Creatine

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Keith Alexander®, Sep 30, 2004.

  1. warren

    warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Sam
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:011020042139213672%[email protected]
    > > In article <[email protected]>, Sam
    > > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:011020040916081901%[email protected]
    > > > > In article <[email protected]>, Kenny
    > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > > warren <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > > > news:<300920041901519224%[email protected]>...
    > > > > > > In article <[email protected]>, Keith
    > > > > > > Alexander® <[email protected]!nootrope.net> wrote:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 01:23:46 GMT, warren <[email protected]>
    > > > > > > > wrote:
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >the possible benefits of creatine have virtually nothing
    > > > > > > > >to do with any benefit from nandralone or any other anabolic
    > > > steroid.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > *** Would anyone here personally risk continuing
    > > > > > > > a creatine routine during the racing season?
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > What is the risk? Creatine isn't a banned substance. You'll find
    > > > > > > significant amounts of it in fish and meat.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > And it works quite well for short, intense efforts of like 3

    > minutes.
    > > > > > Though it makes you gain some weight, it really improves riding the
    > > > > > well known short climbs in Flanders. i really was amazed. But i
    > > > > > wouldn't take creatine when i plan to climb some frenc cols.

    > Because
    > > > > > the effect would be rather negative then positive. And creatine in
    > > > > > combination with the heat over there, results in muscle cramps after

    > a
    > > > > > while (especially when you don't drink enough).
    > > > >
    > > > > Ingesting creatine monohydrate will probably add to your stores of
    > > > > creatine phosphate, or help make more creatine phosphate available

    > when
    > > > > needed. The creatine phosphate energy cycle lasts, or your readily
    > > > > available creatine is depleted... in less than 20 seconds.
    > > > >
    > > > > IOW, creatine is not used for efforts longer than 20 seconds, and more
    > > > > likely less than 15 seconds. After an effort that uses creatine
    > > > > phosphate your available stores will be replenished in around 1-2
    > > > > minutes, depending on how much creatine is still available.
    > > > >
    > > > > Try a google on "creatine phosphate energy".
    > > > >
    > > > > -WG
    > > >
    > > > Taking creatine just before a race or an event, even something like the
    > > > match sprint will not do you any good. Creatine's benefits come from
    > > > increasing the work one may do during training. Classic example is in
    > > > weightlifting where lifters on creatine will be able to lift more reps,
    > > > getting more training stimulus and thus getting benefit.

    > >
    > > I'm not sure where you get the impresssion I was suggesting that
    > > creatine was effective if taken right before exercise. On at least two
    > > occasions I've told people they were wasting their time taking liquid
    > > creatine right before an event.
    > >
    > > -WG

    >
    > The IOW paragraph led me along those lines, but you are correct in that you
    > are not recommending this. As much as anything else, my response was an
    > elaboration of the creatine issue.


    The elaboration was needed, since some people think they can take
    creatine right before they need it.
    >
    > Also, if one does a really hard effort it takes more like 5 minutes for the
    > CP system to get restored to about 95%.


    I've been told it's something like 90% after a minute of recovery from
    a 20 second effort, nearly 100% after two minutes recovery, and then
    with each successive effort the creatine takes a bit longer to
    replenish and it does so to a lesser and lesser extent. Some strange
    things happen when one is completely (virtually) out of creatine or
    whatever it is that is used up during repeats of these efforts.

