Crazy Dura Ace Prices!

[parawolf]

It's all due to single importers to our backwater country of Australia. Not a large enough market for multiple importers/distributers. Probikekit as a mail order company sells more Shimano gear than Shimano Australia sells.

Dunno how things will change through the coming years, we've had 8 years of bikes outselling cars now and with the cost of fuel being AU$1.60/litre or what, about US$5/gall?, we can only expect more bikes being sold, serviced, and upgraded for commuter duties.

 

[mitosis]

ha! They're more Aussie prices -- we've been screwed on prices for years. The cheapest I've ever got 7800 cranks for in a shop was $480!! And I've never bought new levers: I have 4 sets of used 9-speeds

I've got two sets of used 9 speed duraace shifters. Had to go 10 speed (just bought shifters and a 10 speed cassette ) because in races where there were spares vehicles my 9 speed spare wheel was swamped by 10 speeds.

I've also got a 7 speed 105 bike that I can use my 10 speed wheels on because the downtube shifters can be friction or index shift.

 

[mitosis]

That is a steaming pile of ****. Your heads of state in Auckland ought to do something about that.

Even parity with the US dollar? Why would you want that? The US dollar has no traction against the Euro. In fact, some US distributors of some Euro bike parts are dropping those Euro lines because of the expense of stocking them and the very, very small return. Tune is without a distributor right now, as their last guy dropped 'em.

Our heads of state don't get to Auckland very much and certainly don't meet there. I'm not even sure whether the Kiwi heads of state go there much either.

You should get your heads of state in Toronto to get the education system over there to teach you about the rest of the world.

We are staying even or gaining slightly on the euro, but mostly our gain is because the us dollar has been falling.

 

[dgregory57]

Until you are good enough to have your sponsor buy your gear, or make enough money to buy a bicycle that cost more than your first car, Dura-Ace probably shouldn't be your bike.

Not that I begrudge anyone buying whatever they want, but if you want Shimano, 105 is fine.

 

[alienator]

Our heads of state don't get to Auckland very much and certainly don't meet there. I'm not even sure whether the Kiwi heads of state go there much either.

You should get your heads of state in Toronto to get the education system over there to teach you about the rest of the world.

We are staying even or gaining slightly on the euro, but mostly our gain is because the us dollar has been falling.

I wish our heads of state would go to Toronto.....or experience a fatal plane crash.....but they refuse to leave.

 

[alienator]

Until you are good enough to have your sponsor buy your gear, or make enough money to buy a bicycle that cost more than your first car, Dura-Ace probably shouldn't be your bike.

What if the bike costs less than their apartment or house? What if it costs more than their washer and dryer? What if it costs less than an all expenses paid trip Trinidad and Tobago? Is the car comparison an especially important one?

It's much better to spend dosh on Dura Ace or Super Record than it is on spinner wheels for yer Escalade. And iffin' that top gruppo gets ya psyched to ride, then it's worth every penny.

 

[garage sale GT]

Nifty! Ashtabula cranks are making a comeback. It does seem like a much better idea than bolting the crankarms to the crank.

 

[alienator]

Nifty! Ashtabula cranks are making a comeback. It does seem like a much better idea than bolting the crankarms to the crank.

I think if someone prays at the alter of crankset stiffness, then these are the idols to whom they should be praying. Some tests recently showed that there is a significant (in a lab sense or measurement sense) difference in stiffness between NDS and DS crank arms. The NDS crank arms were universally less stiff than DS arms, and that stiffness was a function of BB axle diameter.

Frankly, the last generation of square taper cranksets were more than stiff enough for the vast majority of riders and racers. It seems like Tom Boonen may have one a race or two using square taper Record cranks. Given that, I think it's justified to laugh at people on internet forums who claim they need a stiffer crank. I wonder if there was a race that Boonen lost because his crankarms flexed 200 μm too much?

The ability to mount either compact or standard BCD chainrings is a big deal and something that someone should have thought of long ago. Now, with one crankset, someone can get a much bigger range of gearing options and do it cheaper, too.

The tri-lobal pedal mount system? That's definitely a design from outside the box.

I can't wait to see what the standard road going version will look like and what it's spec will be.

 

[dgregory57]

What if the bike costs less than their apartment or house? What if it costs more than their washer and dryer? What if it costs less than an all expenses paid trip Trinidad and Tobago? Is the car comparison an especially important one?

It's much better to spend dosh on Dura Ace or Super Record than it is on spinner wheels for yer Escalade. And iffin' that top gruppo gets ya psyched to ride, then it's worth every penny.

No the car comparison is not a particularly important one, and in fact the Shimano 105 group I just bought cost more than my first car... Also, as I stated, I don't begrudge anyone spending whatever they want on their gear... I do however think that it is arguably a waste for anyone below the level of being sponsored to spend the money for DA.

