Creatine serum

Hi guys, been browsing a while, cool forum so decided to post.

I'm a 28, and a triathlete of 2 yrs and long time MTB'er, slim and only 65kg.
I've been steadily improving through training and racing and generally finish within 20% of the winner's time in events at the mo.
In an effort to try and increase muscular endurance I am taking a creatine serum prior to some of my training sessions (mainly the bike).
Does anyone have any views, positive or negative on using it?
If +ve then can you suggest typical training sessions which maximise the use of it?

Cheers,
Andy

 

Whoops sorry I realise I put this in the wrong bit of the forum!

 

Andy, there are a few threads on here that talk about creatine use and I think you should have a read of these.

As a triathlete I believe that you will not see any significant benefit from using creatine.

In short, creatine is important in the body as a fuel for the 'ATP-PC' (or alactic) energy system which provides energy for very short efforts (i.e. single movements or dynamic exercise lasting upto 5 seconds). Furthermore creatine supplementation appears to improve recovery from these efforts rather than extending the effort or increasing the work performed. Creatine is therefore of most benefits to people competing in sports where there is repeated maximal sprints with little time for recovery.

Because of the way creatine is used in the body it is unlikely to have an impact in triathlon. Performance gains are more likely to be made by eating a balanced diet and having correct nutrition at a basic level. Just supplementing with carbohydrate and being hydrated during ALL training sessions (>1 hour) will result in greater training gains from every session!

 

Ok that's interesting. The product is marketed as being synthesised specifically for endurance sports (it's made by MMUSA - www.creatine.com)

Andy

 

Andy,

I checked out the site and the FAQ page (http://www.creatine.com/customer/faq.php), but it doesn't answer the question 'how will creatine help the endurance athlete?'.

In endurance exercise like a triathlon energy (adp converted to atp) occurs primeraly by aerobic metabolism and not by via the ATP-PC system that uses creatine. It may be worth putting this to the manufacturer! Also if creatine is completly safe why can it not be used by people with high blood pressure, during pregnancy, etc.

On a positive side, the website does not claim that the product increases endurance, increases work capacity or resistance to fatigue (at least not on the FAQ) side - only that it helps movement (but so does getting out of bed). The manufacturers don't really put a strong case for endurance people using the product! I'd spend my money on (veggie) jaffa cakes (a good source of carbohydrate)!

 

Creatine might be useful for some athletes but creatine serum is a waste of time because when you disolve creatine monohydrate in water it breaks down fairly quickly into CREATININE which a useless metabolite of creatine and not performance enhancing at all

so if you want to use creatine get the powder and make it up just before you want to take it, don't let it sit around in a bottle for hours

you will notice that none of the big supplement companies offer serums (EAS, Weider etc) because they KNOW its a load of crap and they even tested it to refute the claims of the serum crowd

 

My experience agrees with 2LAP's. I have never actually taken creatine, but I've asked a lot of questions about it. I still don't know near as much about it as 2LAP does, but it doesn't do what I would want a supplement to do.

The soccer players that I know take it to get big, probably so they can finish off the fight before the ref pulls out his red card. Anyway, there are better ways to get a good aerobic system, although creatine might help a little with your power.

 

Creatine has been shown to be good for repeated SHORT maximal bouts of exercise which is why sprinters and weightlifters use it

i'm dubious about its benefit for endurance athletes due to its mode of action and one of its effects is to draw more water into the muscle which leads to increased muscle mass.

Improvements in aerobic efficiency come about through mitochondrial adaptations which utilise the krebs cycle/glycolysis pathways. Both pathways in which extra creatine phosphate has little effect.

 

just a quick follow up, that brand of serum is the one the big companies got tested and they found it had only 2.5mg of creatine per serve (a normal dose is 3000-5000mg) because the creatine had decomposed in solution!!

 

creatine may help with criterium cycling where short bursts out of corners and chasing to get onto a bunch is used. So as a triathlete it would only be useful for olympic length triathlons that allow drafting and has a criterium style bike leg (ie like the accenture race series in Australia).

Also though, taking creatine can cause retention of fluid (up to 2kgs) so it then would be a disadvantage esp in the run leg. And interestingly taking creatine has no effect on about 30% of the population. So if u happen to be one of those 30% you are wasting your money.

Just thought i'd add my $0.02 worth.

Jonny

 

Thanks for the info.
I like jaffa cakes nanas and dried fruit etc. so I'll spend my money on that instead and save the rest for some pimpy bike bits.

On another note: Anyone tried Elagen's products (the immuno system supplements etc.)?

 

Some more info on creatine that I have just found...

http://www.sportsci.org/traintech/creatine/rbk.html

 

I know this is not really an answer to your endurance question. But i used creatine monohydrate (powder) when i was lifting weights to get bigger. I found that as long as i consumed alot of water throughout the day as well, it helped me perform more/heavier reps than at times when i was'nt using it. And this may just be a perception thing but it gave my muscles a bigger pump at the end of a workout. And they stayed larger for longer after the workout. Anyway just some extra info (personal experience) for you. This is just my view, but i think having everything else right (eg, consuming enough water and the right type of foods, getting enough sleep for your body to heal and grow etc) is more beneficial/helpful than taking supplements.