    -WG
     


  2. Kenny

    Kenny Guest

    "Warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:011020040916081901%[email protected]
    > > > In article <[email protected]>, Kenny
    > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > warren <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > > news:<300920041901519224%[email protected]>...
    > > > > > In article <[email protected]>, Keith
    > > > > > Alexander® <[email protected]!nootrope.net> wrote:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 01:23:46 GMT, warren <[email protected]>
    > > > > > > wrote:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > >the possible benefits of creatine have virtually nothing
    > > > > > > >to do with any benefit from nandralone or any other anabolic

    > steroid.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > *** Would anyone here personally risk continuing
    > > > > > > a creatine routine during the racing season?
    > > > > >
    > > > > > What is the risk? Creatine isn't a banned substance. You'll find
    > > > > > significant amounts of it in fish and meat.
    > > > >
    > > > > And it works quite well for short, intense efforts of like 3 minutes.
    > > > > Though it makes you gain some weight, it really improves riding the
    > > > > well known short climbs in Flanders. i really was amazed. But i
    > > > > wouldn't take creatine when i plan to climb some frenc cols. Because
    > > > > the effect would be rather negative then positive. And creatine in
    > > > > combination with the heat over there, results in muscle cramps after a
    > > > > while (especially when you don't drink enough).
    > > >
    > > > Ingesting creatine monohydrate will probably add to your stores of
    > > > creatine phosphate, or help make more creatine phosphate available when
    > > > needed. The creatine phosphate energy cycle lasts, or your readily
    > > > available creatine is depleted... in less than 20 seconds.
    > > >
    > > > IOW, creatine is not used for efforts longer than 20 seconds, and more
    > > > likely less than 15 seconds.

    > >
    > > You mean "is not used exclusively" (obviously you must, since no energy
    > > "system" operates indendently of the others).

    >
    > Yes, that's what I was thinking.
    >
    > IOW, Kenny is correct in
    > > stating that creatine phosphate loading can increase average power during
    > > efforts lasting several minutes.

    >
    > If CP is even needed for the effort, but climbing a hill for a minute or so?
    > I don't think taking CM will help him much and as you say below, the extra
    > water retained is worse than any help he might get from CM.


    Well i thought the same thing before, but i gotta say it really turned
    out the other way. It did my best climbs when i was on creatine. You
    should try it yourself when you ride over here on the cobblestones and
    the climbs. Flemish climbs are power climbs. It's true weight is an
    important factor but not in the same way as it is for real climbers in
    the Alps.
    BTW doesn't the increasing weight factor depend on what the amount of
    creatine is. I believe you can build up a creatine reserve by taking
    >30gr a day (a lot of starting fitness guys do that) the first week

    (and a half) and then maintaining that reserve by taking smaller
    doses. But you don't need to do it that way. I took like 15gr a day
    (in 2 times) and it worked fine.

    Kenny


    > Unfortunately, it does come at a price,
    > > i.e., increased body mass...and at least in my experience, it's a zero-sum
    > > game.

    >
    > If body mass and/or gravity is a significant factor, yes. I can't see why
    > somebody other than a sprinter would want to use CM and even then it's a
    > small factor compared to training and natural ability.
    >
    > -WG
     
  3. Sam

    Sam Guest

    "Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "Warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > > > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:011020040916081901%[email protected]
    > > > > In article <[email protected]>, Kenny
    > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > > warren <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > > > news:<300920041901519224%[email protected]>...
    > > > > > > In article <[email protected]>, Keith
    > > > > > > Alexander® <[email protected]!nootrope.net> wrote:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 01:23:46 GMT, warren

    <[email protected]>
    > > > > > > > wrote:
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > >the possible benefits of creatine have virtually nothing
    > > > > > > > >to do with any benefit from nandralone or any other anabolic

    > > steroid.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > *** Would anyone here personally risk continuing
    > > > > > > > a creatine routine during the racing season?
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > What is the risk? Creatine isn't a banned substance. You'll find
    > > > > > > significant amounts of it in fish and meat.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > And it works quite well for short, intense efforts of like 3

    minutes.
    > > > > > Though it makes you gain some weight, it really improves riding

    the
    > > > > > well known short climbs in Flanders. i really was amazed. But i
    > > > > > wouldn't take creatine when i plan to climb some frenc cols.