I do agree that there are far worse things to spend money on. But as far as bang per buck, the high end groups just don't have it. For the average rider (even racer) I think it is better to have a back-up bike or a slush fund in case of a catastophic failure.

 

[alienator]

No the car comparison is not a particularly important one, and in fact the Shimano 105 group I just bought cost more than my first car... Also, as I stated, I don't begrudge anyone spending whatever they want on their gear... I do however think that it is arguably a waste for anyone below the level of being sponsored to spend the money for DA.

I do agree that there are far worse things to spend money on. But as far as bang per buck, the high end groups just don't have it. For the average rider (even racer) I think it is better to have a back-up bike or a slush fund in case of a catastophic failure.

Well, I completely disagree. Bang for the buck is no universal standard of comparison. It is, like most everything else in cycling, a purely personal value.

If you want to view things from a purely mechanical and mechanical performance view, then not even the pros need anything more than SRAM Rival, Shimano 105, and Campy Veloce. They would get completely adequate performance out of those groups over the course of a race. Durability isn't a consideration because they would just switch out components on some regular, preventative maintenance schedule.

In fact, 105 isn't even needed. All you NEED is a coaster brake and one cog in back. Everything else is just extra icing.

Needs are a funny thing in that there are very few needs. The vast majority of people riding bikes in the world would likely say that what you have on your bike is completely unnecessary and a waste.

So, who's right? The only one that can be right is the one buying cycling gear for themselves, and in that case, they're only right about what they're buying for themselves. If anyone claims otherwise, they're either selling something or proselytizing.

 

[JTE83]

No, single speed totally sucks. When I was a bike messenger my Ultegra 9 shifter broke giving me 1 rear cog and it totally sucked. Got a warranty replacement through Shimano, not Performance Bike!

I'm gonna have to settle for 105 or Ultegra now, just being happy with my 105 10 Trek Pilot 2.1 spa. Doesn't need fancy stuff when it's a cargo hauling commuter / workout bike.

 

[dgregory57]

Well, I completely disagree. Bang for the buck is no universal standard of comparison. It is, like most everything else in cycling, a purely personal value.

If you want to view things from a purely mechanical and mechanical performance view, then not even the pros need anything more than SRAM Rival, Shimano 105, and Campy Veloce. They would get completely adequate performance out of those groups over the course of a race. Durability isn't a consideration because they would just switch out components on some regular, preventative maintenance schedule.

In fact, 105 isn't even needed. All you NEED is a coaster brake and one cog in back. Everything else is just extra icing.

Needs are a funny thing in that there are very few needs. The vast majority of people riding bikes in the world would likely say that what you have on your bike is completely unnecessary and a waste.

So, who's right? The only one that can be right is the one buying cycling gear for themselves, and in that case, they're only right about what they're buying for themselves. If anyone claims otherwise, they're either selling something or proselytizing.

I think you are putting a lot more weight on my words than I intended.

I merely expressed an opinion.

I don't think DA is worth the cost, and that there are far better things to spend money on.

If you disagree, that is fine, you don't have to defeat my argument, since I am not making one, merely expressing an opinion. You can't defeat my opinion... it is still my opinion no matter how hard you fight, or how many points you make.

I already stated that I would begrudge nobody for choosing to spend the money on DA, or Red, or Super Record (although I don't think I mentioned the last two specifically since they weren't on topic, but I do feel that way).

In expressing my thoughts and feelings, I was not making a cohesive argument, just expressing some of my feelings.

I am entitled to my opinion, and I am also entitled to express it. Just as you are entitled to yours, and to challenge mine.

What can I say to help you feel better?

Perhaps it would help if you knew that in expressing my opinion, I don't claim that my opinion is better than anyone else's nor that I will necessarily hold the same opinion tomorrow.

I do know that I am highly unlikely to ever own DA, since I am far too cheap... but that is a diffferent issue.

 

[alienator]

I think you are putting a lot more weight on my words than I intended.

I merely expressed an opinion..
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My post(s) are intended as a counter point for new riders and anyone else who my want something but are hesitant to buy it because they're told they don't need it, don't deserve it, and are not Cat 1 racers. That is not something that's expressed very often by the "experienced" riders on forums like this.

 

[tonyzackery]

My post(s) are intended as a counter point for new riders and anyone else who my want something but are hesitant to buy it because they're told they don't need it, don't deserve it, and are not Cat 1 racers. That is not something that's expressed very often by the "experienced" riders on forums like this.

Oh, but you'll "laugh" at someone (presumably not a pro) who needs more stiffness than a square taper crank can provide...Appears you're contradicting yourself. You'll be wise to check what you wrote in your 2/8/08 5:42pm post, Alienator my friend...

