Critical Mass Tunnel Freaks

[Buck]

"Zoot Katz" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:57:22 GMT, <[email protected]>, "Buck" <j u n k m a i
> l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote:
>
> >Then again, perhaps if they had not illegally blocked the intersection without a police escort,
> >it wouldn't have happened.

> How many times have you been blocked by other traffic because one driver broke a law or did
> something stupid? Did you ram them?

How many times have I had my car surrounded by knife-wielding maniacs on bicycles? Never. Would I
ram one to get away? Probably. Have I found myself on the receiving end of a maniac in a car? Yes.
Did I break laws while getting away? Yes. Would I ram a car, pedestrian or cyclist for blocking an
intersection? Of course not. Have I ever seen anyone purposely blocking an intersection while on a
bicycle? Only in the tales that come from a CM ride.

> Jeep jerk used his vehicle as a weapon to intimidate and then hit people because he couldn't
> control his temper and you're willing to condone his behaviour. That sucks.

I'm not condoning his behavior for the happenings at the first intersection. I'm symapthetic to his
position at the second intersection. I've been in a crowd when things got violent and I know what it
is like to be scared of what might happen next. What sucks in this situation is that so many CM
supporters think that the CM participants in this matter are saintly. They acted like a bunch of
hooligans and escalated what was a bad thing to begin with.

-Buck

 

[Kevan Smith]

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 16:15:12 -0700, Zoot Katz <[email protected]> from Balsa Pacific Aero Ltd.
Engineering & Bicycle Mongery wrote:

>Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:25:52 GMT, <[email protected]>, "Ted"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Ok, the next time you are laying in your yard near death, have one of your CM buddies bike you to
>>the hospital. No need to suck up to an auto. Also make sure the paramedics do not suck up to an
>>auto by driving to your house. They can also bike or walk there.
>
>Well zilchwit, if the streets were blocked with cars or otherwise impassable, Vancouver's
>para-medics would arrive by bicycle ahead of an ambulance.

Also, if emergency vehicles were the only cars on the road, you'd get their services much quicker.

--
http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace a smelly meat is a lovely penguin!
7:42:45 PM 1 July 2003

 

[Zoot Katz]

Wed, 02 Jul 2003 00:41:58 GMT, <[email protected]>, "Buck" <j u n k m a i
l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote: \snip
>
>I'm not condoning his behavior for the happenings at the first intersection. I'm symapthetic to his
>position at the second intersection. I've been in a crowd when things got violent and I know what
>it is like to be scared of what might happen next. What sucks in this situation is that so many CM
>supporters think that the CM participants in this matter are saintly. They acted like a bunch of
>hooligans and escalated what was a bad thing to begin with.
>
Not saintly, merely human. Tell me a commuter, roadie or mountain biker has never run down,
threatened and/or otherwise engaged a raging cager in some intense communication. Honestly.

A few individuals. A minuscule percentage of the movement as it stood two year ago in Austin.
Vancouver's rides were also more confrontational at one point. It takes some degree of awareness
among the participants that we are not out for confrontation or gloves-off actions. We're there as a
reminder that they're our streets too. We're there to flaunt that fact and to accomplish this we
need to maintain some level of social decorum. One way is by demonstrating that it's more fun to
ride a bike than sit in a car going nowhere.

The hardest thing for some minds to grasp is that CM is not a structured organisation. It's more
like an organism in that it's evolving and adapting to its environment. Nobody, except the redneck
media maybe, wants people on bikes to be branded hooligans or knife-weilding maniacs. Some people on
the rides might be kinda new to the non-violent approach and slip into their old ways when pressed
but you'd probably find CM has developed a kinder, gentler approach in cities where the movement has
thrived and grown. That's why all these negative stories you collect about bad CM rides are mostly
old news and isolated incidents.

Remember there are millions of people, from all walks of life riding their bikes together in
Critical Mass rides, all over the western world, every last Friday, every month of the year. Yet not
many make the news. Why's that you figure?
--
zk

 

[Southbaybent]

"Ted" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Ok, the next time you are laying in your yard near death, have one of your CM buddies bike you to
> the hospital. No need to suck up to an auto. Also make sure the paramedics do not suck up to an
> auto by driving to your house. They can also bike or walk there.

No one is saying "eliminate ALL moror vehicles." I recommend you seek balance. Balance in your use
of polluting and greener technologies. Try balancing your selfish indignation with reasoned
argument, your need to attempt clever posts with reading and comprehending the thread.

speaking of balancing I'm still trying to reconcile driving my gas guzzling and paid for SUV and
commuting on my Lightning Phantom. Who should I suck up to? The damn autos or the CM bas**rds?

