Critical Mass Tunnel Freaks



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Chalo wrote: <snip>
> Your take on this motorist attack seems like that of a tool too.

Ad hominem, but that's the best shot you can take.
 
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:07:42 -0700, Zoot Katz <[email protected]> wrote:

>The ugliest part of the incident is that the driver wasn't charged with the crime he committed
>because of the sleazy oil-slicked political agendas in Texas.

way you're phrasing it makes you sound like a complete lunatic & kook.

Jasper
 
"Automator" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Just a Cyclist" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Critical Mass is a protest, just like any other, and it has every
right
> to
> > > exist.
> > Yes it does.......but when it stomps on others rights......it has no
place
> > here or anywhere
>
> So ... what "rights" are cyclists stomping on? Drivers have no rights.
What? What kind of pure **** is that?

> That's why they pay licensing and registration fees, why traffic movement
is
> heavily regulated, why you can't drive until a given age, why your license can be taken away at
> any time. CM riders are not stomping on any rights.

So blocking a street so I can't walk across it is not stomping on my rights?? Pure BS
> They are infringing on privelege. You saying CM is taking away rights is like say public school
> kids are stomping on the rights of private school brats.
What are you some kind of socialist or communist??? That is what it sounds like......no wonder CM is
a bunch of **** (Since public schools take away money and land and prestige that
> COULD go to the private school.)
>
> Get it straight what is a right and what is a privledge.

I just did........you should look in the mirror and say that.........
 
In article <[email protected]>, "Just a Cyclist" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> So blocking a street so I can't walk across it is not stomping on my rights?? Pure BS

So how come cars get away with it all the time, but a few minutes per month of bikes doing it, and
some ppl gotta run around with their hair on fire about it?

--
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[point] bc [point] ca
 
"Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Just a Cyclist" <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> > So blocking a street so I can't walk across it is not stomping on my rights?? Pure BS
>
> So how come cars get away with it all the time, but a few minutes per month of bikes doing it, and
> some ppl gotta run around with their hair on fire about it?

Good we are changing the subject........yes they are violating my right to cross the street! It
is a right!

Because they are not only blocking the crosswalk........the street and others rights...... because
they think they are promoting something for a bicycle...... Wrong.. when I ride I still get the back
lash of there
MC.........they do nothing to promote cycling or better thinks for all bike riders.... They are
civil disobedient........and are nothing but disruptors of peace.
>
> --
> -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
> [point] bc [point] ca
 
Just a Cyclist wrote:

> "Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, "Just a Cyclist" <[email protected]> writes:
> > >
> > > So blocking a street so I can't walk across it is not stomping on my rights?? Pure BS
> >
> > So how come cars get away with it all the time, but a few minutes per month of bikes doing it,
> > and some ppl gotta run around with their hair on fire about it?
>
> Good we are changing the subject........yes they are violating my right to cross the street! It is
> a right!
>
> Because they are not only blocking the crosswalk........the street and others rights...... because
> they think they are promoting something for a bicycle...... Wrong.. when I ride I still get the
> back lash of there
> MC.........they do nothing to promote cycling or better thinks for all bike riders.... They are
> civil disobedient........and are nothing but disruptors of peace.
> >
> > --
> > -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
> > [point] bc [point] ca

Oh come now. Has anyone ever given you a hard time because CM rides once in a while? I ride my bike
every day of the year <nearly> and CM does rides in Vancouver, which is right next door to me. No
one has ever given me any grief at all because of the behaviour of CM. How has it been for you? And
where are you, by the by? Bernie
 
In article <[email protected]>, "Just a Cyclist" <[email protected]> writes:

>> So how come cars get away with it all the time, but a few minutes per month of bikes doing it,
>> and some ppl gotta run around with their hair on fire about it?
>
> Good we are changing the subject........yes they are violating my right to cross the street! It is
> a right!

Yeah, the way folks kow-tow to the Almighty Automobile truly sux the big one. Every left-turn bay
that adds width to intersections, and every right-on-red rule, violates pedestrians' rights to cross
the street in a safe and timely manner.

Pedestrians really get the short & dirty end of the stick; cars get sucked-up to, way more than
they deserve.

Critical Mass is, at least in part, an human-powered uprising against this unjust imbalance. And
where unjust imbalances occur, uprisings are inevitable. Y'don't like it? Boo hoo. Critical Mass
isn't just about vehicles, including bikes -- it's about /people/.

