Holtman said:

    Ok I challenge you if you could feel the difference if someone changed
    one of your cranks with a 2.5 mm shorter one without telling you. My
    guess is you don't and you don't get hurt either. Just my 2 cents.

    Lou, 170, 172.5 and 175 mm cranks on his bikes.

    Lou,

    Because you feel no difference, are you inferring that NO ONE should
    either and have your exact anatomical parameters?

    There are a lot of things I can't feel the difference about that
    matter in athletics.

    --
    JT
    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  7. Lou Holtman said:
    ddog said:
    Lou Holtman said:

    Ok I challenge you if you could feel the difference if someone changed
    one of your cranks with a 2.5 mm shorter one without telling you. My
    guess is you don't and you don't get hurt either. Just my 2 cents.

    Lou, 170, 172.5 and 175 mm cranks on his bikes.

    Lou,

    Because you feel no difference, are you inferring that NO ONE should
    either and have your exact anatomical parameters? Not only is this
    unwittingly bold to suggest 'nothing matters' or has critical and
    specific biomechanical bounds (for example, there will be some 2.5mm
    difference that will effect EVERYONE, just different limits), but to
    propose it in a format that it is 'Gods sake' and you are his
    interpretor is beyond 'just your 2 cents'.

    How can anybody find out scientific that a 2.5 mm change in cranklength
    make a difference?

    Quoted message said:

    Do the people who say they can
    feel that difference also adjust there saddle height every time they
    wear different shorts with different paddings or different shoes?

    I always where the same model shoe, the same orthotic and the same
    thickness socks when I ride my bike athleticially. Sometimes I have
    two layers of clothes on my butt and sometimes one. The difference,
    compressed, is less than 2.5mm.

    Quoted message said:

    I
    think there is an upper and a lower limit (there has to be) and I am
    convinced that for most people 2.5 mm is within those limits.

    It depends. I couldn't feel the difference between 2.5mm in cranks
    that are both shorter than what I use. I couldn't feel the difference
    between cranks that are both longer. I could feel the difference
    between just right and too long for sure.

    --
    JT
    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  8. Lou Holtman said:

    How can anybody find out scientific that a 2.5 mm change in cranklength
    make a difference? Do the people who say they can
    feel that difference also adjust there saddle height every time they
    wear different shorts with different paddings or different shoes? I
    think there is an upper and a lower limit (there has to be) and I am
    convinced that for most people 2.5 mm is within those limits.

    Lou, if you can't feel something does that mean it doesn't matter?
    --
    JT
    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  9. Quoted message said:

    A 175.0 mm pedal drops 2.5 mm lower than a 172.5 mm pedal, about a
    tenth of an inch.

    The difference in length between your right and left leg is probably
    twice that much (or more):

    "A majority of people have a measurable leg length difference of 1/4"
    or more."

    So what? My leg length doesn't change much so I don't see what your
    point is.

    (My functional leg length did change a little over a long period of
    time due to some forms of soft tissue work. That affected my bike
    fit.)
    --
    JT
    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  10. * * Chas said:

    Look at a ruler. Now hold your thumb and forefinger 2.5mm (1/8"😉 apart and
    compare that gap with the length of your legs and feet combined.

    Place your finger into the opening of a vise that is the same width as
    your finger. Now tighten the vise 2.5mm. Do you notice anything?
    Does it matter.

    Take your brake pad and adjust them so they are rubbing just a little
    on the rim on one side. I sure can't notice that. Can you? Does it
    matter? I think it does.
    --
    JT
    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  11. John Forrest Tomlinson said:
    Quoted message said:

    A 175.0 mm pedal drops 2.5 mm lower than a 172.5 mm pedal, about a
    tenth of an inch.

    The difference in length between your right and left leg is probably
    twice that much (or more):

    "A majority of people have a measurable leg length difference of 1/4"
    or more."

    So what? My leg length doesn't change much so I don't see what your
    point is.

    (My functional leg length did change a little over a long period of
    time due to some forms of soft tissue work. That affected my bike
    fit.)

    Dear John,

    In all likelihood, one of your legs is longer than the other by 1/4"
    or more, like most people's legs.

    That's about twice as much as the difference in distance from your hip
    to pedals attached to 175.0 and 172.5 mm cranks.

    When walking or running, few of us can tell which of our legs is
    shorter. Indeed, most of us don't even know if we're waddling around
    on slightly mismatched legs, any more than we notice that we're up to
    an inch shorter by the end of the day, due to the compression of our
    spinal disks.

    (The change in spinal length during the day says something about how
    sensitive we really are to the distance from the seat to the
    handlebars.)

    Anyone sufficiently curious can ask a friend to swap four 175 and
    172.5 crank arms randomly on a bike for a dozen rides, left and right,
    and report how well he could tell the difference without looking at
    the numbers on the cranks.

    A more entertaining experiment would involve leaving the crank
    unchanged and lying to a self-described sensitive rider, telling him
    that his 175.0 mm cranks were being changed to 172.5 mm and seeing if
    he detected the imaginary changes.