 

[Eric S. Sande]

>It takes some degree of awareness among the participants that we are not out for confrontation or
>gloves-off actions. We're there as a reminder that they're our streets too.

Zoot, I'm out there too. I''m not out to remind anyone that there are courteous cyclists on the
road. I'm out there to get to work, or the store, or whatever. Maybe I'm out there to ride fast to
nowhere in particular. But I'm out there.

>We're there to flaunt that fact and to accomplish this we need to maintain some level of
>social decorum. One way is by demonstrating that it's more fun to ride a bike than sit in a
>car going nowhere.

You're making it harder for me to ride correctly in dense urban traffic. Just like messengers do.
Anybody who doesn't ride in a rule based manner creates bad expectations on the part of other road
users. That impacts on me.

And that is why I think CM is full of ****.

I remind you that I have worked hard to build my skills as far as traffic riding is concerned. I'm
pretty good at it. I'd put my traffic skills as, well, better than Martha Stewart stuffing a turkey.

As far as I'm concerned CM is Martha going to jail.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________

 

[Zoot Katz]

Wed, 02 Jul 2003 02:39:59 -0400, <[email protected]>, "Eric S. Sande"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Anybody who doesn't ride in a rule based manner creates bad expectations on the part of other road
> users. That impacts on me.
>

What percentage of drivers who have seen a Critical Mass ride are impacting you who wouldn't have
otherwise? Or, is that alleged impact due to what the media reports about CM?

The media doesn't report non-events. But may have an agenda to paint cycling in a negative light
because of the owner's political position, so they'll grasp at any chance, regardless of how remote,
to disparage cycling and cyclists.

Those jerks you claim are impacting you were there long before people started pointing at CM as an
excuse for the way they treat cyclists. Their lousy behaviour toward cyclists gets tacit approval
every time their inattention, incompetence or aggressiveness kills a cyclist and they're not
sanctioned by our car-centric society. CM is a response to this situation, not the cause of it.

>And that is why I think CM is full of ****.

I think the status quo is full of ****. CM is partly culture jamming, partly political activism and
partly a street social.
--
zk

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 00:42:48 -0700, Zoot Katz <[email protected]> wrote:

>You weren't involved so you don't know the sequence of events. The

Neither were you, and do you.

>printed report was the driver's side of the story. The story I read reported two punches were
>thrown when he got out of the vehicle after he'd run over a bike and smashed into a car. His

Still wrong.

>tires, not his body, was assaulted with a weapon though it's

If you saw ten Hell's Angels approaching your bike from all sides, some armed with knives, what
would your response be?

>understandable how you'd be willing to make excuses for scumbags.

Oh, really? Why, pray tell.

Jasper

 

[Tom Keats]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (SouthBayBent) writes:
> "Ted" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> Ok, the next time you are laying in your yard near death, have one of your CM buddies bike you to
>> the hospital. No need to suck up to an auto. Also make sure the paramedics do not suck up to an
>> auto by driving to your house. They can also bike or walk there.
>
> No one is saying "eliminate ALL moror vehicles." I recommend you seek balance. Balance in your use
> of polluting and greener technologies. Try balancing your selfish indignation with reasoned
> argument, your need to attempt clever posts with reading and comprehending the thread.

Sounds good to me.

> speaking of balancing I'm still trying to reconcile driving my gas guzzling and paid for SUV and
> commuting on my Lightning Phantom.

Let your own conscience be your guide. It'll know what to do, regardless of what anyone else says.

> Who should I suck up to?

Nobody.

> The damn autos or the CM bas**rds?

cheers, Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
[point] bc [point] ca

 

[Eric S. Sande]

>>Anybody who doesn't ride in a rule based manner creates bad expectations on the part of other road
>>users. That impacts on me.

This is going to be a long debate.

>What percentage of drivers who have seen a Critical Mass ride are impacting you who wouldn't have
>otherwise? Or, is that alleged impact due to what the media reports about CM?

It doesn't matter what the media reports about CM. What matters is that anything that inconveniences
drivers makes them angry.

And they are angry to begin with, given the traffic situations where you and I ride.

>The media doesn't report non-events. But may have an agenda to paint cycling in a negative light
>because of the owner's political position, so they'll grasp at any chance, regardless of how
>remote, to disparage cycling and cyclists.

No, I disagree. In DC the Washington Post and the major TV stations are pro cycling to an extent.
The traffic here is so bad that anything that will alleviate it is politically desirable.