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[point] bc [point] ca
 
Congratulations, so am I, & about 90% of Australia'a population.

Is that the same compartmentalised mentality that classifies all members of a particular movement
that you personally don't agree with,

Love that Macho Man mentality, now I understand the nickname Jerko.

John L.

On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 08:26:06 GMT, [email protected] (Jarkko Altonen) wrote:

>Yes of course I'm a pedestrian - and so is 99% of the population.
>
>I am also a cyclist and do about 140km/week.
>
>And I'm even a motorist.
>
>Doesn't really fit your little compartmentalised world does it?
 
Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:41:39 -0700, <[email protected]>, "Just a Cyclist"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Wrong.. when I ride I still get the back lash of there

There's no way to prove that statement but you're free to believe it. Though, without proof you're
just spouting paraniod fantasies.

The movie in your head is just that. Have some popcorn.
--
zk
 
Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:25:42 GMT, <[email protected]>, Jasper Janssen
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 17:34:03 -0700, Zoot Katz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>When they use their cars as weapons, they're scum and should be dealt with accordingly.
>
>In this particular case, the guy did not "use his car as a weapon" until he was assaulted with
>weapons. That's open and shut self-defense, you know.
>
>Jasper

You weren't involved so you don't know the sequence of events. The printed report was the driver's
side of the story. The story I read reported two punches were thrown when he got out of the vehicle
after he'd run over a bike and smashed into a car. His tires, not his body, was assaulted with a
weapon though it's understandable how you'd be willing to make excuses for scumbags.
--
zk
 
Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:08:57 GMT, <[email protected]>, "Buck" <j u n k m a i
l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote:

>You really don't know much about Texas, do you?

Actually, I care spit for Texas, Democrat or Republican.

Remember most, and I do mean the far greater majority, of drivers have never seen or been delayed by
a Critical Mass ride. When the media notices it's because something bad happens. They're the ones
you should be blaming for this dreaded "back-lash" you imagine.

I've seen cars attempt to crash a mass and they're surrounded by bicycles quite quickly. The words
most often heard from the cyclists are "please" and "patience". That usually works. Threats of
violence are most often countered with laughter. Other cyclists are encouraged to keep moving.
Video, cameras and cel-phones have some effect at diffusing tense situations. The Jeep jerk crossed
the line when he hit the bikes or people with his vehicle.

If this guy was trying to get away from the cyclists and not heading further into the mass, then
yeah, I'll agree their actions were extreme, providing that no one had yet been hit. If he was
heading into the rest of the mass then it makes sense to contain him. If he was trying to flee after
hitting the person, then he's blessedly lucky to have not been meted his due.
--
zk
 
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:41:39 -0700, "Just a Cyclist" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "Just a Cyclist" <[email protected]> writes:
>> >
>> > So blocking a street so I can't walk across it is not stomping on my rights?? Pure BS
>>
>> So how come cars get away with it all the time, but a few minutes per month of bikes doing it,
>> and some ppl gotta run around with their hair on fire about it?
>
>Good we are changing the subject........yes they are violating my right to cross the street! It
>is a right!

Oh really? I was under the impression that as public roads, the right you have to acces that public
road is a legislated privilege not a RIGHT. You do not have a RIGHT to walk across a road anymore
than you have the RIGHT to enter my front door. I will afford you the privilege but not the right,
likewise with yourself crossing a road; a PUBLIC road.

Now, if you are talking about a private road you own, then privilege changes to right.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Mayhem <[email protected]> writes:

> Oh really? I was under the impression that as public roads, the right you have to acces that
> public road is a legislated privilege not a RIGHT. You do not have a RIGHT to walk across a road
> anymore than you have the RIGHT to enter my front door.

Public streets & roads are a Commons, and as such are free to Everyone's use. That's how they're
"public". Put another way, it's not the access per se to them that is regulated, it is the vehicles
upon them. Your front door is not a Commons. Your impression is wrong.

And cyclists have a right to use public roads, except under express restriction or prohibition.

cheers, & IANAL,
Tom

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[point] bc [point] ca
 
Ok, the next time you are laying in your yard near death, have one of your CM buddies bike you to
the hospital. No need to suck up to an auto. Also make sure the paramedics do not suck up to an auto
by driving to your house. They can also bike or walk there.

"Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Just a Cyclist" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >> So how come cars get away with it all the time, but a few minutes per month of bikes doing it,
> >> and some ppl gotta run around with their hair on fire about it?
> >
> > Good we are changing the subject........yes they are violating my right
to
> > cross the street! It is a right!
>
> Yeah, the way folks kow-tow to the Almighty Automobile truly sux the big one. Every left-turn bay
> that adds width to intersections, and every right-on-red rule, violates pedestrians' rights to
> cross the street in a safe and timely manner.
>
> Pedestrians really get the short & dirty end of the stick; cars get sucked-up to, way more than
> they deserve.
>
> Critical Mass is, at least in part, an human-powered uprising against this unjust imbalance. And
> where unjust imbalances occur, uprisings are inevitable. Y'don't like it? Boo hoo. Critical Mass
> isn't just about vehicles, including bikes -- it's about /people/.
>
>
> --
> -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
> [point] bc [point] ca
 
"Zoot Katz" <[email protected]> wrote

> diffusing tense situations. The Jeep jerk crossed the line when he hit the bikes or people with
> his vehicle.
>
> If this guy was trying to get away from the cyclists and not heading further into the mass, then
> yeah, I'll agree their actions were extreme, providing that no one had yet been hit. If he was
> heading into the rest of the mass then it makes sense to contain him. If he was trying to flee
> after hitting the person, then he's blessedly lucky to have not been meted his due.

Here's an excerpt from another article on the same website where the video-captures are located:

"Yes, when the cyclists stopped traffic on Congress when the cyclists illegally ran a red light,
Mike Henderson probably should have just sat on his horn like the rest of the drivers and just
tolerated the delay. But he didn't. He went around the traffic and stopped at the next intersection.
Too aggressive? Maybe. But we as Austin drivers all know how many aggressive offenses we witness a
day that go unpunished. If a police officer doesn't witness it, basically it didn't happen.

Henderson then came to the next intersection and stopped at the traffic light -- which is where all
this mess begins. The cyclists, apparently quite like Gomer Pyle, decided they had the authority to
make a citizen's arrest for Henderson's aggressive driving. Now, even if they did actually believe
that they had the authority to detain Henderson, I ask you, did any single person in the group
actually make a call or seek out police so that the proper authorities could intervene? I'll answer
this one for you -- no. Absolutely not. There is no record of a report of an aggressive driver at
First and Congress, and even if there were a call -- the cyclists absolutely still did not have the
authority to detain Henderson. By the way, the cyclists also harassed the passenger. "Accomplice to
the crime" -- is that his charge, Gomer?"

So, here are the events as reported in various articles. First, CM cyclists illegally block the
intersection of Second and Congress. The Jeep driver went around them when the light turned green
possibly squealing his tires, but otherwise without incident. The cyclists followed him to the
intersection of Chavez and Congress. At least one placed himself and his bicycle in front of the
Jeep. Words and spittle were exchanged between the cyclists and both the Jeep driver and passenger.
At least one of the Jeep tires was slashed. The Jeep driver decided to leave the situation and did
so aggressively, running over a bike then hitting a Honda in the process. Fisticuffs ensued between
the driver and two cyclists.

It looks to me like the normal CM tactics, combined with an upset driver and followed up by cyclist
vigilantees, led to a dangerous situation. If the chain had been broken at any point - CM cylists
did not block the first intersection; the driver didn't go around them; the cyclists didn't follow,
block the Jeep with a human/bicycle road block and harrass them - then the situation would not have
made the evening news.

But this is standard procedure for CM. In an effort to keep the ride together, they routinely block
intersections. The "peacable" protest to show that bicycles are a part of traffic actually works to
hinder traffic. They break traffic laws on every ride. Not a great example of how bicycles are
supposed to be a part ofthe normal flow of traffic, now is it? Their claims that cars cause a
greater traffic jam are only partly true. Auto drivers are well aware that if they are sitting in an
intersection when the light changes, they are subject to a ticket. CM cyclists believe that because
the are "protestors," they are above the law.

Then factor in the numerous accounts of them spitting on cars, kicking cars, verbally abusing
motorists, etc., it's no wonder so many cyclists see CM as a poor representation of their interests.

-Buck
 
Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:38:31 GMT, <[email protected]>, "Buck" <j u n k m a i
l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote:

> The cyclists followed him to the intersection of Chavez and Congress. At least one placed himself
> and his bicycle in front of the Jeep.