    A lot of RBT posters have mentioned that they didn't notice what
    turned out to be mismatched cranks.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  12. John Forrest Tomlinson said:
    * * Chas said:

    Look at a ruler. Now hold your thumb and forefinger 2.5mm (1/8"😉 apart and
    compare that gap with the length of your legs and feet combined.

    Place your finger into the opening of a vise that is the same width as
    your finger. Now tighten the vise 2.5mm. Do you notice anything?
    Does it matter.

    Take your brake pad and adjust them so they are rubbing just a little
    on the rim on one side. I sure can't notice that. Can you? Does it
    matter? I think it does.

    Dear John,

    I think that you're misunderstanding the scale involved.

    It's approximately 1000 mm from your hip to the floor.

    A 175 mm crank drops 2.5 mm lower than a 172.5 mm crank.

    So the leg extension difference is about 997.5 mm versus 1000.0 mm, or
    0.25%.

    A finger is approximately 20 mm wide.

    So for roughly the same scale effect, tighten the vise only about 0.05
    mm, not 2.5 mm.

    That 0.05 mm is only about two thousandths of an inch, the thickness
    of a sheet of the thin paper used in telephone books.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  13. On 2007-02-18, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    In all likelihood, one of your legs is longer than the other by 1/4"
    or more, like most people's legs.

    So should I use a longer crank arm for my shorter leg, or the other way
    round?

  14. Ben C said:

    On 2007-02-18, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
    [...]

    Quoted message said:

    In all likelihood, one of your legs is longer than the other by 1/4"
    or more, like most people's legs.

    So should I use a longer crank arm for my shorter leg, or the other way
    round?

    Dear Ben,

    If one of your legs is much shorter than the other, a built-up shoe or
    sole insert is the usual solution.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  15. John Forrest Tomlinson said:
    Lou Holtman said:

    How can anybody find out scientific that a 2.5 mm change in cranklength
    make a difference? Do the people who say they can
    feel that difference also adjust there saddle height every time they
    wear different shorts with different paddings or different shoes? I
    think there is an upper and a lower limit (there has to be) and I am
    convinced that for most people 2.5 mm is within those limits.

    Lou, if you can't feel something does that mean it doesn't matter?

    No, but it doesn't matter to me and I believe for most people.

    Lou
    --
    Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

  16. "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    * * Chas said:

    Look at a ruler. Now hold your thumb and forefinger 2.5mm (1/8"😉 apart


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    compare that gap with the length of your legs and feet combined.

    Place your finger into the opening of a vise that is the same width as
    your finger. Now tighten the vise 2.5mm. Do you notice anything?
    Does it matter.

    Take your brake pad and adjust them so they are rubbing just a little
    on the rim on one side. I sure can't notice that. Can you? Does it
    matter? I think it does.
    --
    JT

    As I stated, a minor difference in crank length DOES matter for some
    people.... but the majority of riders wouldn't notice the difference.
    There are too many other parameters that most riders are unaware of that
    can have a larger affect of cycling comfort and performance than 2.5mm
    crank length differences.

    Q factor for instance, the width between your feet on the pedals can have
    a large influence on knee and hip problems.

    Chas.

  17. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    John Forrest Tomlinson said:
    * * Chas said:

    Look at a ruler. Now hold your thumb and forefinger 2.5mm (1/8"😉 apart


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    compare that gap with the length of your legs and feet combined.

    Place your finger into the opening of a vise that is the same width as
    your finger. Now tighten the vise 2.5mm. Do you notice anything?
    Does it matter.

    Take your brake pad and adjust them so they are rubbing just a little
    on the rim on one side. I sure can't notice that. Can you? Does it
    matter? I think it does.

    Dear John,

    I think that you're misunderstanding the scale involved.

    It's approximately 1000 mm from your hip to the floor.

    A 175 mm crank drops 2.5 mm lower than a 172.5 mm crank.

    So the leg extension difference is about 997.5 mm versus 1000.0 mm, or
    0.25%.

    A finger is approximately 20 mm wide.

    So for roughly the same scale effect, tighten the vise only about 0.05
    mm, not 2.5 mm.

    That 0.05 mm is only about two thousandths of an inch, the thickness
    of a sheet of the thin paper used in telephone books.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

    Thank you Carl for coming to my rescue and expanding on what I was
    suggesting.

    Chas.

  18. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    John Forrest Tomlinson said:
    Quoted message said:

    A 175.0 mm pedal drops 2.5 mm lower than a 172.5 mm pedal, about a
    tenth of an inch.

    The difference in length between your right and left leg is probably
    twice that much (or more):

    "A majority of people have a measurable leg length difference of 1/4"
    or more."

    So what? My leg length doesn't change much so I don't see what your
    point is.

    (My functional leg length did change a little over a long period of
    time due to some forms of soft tissue work. That affected my bike
    fit.)

    Dear John,

    In all likelihood, one of your legs is longer than the other by 1/4"
    or more, like most people's legs.

    That's about twice as much as the difference in distance from your hip
    to pedals attached to 175.0 and 172.5 mm cranks.