Anyway, and with regard to the current topic, when I initially got into cycling a couple years ago I too thought you could buy speed. Needless to say I've sold most of my DA parts and replaced them with 105 or Ultegra. Until I'm at least Cat 2, my discretionary income is better spent elsewhere than on the top-shelf bicycle parts...further, it's always satisfying to finish higher up on the result list post race than guys racing on their $3500+ bike ****...

 

[alienator]

Oh, but you'll "laugh" at someone (presumably not a pro) who needs more stiffness than a square taper crank can provide...Appears you're contradicting yourself. You'll be wise to check what you wrote in your 2/8/08 5:42pm post, Alienator my friend...

No contradiction at all. If someone wants to buy a crankset/BB that tests stiffer or is advertised as stiffer, that's great. The physical need, though, is not there because it's exceedingly likely that any power lost to flexing cranks and/or BB axles is beyond the ability of a human to discretely detect, especially then that power loss is accompanied by an also very small power loss in frame flex, wheel flex, and on and on and on. In fact, it's yet to have been shown by anyone that the hysteresis resulting from crank flex has a detrimental effect on bicycle performance or human performance on a bicycle. You should read that again: there have been zero tests that show crank flex to adversely affect human performance on a bicycle. Now, if you'd like to address that on a technical level, have at it.

It is entirely possible that someone might "feel" like they need a stiffer crank, stiffer frame, or whatever: that is a personal judgement and partially a result of that person's bias. It is not in anyway indicative of a mechanical performance issue with the bike. The human sensor is a wildly inaccurate sensor that is easily biased by emotions and preconceptions. Here's a simple example that might be almost easy for you to understand: Mavic (uhm, they make wheels. I didn't know if that was within your scope of knowledge) did a study and found that the riders in their test group could not reliably say whether the wheels they were riding were "stiff" or not. Mavic had the riders ride wheels that were laterally very stiff or laterally noodly, but the riders could not determine what they were on with any success that implied they could detect the differences. So, what does that say about people who feel they need "stiffer" wheels? I'll give you a minute or two to think about it.............
...........Well, it says the physical reality is not congruent with what those test subjects thought was going on. Still, every week on some bike forum somewhere, someone will say that they need a "stiffer" set of wheels. Hmmmmm. Golly, how do they know? It's their own personal bias that produces that "need."

Go ahead. Read all of my posts. You'll find I've never said that someone shouldn't buy what they want or feel that they "need." I have said that feeling of "need" is not necessarily correlated in any way with the physical reality and that "need" is likely the result of personal bias in the interpretation of what they "feel."

Now, don't you think it's a bit pathetic that you derive a "good feeling" from finishing ahead of someone on a bike more expensive than you? I mean, that means that you made the asinine presumption re: what that other racer's motivations were for buying their bike......or do you have some prescient skills that you've been keeping secret? Eh? Man, being happy over such a juvenile presumption is, well, sad.

 

[alienator]

As for real prices, as usually happens, the prices given at product introductions is found to be higher than the real prices. Wheelsmith, in the UK, is taking orders on Campy 11 Chorus, Record, and Super Record. At the expensive end, if you want the whole Super Record gruppo, the cost, in US dollars, will be $2519. If you already have Record or Chorus, you can upgrade to Super Record (brifters, FD, RD, 11 spd cassette and cables) for $1397.

I don't know if those prices include VAT, but given the state of the US dollar vs. the pound sterling, it doesn't seem that bad at all. It's certainly cheaper than the intial $3000 price tag. Lower prices are certain to pop up.

 

[tonyzackery]

No contradiction at all. If someone wants to buy a crankset/BB that tests stiffer or is advertised as stiffer, that's great. The physical need, though, is not there because it's exceedingly likely that any power lost to flexing cranks and/or BB axles is beyond the ability of a human to discretely detect, especially then that power loss is accompanied by an also very small power loss in frame flex, wheel flex, and on and on and on. In fact, it's yet to have been shown by anyone that the hysteresis resulting from crank flex has a detrimental effect on bicycle performance or human performance on a bicycle. You should read that again: there have been zero tests that show crank flex to adversely affect human performance on a bicycle. Now, if you'd like to address that on a technical level, have at it.