So that makes it okay for Jeep jerk to run them down with his car?

Before hitting the cyclist, was he trying to leave or was he heading further into the mass? Do you
know? That's a crucial detail which from of the posted reports still isn't clear to me.

Some of us have discussed how to handle drivers crashing a mass. We figured it's best to get any
cyclists originally involved in the conflict to leave (unless they're victims of an assault and wish
to press charges) and let cooler heads remain at the scene until the mass has cleared the immediate
area. Cameras, videos and cel-phones tend to keep everyone somewhat civil.
--
zk
 
"Ted" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ok, the next time you are laying in your yard near death, have one of your CM buddies bike you to
> the hospital. No need to suck up to an auto. Also make sure the paramedics do not suck up to an
> auto by driving to your house. They can also bike or walk there.

Why would he be in such a state unless he'd been maimed by a car driver?

Chalo
 
"Zoot Katz" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote:
>
> > The cyclists followed him to the intersection of Chavez and Congress. At least one placed
> > himself and his bicycle in front of the Jeep.
>
> So that makes it okay for Jeep jerk to run them down with his car?

Again, he hit no one at the first intersection. At the second, who really knows what was happening.
I'm sure that there were threats being passed back and forth. If I were in a situation where I had a
group of people threatening me, I wouldn't care much for the ones trying to prevent my forward
movement either. What would you do in the same situation? Stay there and possibly get assaulted by a
group of guys? Or would you do your best to high-tail it out of there?

> Before hitting the cyclist, was he trying to leave or was he heading further into the mass? Do you
> know? That's a crucial detail which from of the posted reports still isn't clear to me.

It seems to me that the mass was going down Second street. Only a few followed him up Congress to
Chavez where the altercation occurred. Even in the still frames from the video, only a few cyclists
are seen. Where the caption says he "ran over" Davis, only three bicycles can be seen and two are
behind/beside the Jeep. This is hardly a "crowd" (which they refer to in another caption) and
certainly not much of a mass.

> Some of us have discussed how to handle drivers crashing a mass. We figured it's best to get any
> cyclists originally involved in the conflict to leave (unless they're victims of an assault and
> wish to press charges) and let cooler heads remain at the scene until the mass has cleared the
> immediate area. Cameras, videos and cel-phones tend to keep everyone somewhat civil.

In this case, it is pretty clear that a group decided that they were upset enough to follow a driver
down a different street and confront him. Perhaps if they were privy to your ideas on how to handle
the situation, it wouldn't have happened. Then again, perhaps if they had not illegally blocked the
intersection without a police escort, it wouldn't have happened.

-Buck
 
Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:25:52 GMT, <[email protected]>, "Ted"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Ok, the next time you are laying in your yard near death, have one of your CM buddies bike you to
>the hospital. No need to suck up to an auto. Also make sure the paramedics do not suck up to an
>auto by driving to your house. They can also bike or walk there.

Well zilchwit, if the streets were blocked with cars or otherwise impassable, Vancouver's
para-medics would arrive by bicycle ahead of an ambulance. Their job would be to stabilise the
patient for transport by ambulance. Two bicycles carry all the resuscitation gear necessary.

Even here where priority is given to pedestrians, bicycles and public transit over private vehicles
in official planning policy, senior engineering staff are still stuck in fossil-burner mode. There
is increasing pressure on city council to rectify the situation and fulfill the mandate they were
given by the electorate. Heads may roll.

Cars suck the life from cities and create a killing ground at your front door. Enjoy it. You asked
for it by getting sucked into the mass delusion called car culture.
--
zk
 
Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:57:22 GMT, <[email protected]>, "Buck" <j u n k m a i l
@ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote:

>Then again, perhaps if they had not illegally blocked the intersection without a police escort, it
>wouldn't have happened.

Yeah, we should all just quit trying to live in our cities and give the streets over to cars for
those remaining two hours per month when some streets become safe places for humans.

How many times have you been blocked by other traffic because one driver broke a law or did
something stupid? Did you ram them?

Highway 99 north of the city is frequently closed for hours at a time because some incompetent
pepper got frustrated with a stunned nincompoop and bounced his car off the mountain or into the
chuck trying to pass unsafely or illegally. Cars suck.

Jeep jerk used his vehicle as a weapon to intimidate and then hit people because he couldn't control
his temper and you're willing to condone his behaviour. That sucks.
--
zk
 
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