Crit Crash Video: Whose Fault?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by boisestate, Apr 7, 2013.

  1. boisestate

    boisestate New Member

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    I happened to catch this crash in a recent crit. I am glad to have avoided it. But, it sparked a debate as to who was at fault.



    You have a
    • lapped rider (Orange Stripe, bigger guy) drifted back as through the middle of the field as he is lapped again
    • another rider in blue who swerves to miss him
    • another rider (orange stripe, skinnier) who has an overlapped wheel, head down and goes down.


    What do you think?
     
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  2. sitzmark

    sitzmark Member

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    Blue.

    Erratic line and poor judgement given the line taken into the pass. No reason to "thread the needle". Not knowing what was behind the camera, the better line appeared to be left of both orange stripe riders.
     
  3. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Well that's pretty pitiful riding for two riders, clearly with a ton of room ahead and to either side manage to get tangled up in a crash. But I gotta say that was a very hard chop by the rider in blue and for no apparent reason as he had no reason to move right suddenly, he had all the road he needed to either move right on a smooth and predictable diagonal or to slide left but instead he dramatically hooks right. Sure the guy in the red striped jersey was floating in a bad place and not doing much to protect his front wheel but that was a pretty strung out field with a lot of room to move predictably and that was a totally unexpected and hard hook.

    Per the current USAC rules page 47 of General Regulations (taken from UCI rules)

    1N7
    No rider may make an abrupt motion so as to interfere with the forward progress
    of another rider, either intentionally or by accident.

    Yeah, the rule is rarely enforced but abrupt motions that result in accidents like the one on video are not legal whether or not the move was intentional. The question usually boils down to interpretations of 'abrupt' but the move you caught on video was pure bush league riding.

    The guy drifting back did nothing wrong, he held his line as folks came around him. Sure if he was blown off an earlier race or spit out of a break he might have been polite and drifted back on the outside but folks can blow up, shut down, flat or drift back from the center of the peloton at any time and as long as they hold their line and ride predictably they've done nothing wrong.

    I'd put about 90% of the 'cause' of the crash on the bonehead in blue that made a totally unnecessary hard hook to the right when he had all the room in the world to move on a predictable diagonal in either direction and wasn't even in traffic. Sure from a self preservation standpoint the guy that went down could do a better job of protecting his front wheel but he wasn't riding crazy overlap for the situation and when things get really tight in a fast crit there's a whole lot more overlap than that happening for anyone wanting to stay forward and in contention.
     
  4. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    Six of one, half a dozen of the other. The guy in blue should have seen he was gaining on the lapped guy at a fair rate of knots and known that he'd just passed the guy that would eventually hit the deck. The guy that hit the deck should have seen that he'd just been passed and that the lapped guy was coming back at them and that little boy blue was going to go one way or the other. If you're gonna call out the guy in blue for bad riding then call out mr asphalt muncher for riding head down and not paying attention. Hopefully they'll learn something from this incident.
     
  5. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    The mistake was the chief ref's. Pull lapped riders.

    Failing that, blue shorts needs a set of directional blinkers.


    "Blue.

    Erratic line and poor judgement given the line taken into the pass. No reason to "thread the needle". Not knowing what was behind the camera, the better line appeared to be left of both orange stripe riders."

    This. Blue shorts had a clear line to pass both orange stripe riders by going up the left side.
     
  6. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    +5. Percent that is. Guy in blue wins the prize. For #1 bonehead.
     
  7. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    "For #1 bonehead."

    Cat 4, I would guess.
     
  8. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    We would need a report on the ratio of shaved legs to not to confirm for sure. Could even be Cat5.
     
  9. vspa

    vspa Active Member

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  10. alienator

    alienator Well-Known Member

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    There should be severe punishment for anyone chopping front wheels, no matter whether they're pedal or motor powered. In racing, it's the responsibility of the guy passing someone to pass safely. Hopefully, Mr. Blue forgot about his bike on the roof rack when he pulled into his garage at home.
     
  11. daveryanwyoming

    daveryanwyoming Well-Known Member

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    Well even though he'd just seen the garage as he approached it, he clearly forgot it was there as soon as it was out of his sight and accelerated right into it. Seems consistent with how he negotiated his change of line in the most dramatic fashion in that crit after just passing the dude. I wonder if he drives on the freeway like that, jam past a car then take it out with a hard cut right.

    And come on Swampy, sure if the dude with red stripes was boatin' along overlapped in a paceline that's one thing but he'd just been quickly passed and there's no expectation that the guy passing will hook right across your front wheel. What do you do in crits, hard brake every time someone comes by you just in case they decide to cut sideways into your wheel, great way to be off the back in the first lap.

    Watching it again it's all on blue's shoulders.
     
  12. ambal

    ambal Active Member

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    You lucky for not being able to hold a wheel /img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif IMO, poor riding all round by the three involved.