It is entirely possible that someone might "feel" like they need a stiffer crank, stiffer frame, or whatever: that is a personal judgement and partially a result of that person's bias. It is not in anyway indicative of a mechanical performance issue with the bike. The human sensor is a wildly inaccurate sensor that is easily biased by emotions and preconceptions. Here's a simple example that might be almost easy for you to understand: Mavic (uhm, they make wheels. I didn't know if that was within your scope of knowledge) did a study and found that the riders in their test group could not reliably say whether the wheels they were riding were "stiff" or not. Mavic had the riders ride wheels that were laterally very stiff or laterally noodly, but the riders could not determine what they were on with any success that implied they could detect the differences. So, what does that say about people who feel they need "stiffer" wheels? I'll give you a minute or two to think about it.............
...........Well, it says the physical reality is not congruent with what those test subjects thought was going on. Still, every week on some bike forum somewhere, someone will say that they need a "stiffer" set of wheels. Hmmmmm. Golly, how do they know? It's their own personal bias that produces that "need."

Go ahead. Read all of my posts. You'll find I've never said that someone shouldn't buy what they want or feel that they "need." I have said that feeling of "need" is not necessarily correlated in any way with the physical reality and that "need" is likely the result of personal bias in the interpretation of what they "feel."

Now, don't you think it's a bit pathetic that you derive a "good feeling" from finishing ahead of someone on a bike more expensive than you? I mean, that means that you made the asinine presumption re: what that other racer's motivations were for buying their bike......or do you have some prescient skills that you've been keeping secret? Eh? Man, being happy over such a juvenile presumption is, well, sad.

LOL! You had to write a book to try to back your way out of that one..Ya got caught talkin' out your a** and you tried to fix it...everyone can read it for themselves...From THAT I derive my "good feeling"...thank you...

 

[alienator]

LOL! You had to write a book to try to back your way out of that one..Ya got caught talkin' out your a** and you tried to fix it...everyone can read it for themselves...From THAT I derive my "good feeling"...thank you...

Uh-huh. You have a rich imagination. You should get out more.

 

[mitosis]

No contradiction at all. If someone wants to buy a crankset/BB that tests stiffer or is advertised as stiffer, that's great. The physical need, though, is not there because it's exceedingly likely that any power lost to flexing cranks and/or BB axles is beyond the ability of a human to discretely detect, especially then that power loss is accompanied by an also very small power loss in frame flex, wheel flex, and on and on and on. In fact, it's yet to have been shown by anyone that the hysteresis resulting from crank flex has a detrimental effect on bicycle performance or human performance on a bicycle. You should read that again: there have been zero tests that show crank flex to adversely affect human performance on a bicycle. Now, if you'd like to address that on a technical level, have at it.

It is entirely possible that someone might "feel" like they need a stiffer crank, stiffer frame, or whatever: that is a personal judgement and partially a result of that person's bias. It is not in anyway indicative of a mechanical performance issue with the bike. The human sensor is a wildly inaccurate sensor that is easily biased by emotions and preconceptions. Here's a simple example that might be almost easy for you to understand: Mavic (uhm, they make wheels. I didn't know if that was within your scope of knowledge) did a study and found that the riders in their test group could not reliably say whether the wheels they were riding were "stiff" or not. Mavic had the riders ride wheels that were laterally very stiff or laterally noodly, but the riders could not determine what they were on with any success that implied they could detect the differences. So, what does that say about people who feel they need "stiffer" wheels? I'll give you a minute or two to think about it.............
...........Well, it says the physical reality is not congruent with what those test subjects thought was going on. Still, every week on some bike forum somewhere, someone will say that they need a "stiffer" set of wheels. Hmmmmm. Golly, how do they know? It's their own personal bias that produces that "need."

Go ahead. Read all of my posts. You'll find I've never said that someone shouldn't buy what they want or feel that they "need." I have said that feeling of "need" is not necessarily correlated in any way with the physical reality and that "need" is likely the result of personal bias in the interpretation of what they "feel."

Now, don't you think it's a bit pathetic that you derive a "good feeling" from finishing ahead of someone on a bike more expensive than you? I mean, that means that you made the asinine presumption re: what that other racer's motivations were for buying their bike......or do you have some prescient skills that you've been keeping secret? Eh? Man, being happy over such a juvenile presumption is, well, sad.

Well, much as I agree with your argument up until the last paragraph I have to disagree with you there.

Up until 2 years ago I used to derive a good feeling beating guys on their $7000 bikes on my 15 year old repainted (by me) lugged cromoly frame with 7 speed 105 and downtube shifters. It may be juvenile but i think its more to do with the fact that it just confirms that you can't buy speed.

Now I have a $7000 bike myself so that feeling doesn't happen an more but I had to laugh a little while ago when a guy on a bike not unlike my old one wearing long trousers and a long sleeved white shirt killed us all in the KOM in a 100k race in southern queensland. I've seen him racing a bit around that area and he must suffer badly from sunburn - and be a little eccentric.

 

[tonyzackery]

Uh-huh. You have a rich imagination. You should get out more.

Ouch! That hurt...Your implication/assumption/presumption is right on point...Nevertheless, there is virtue in being able to admit one's mistakes...peace, my friend...