 

Very informative thread. Just wondering if any of you that have studied Creatine supplementation know the details of transport and absorption when Creatine is taken orally.

It seems there is a great body of evidence showing that creatine has no beneficial effects for endurance or sub-maximal exercise activities. Yet, logic dictates, (at least mine) that any additional creatine stores, like glycogen, will aid in prolonging exercise activity.

It's always been my perspective that it is very difficult to describe the "proportions" of various energy pathways invoked throughtout a given competition.

A hill presents and triggers an opportunity for some anaerobic muscle activity during standing, etc...... A tailwind allows for a period of complete aerobiosis.

I would suggest there is a possiblity that for some individuals
engaged in exercise activities of varying intensity, that additional creatine stores are some how beneficial. I admit, that I cannot decribe the differing metabolic pathways activated in "real life" situations that would support my inference.

As I stated above, to prove creatine a benefit, a subject would have to demonstrate that a "lack of creatine" promoted a reduction in ATP synthesis during a given effort, something I doubt, will ever be demonstrated.

Or has it?

 

Originally posted by JimAmelung2
It seems there is a great body of evidence showing that creatine has no beneficial effects for endurance or sub-maximal exercise activities. Yet, logic dictates, (at least mine) that any additional creatine stores, like glycogen, will aid in prolonging exercise activity.

>Actualy, it tends to improve recovery of creatine stores between sprints rather than prolonging exercise or increasing exercise intensity in a single bout of exercise. As creatine is not used to a great extent in endurance or submaximal exercise, changing creatine levels will have very little effect on performance.

It's always been my perspective that it is very difficult to describe the "proportions" of various energy pathways invoked throughtout a given competition.

>In a road race the contribution of the ATPC system is estimated to be <1%. Whereas the contrbutions of anaerobic glycolysis and aerobic metabolism make up the other 99%, much greater improvements in performance are bound to be seen here.

A hill presents and triggers an opportunity for some anaerobic muscle activity during standing, etc...... A tailwind allows for a period of complete aerobiosis.

>Given that the ATPC system is likly to benefit efforts of <10 seconds, a hill lasting over 10 seconds would require a large component of anaerobic glycolysis and aerobic metabolism. Also should you hit the hill in a state of depleted creatine (at complete rest recovery of creatine stores takes over 2 minutes) you are unlikly to have creatine to contribute to the effort. Few hills or even sprint finishes are ridden at an intensity where the ATPC system would provide a significant amount of energy.

I would suggest there is a possiblity that for some individuals
engaged in exercise activities of varying intensity, that additional creatine stores are some how beneficial. I admit, that I cannot decribe the differing metabolic pathways activated in "real life" situations that would support my inference.

>Agree, sports people that engage in sports with varying intesity do benefit from creatine. These people are footballers, etc. where exercise goes from max to allmost rest to max again. In road racing pace is far less variable. Perhaps there may be a benefit for track points racers, but only if the race happens to have long slow periods between races.

As I stated above, to prove creatine a benefit, a subject would have to demonstrate that a "lack of creatine" promoted a reduction in ATP synthesis during a given effort, something I doubt, will ever be demonstrated.

>Actualy, demonstrating that a 'lack of creatine promotes a reduction in ATP synthesis' does not infer a performance loss. Also by supplementing someone with creatine you create a whole population that are relativly depleted in creatine (i.e. non supplemented individuals). If you want to see the effect of creatine depletion on performance just do a series for 5 second maximal sprints with 30 second rests, you'll soon see your performance go down! After 5 or 6 sprints there would defineatly be a 'lack of creatine', but would this impact on endurance? Perhaps not.

 

Thanks for addressing my thoughts. It is difficult to setup or "frame" given statements accurately enough to withstand "scientific" scrutiny.

I take issue with the your supposition of "knowing" what amount of given energy is produced anerobically in any given athletic effort. As well, the mechanics of various muscle activity are so diverse that one cannot supppose that "no rest" is available to some tissue, and that somehow "all" cells are recruited during efforts.

As I previously stated:I admit, that I cannot decribe the differing metabolic pathways activated in "real life" situations that would support my inference.

Yet, I believe there are poorly understood relationships of metabolic activities and their effects on human performance.
I'm not endorsing creatine supplementation for anyone, I'm acknowledging that for some reason it helps people that "theoretically should not be helped".

 

Is the statement "creatine has no beneficial effects for endurance exercise activities" a bit misleading? Agreed, that if I'm about to do a 25 mile TT, then a few spoons of creatine just before I start probably won't help. But what if my training for the TT involves high intensity intervals at or just above my lactic threshold? Surely creatine will help here, and this may then lead to improved performance in the TT?

 

Perhaps, but only if the intensities used in training use predominently the ATPC system. Riding at LT and the high intensity intervals required for TT performance use aerobic metabolism and anaerobic glycolysis (lactic acid system). Therefore I'm not sure that creatine would help here.

This might be different for training for madisons, points races and other similar track endurance events where training would involve short and explosive sprints.

A similar thing could be applied to the 1 KM time trial where creatine is unlikely to help performance significantly in a race, but as almost all of the training is short and explosive creatine might improve quality.