    The blue guy needs to look beyond his head stem.
    Fallen rider needs to look beyond the wheel in front.
    Ref should have pulled the lapped rider, tho not always possible.

    Nice footage are you running a gopro?
     
  13. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    "We would need a report on the ratio of shaved legs to not to confirm for sure. Could even be Cat5."

    LMAO!

    We should also check for the ratio of GoPro's multiplied by Power Tap hubs/SRM's divided by 50 MM carbon wheels! Possibly a Citizen class!

    Kidz these days have all the cool toys. Mad skillz, not so much.
     
  14. danfoz

    danfoz Well-Known Member

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    When I got into racing way back when the citizens class was a bunch of fat guys with hairy legs. These days it's wiley looking beanpoles with deep tans from Florida training camps and CF wheels. Apparently MTV started with a catalogue of 200 music vids. I remember one of those early VJ's saying anyone with a music video could have become instantly famous. No easy competition anymore, anywhere.
     
  15. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    "No easy competition anymore, anywhere."

    Yeah, no Varsity's or Sears Free Spirits on the starting lines lately...although I did spot a guy in a wife beater (ref tossed him off the start line of a Citizen's cat!).

    At a local RR the distances had the usual graduations, but the MPH results were almost matched across the 4 field thru the Masters 45+ thru the 1-2 field. And I don't think adding another 10-mile lap to the lower Cats would have slowed the averages.

    The difference is in finishing percentages. The 3 field would have a 90% bunch finish while the 5 field would be maybe 30%-50% and the rest blown, wrecked, tossing chunks or lost on the course.
     
  16. stevegreer

    stevegreer Member

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    I'd say there were several pieces to this puzzle, but the most obvious at fault for the crash was little boy blue as a quick check over both shoulders would have shown him having a clear shot at going left to pass the lapped rider and that going right would have... well, we saw the results of that. Also true that the ground kisser should have known that he should keep his head up and have situational awareness of the riders in front of him and passing him. And lastly, maybe mister lapped rider should have saved some money for a personal trainer instead of wasting it on those wheels... which obviously didn't help him at all.
     
  17. boisestate

    boisestate New Member

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    COLD, Ambol. Cold! I was tail gunning for sure. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif There was some sketchiness in the previous corner, so I sat up a little and this happened.
     
  18. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    No, if you see a guy passing you and there's a hint of a chance that he'll go infront of you, you pay damned close attention to him. He moves, you move. It's not like they're short on space. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? When blue passed Mr Asphalt Muncher, Mr AM was a good few feet to the right of the double yellow line. When the whoopsie happened he'd wandered over to the center and blue took out his wheel. It's his front wheel and he should be watching for crap like that. If he hadnt wandered that few feet over he'd probably have stayed on his wheels. If he'd been watching the wheels he'd have stayed upright. Sure Mr Blue shouldn't have gone right but he probably doesnt have eyes in the back of his head either. I still stand by my either/or... Some of the crap that used to happen would end up before Congress with an overhaul of the sport if done now. We'd all be riding in Michelin man suits at 4mph on a kiddies rubber play surface. Riding with your arse hanging out of your shorts with a big wet strawberry is a sure sign you messed up. It's part of the "fun" of racing and should quickly instill a "pay more attention" next time. As I said recently in another thread - peripheral vision is your friend. If we want to get picky about what shouldn't happen in crits it'd be about duffers and full carbon wheels. You end up with people that can't corner or hold a line due to lack of racing experience and all that compounded by lack of even braking on wheels only used once in a blue moon. eBay carbon suicide hoops with zero modulation and erratic behavior. Cat 4 and 5 should be on alloy rims. Even guys like Jens Voight have trouble staying upright on descents on the new tangled hoops.
     
  19. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    "There was some sketchiness in the previous corner, so I sat up a little and this happened."

    Smart riding.



    "Some of the crap that used to happen would end up before Congress with an overhaul of the sport if done now. We'd all be riding in Michelin man suits at 4mph on a kiddies rubber play surface. Riding with your arse hanging out of your shorts with a big wet strawberry is a sure sign you messed up. It's part of the "fun" of racing and should quickly instill a "pay more attention" next time. As I said recently in another thread - peripheral vision is your friend."

    Yes sir. We have eliminated someone from the equation.


    [​IMG]
     
  20. CAMPYBOB

    CAMPYBOB Well-Known Member

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    "Cat 4 and 5 should be on alloy rims."

    No way brah! I gots to look pro! Check out these bad boy carbon bar plugs!

    It is sad to watch a new racer dragging his 2-piece racing bike back to the parking lot, but 5's/4's have been doing dumb shit since the days of toe clips and hairnets. The most important piece of equipment lies between the ears and it often goes unused.
     
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