    When walking or running, few of us can tell which of our legs is
    shorter. Indeed, most of us don't even know if we're waddling around
    on slightly mismatched legs, any more than we notice that we're up to
    an inch shorter by the end of the day, due to the compression of our
    spinal disks.

    (The change in spinal length during the day says something about how
    sensitive we really are to the distance from the seat to the
    handlebars.)

    Anyone sufficiently curious can ask a friend to swap four 175 and
    172.5 crank arms randomly on a bike for a dozen rides, left and right,
    and report how well he could tell the difference without looking at
    the numbers on the cranks.

    A more entertaining experiment would involve leaving the crank
    unchanged and lying to a self-described sensitive rider, telling him
    that his 175.0 mm cranks were being changed to 172.5 mm and seeing if
    he detected the imaginary changes.

    A lot of RBT posters have mentioned that they didn't notice what
    turned out to be mismatched cranks.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

    The human body has an amazing capacity to compensate. It took me less than
    2 weeks to compensate for a 1 1/4" leg length difference pre and post hip
    replacement surgery.

    There have been experiments using prism glasses where the subjects view
    everything upside down all of the time. Within a short period of time
    their visual perception flips and everything looks normal.

    There are probably riders like pros and extreme athletes whose perceptions
    are sensitive enough to detect minor differences but I question how many
    are there who can pass the blind tests that you suggest.

    I can tell minor seat height differences between my bikes but that's
    probably because my butt is somewhat stationary for a long time and other
    things like leg and foot extension and pressure on my hands come into
    play.

    Remember the fairy tale about the princess and the pea?

    Chas.

  19. On Feb 18, 3:37 pm, "* * Chas" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    <snipped fro brevity>

    Quoted message said:


    Remember the fairy tale about the princess and the pea?

    That's what blind tests are for: to seperate the princess from the
    pretenders. And that's why the pretenders are so reluctant to engage
    in them.

  20. Quoted message said:
    John Forrest Tomlinson said:
    Quoted message said:

    A 175.0 mm pedal drops 2.5 mm lower than a 172.5 mm pedal, about a
    tenth of an inch.

    The difference in length between your right and left leg is probably
    twice that much (or more):

    "A majority of people have a measurable leg length difference of 1/4"
    or more."

    So what? My leg length doesn't change much so I don't see what your
    point is.

    (My functional leg length did change a little over a long period of
    time due to some forms of soft tissue work. That affected my bike
    fit.)

    Dear John,

    In all likelihood, one of your legs is longer than the other by 1/4"
    or more, like most people's legs.

    That's about twice as much as the difference in distance from your hip
    to pedals attached to 175.0 and 172.5 mm cranks.

    When walking or running, few of us can tell which of our legs is
    shorter.

    Our body, in walking around, is not constrained on both ends like the
    leg is constrained by the seat and pedals (assuming you use
    cliplesspedals or toe clips and straps). Believe me, if someone tied
    a noose around your neck just tight enough to not strangle you, and
    you somehow shrunk an inch, you'd notice.

    That said, I'm certain that if you added a 1/4 inch shim under one of
    my legs I'd notice the difference in walking. That is, if you changed
    the difference from my normal difference.

    I don't know which of my legs is longer (though I used to. The
    problem was due to a hip being tilted, and it manifested itself in
    knee pain. I think it is the left one). I reduced the difference over
    time with help from a chiropractor and other stuff.

    Quoted message said:

    Indeed, most of us don't even know if we're waddling around
    on slightly mismatched legs, any more than we notice that we're up to

    So what? This is irrelevant since we don't have the option to change
    our leg lengths at all.

    Quoted message said:

    an inch shorter by the end of the day, due to the compression of our
    spinal disks.

    I don't change height anywhere nearly that amount.

    Quoted message said:

    (The change in spinal length during the day says something about how
    sensitive we really are to the distance from the seat to the
    handlebars.)

    Anyone sufficiently curious can ask a friend to swap four 175 and
    172.5 crank arms randomly on a bike for a dozen rides, left and right,
    and report how well he could tell the difference without looking at
    the numbers on the cranks.

    You don't know what you are talking about. I've had experiences where
    I've gotten on my bike and something felt wrong. And tracked it down
    after the ride to the seatpost having slipped a small amount or not
    setting the bike up right.

    I recently tried to replace the orthotic I use in my cycling shoes and
    could not get the thing to feel right -- it felt OK to my feet but my
    knees felt tight after 20 minutes, despite the orthotics aligning my
    knees and legs just the same as my old ones. Finally I found the
    difference -- the new ones are a little thicker under the heel and
    ball of the foot. Same manufacturer. Annoying.

    Quoted message said:

    A more entertaining experiment would involve leaving the crank
    unchanged and lying to a self-described sensitive rider, telling him
    that his 175.0 mm cranks were being changed to 172.5 mm and seeing if
    he detected the imaginary changes.

    A lot of RBT posters have mentioned that they didn't notice what
    turned out to be mismatched cranks.

    See my examples above.
    --
    JT
    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

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