    Because
    > > > > > the effect would be rather negative then positive. And creatine

    in
    > > > > > combination with the heat over there, results in muscle cramps

    after a
    > > > > > while (especially when you don't drink enough).
    > > > >
    > > > > Ingesting creatine monohydrate will probably add to your stores of
    > > > > creatine phosphate, or help make more creatine phosphate available

    when
    > > > > needed. The creatine phosphate energy cycle lasts, or your readily
    > > > > available creatine is depleted... in less than 20 seconds.
    > > > >
    > > > > IOW, creatine is not used for efforts longer than 20 seconds, and

    more
    > > > > likely less than 15 seconds.
    > > >
    > > > You mean "is not used exclusively" (obviously you must, since no

    energy
    > > > "system" operates indendently of the others).

    > >
    > > Yes, that's what I was thinking.
    > >
    > > IOW, Kenny is correct in
    > > > stating that creatine phosphate loading can increase average power

    during
    > > > efforts lasting several minutes.

    > >
    > > If CP is even needed for the effort, but climbing a hill for a minute or

    so?
    > > I don't think taking CM will help him much and as you say below, the

    extra
    > > water retained is worse than any help he might get from CM.

    >
    > Well i thought the same thing before, but i gotta say it really turned
    > out the other way. It did my best climbs when i was on creatine. You
    > should try it yourself when you ride over here on the cobblestones and
    > the climbs. Flemish climbs are power climbs. It's true weight is an
    > important factor but not in the same way as it is for real climbers in
    > the Alps.
    > BTW doesn't the increasing weight factor depend on what the amount of
    > creatine is. I believe you can build up a creatine reserve by taking
    > >30gr a day (a lot of starting fitness guys do that) the first week

    > (and a half) and then maintaining that reserve by taking smaller
    > doses. But you don't need to do it that way. I took like 15gr a day
    > (in 2 times) and it worked fine.
    >
    > Kenny

    The "loading" phase is not really necessary unless you are trying to get
    creatine stores increased quickly.





    >
    >
    > > Unfortunately, it does come at a price,
    > > > i.e., increased body mass...and at least in my experience, it's a

    zero-sum
    > > > game.

    > >
    > > If body mass and/or gravity is a significant factor, yes. I can't see

    why
    > > somebody other than a sprinter would want to use CM and even then it's a
    > > small factor compared to training and natural ability.
    > >
    > > -WG
     
  4. warren

    warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Sam
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > BTW doesn't the increasing weight factor depend on what the amount of
    > > creatine is. I believe you can build up a creatine reserve by taking
    > > >30gr a day (a lot of starting fitness guys do that) the first week

    > > (and a half) and then maintaining that reserve by taking smaller
    > > doses. But you don't need to do it that way. I took like 15gr a day
    > > (in 2 times) and it worked fine.
    > >
    > > Kenny

    > The "loading" phase is not really necessary unless you are trying to get
    > creatine stores increased quickly.


    I think I read a report from Australia saying they thought 5-10 grams a
    day for a week or two was sufficient to get yourself full of creatine.
    Is this about right? Of course the creatine sellers would like you to
    use more than that...

    -WG
     
  5. Kenny

    Kenny Guest

    warren <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<041020042104238019%[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected]>, Sam
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > "Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > > > BTW doesn't the increasing weight factor depend on what the amount of
    > > > creatine is. I believe you can build up a creatine reserve by taking
    > > > >30gr a day (a lot of starting fitness guys do that) the first week
    > > > (and a half) and then maintaining that reserve by taking smaller
    > > > doses. But you don't need to do it that way. I took like 15gr a day
    > > > (in 2 times) and it worked fine.
    > > >
    > > > Kenny

    > > The "loading" phase is not really necessary unless you are trying to get
    > > creatine stores increased quickly.

    >
    > I think I read a report from Australia saying they thought 5-10 grams a
    > day for a week or two was sufficient to get yourself full of creatine.
    > Is this about right? Of course the creatine sellers would like you to
    > use more than that...
    >
    > -WG


    I sure did feel it: 12-15gr/day for 2 months

    kenny
     
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