>Those jerks you claim are impacting you were there long before people started pointing at CM as an
>excuse for the way they treat cyclists. Their lousy behaviour toward cyclists gets tacit approval
>every time their inattention, incompetence or aggressiveness kills a cyclist and they're not
>sanctioned by our car-centric society.

In fact the reverse is the case. Everyone here gives lip service to the ideal of the individual law
abiding cyclist taking care of business.

No one seems to subscribe to mass demonstrations that represent collective action against other
road users.

>CM is a response to this situation, not the cause of it.

CM isn't always appropriate in a given context.

>And that is why I think CM is full of ****.

>>I think the status quo is full of ****. CM is partly culture jamming, partly political activism
>>and partly a street social.

And that's OK. I have to use the roads as they are, not as CM might conceptualize them. Zoot, we
have mass demonstrations here on a daily basis.

When cyclists decide to demonstrate in DC it brings out the cops and a lot of bad karma. And that's
a problem for your basic commuting dude.

I might get arrested for being mistaken for a CM guy, well, there's a lot worse things to get
arrested for. But how am I going to explain why I wasn't at work.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________

 

[Zoot Katz]

Thu, 03 Jul 2003 22:47:40 -0400, <[email protected]>, "Eric S. Sande"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>>Anybody who doesn't ride in a rule based manner creates bad expectations on the part of other
>>>road users. That impacts on me.

I can see and someways agree with what you're saying. One impact stop running cyclist have on my
riding is that I must sometimes dab at a stop in order to get some stunned turd to move it's can.
>
>This is going to be a long debate.
>
>>What percentage of drivers who have seen a Critical Mass ride are impacting you who wouldn't have
>>otherwise? Or, is that alleged impact due to what the media reports about CM?
>
>It doesn't matter what the media reports about CM. What matters is that anything that
>inconveniences drivers makes them angry.
>
>And they are angry to begin with, given the traffic situations where you and I ride.

That's not attributable to either of ours riding a bike. It's their movie. I think we can agree it's
a B grade re-run.
>
>>The media doesn't report non-events. But may have an agenda to paint cycling in a negative light
>>because of the owner's political position, so they'll grasp at any chance, regardless of how
>>remote, to disparage cycling and cyclists.
>
>No, I disagree. In DC the Washington Post and the major TV stations are pro cycling to an extent.
>The traffic here is so bad that anything that will alleviate it is politically desirable.
>
But you'll still never see anything about Critical Mass, unless it's a comic filler sign-off
blurbble. . . until something bad happens.

>>Those jerks you claim are impacting you were there long before people started pointing at CM as an
>>excuse for the way they treat cyclists. Their lousy behaviour toward cyclists gets tacit approval
>>every time their inattention, incompetence or aggressiveness kills a cyclist and they're not
>>sanctioned by our car-centric society.
>
>In fact the reverse is the case. Everyone here gives lip service to the ideal of the individual law
>abiding cyclist taking care of business.
>
>No one seems to subscribe to mass demonstrations that represent collective action against other
>road users.
>
Farmers and truckers do it and nobody complains about it as loudly as they do when a
bicycle does it.

I watched slack traffic back up Broadway for 8 or 10 blocks while a trolley bus detoured around a
tow truck that was having difficulties removing an illegally parked car. No horns, no fist shaking,
no running buses or tow trucks into the gutter for the rest of the month.

>>CM is a response to this situation, not the cause of it.
>
>CM isn't always appropriate in a given context.
>
I sounds like D.C. might be the wrong environment for progressive action if the police are being
instructed to respond hostilely to CM.

>>And that is why I think CM is full of ****.
>
>>>I think the status quo is full of ****. CM is partly culture jamming, partly political activism
>>>and partly a street social.
>
>And that's OK. I have to use the roads as they are, not as CM might conceptualize them. Zoot, we
>have mass demonstrations here on a daily basis.

Then CM shouldn't have much impact on traffic or cagers psyche. You don't go around krypto bashing
cars with bumper stickers you find offensive because of demonstrations that delayed you. One beauty
of CM is that the roads do become as we conceptualise because we make it so with our presence. The
more the merrier.
>
>When cyclists decide to demonstrate in DC it brings out the cops and a lot of bad karma. And that's
>a problem for your basic commuting dude.

That's a problem for the citizens when their cops haven't better things to do than harass cyclists,
unless of course, that's what they're paying them to do.
>
>I might get arrested for being mistaken for a CM guy, well, there's a lot worse things to get
>arrested for. But how am I going to explain why I wasn't at work.

Because you told 'em to shove their job, shaved and turned pro?
--
zk

 

[Eric S. Sande]

>Because you told 'em to shove their job, shaved and turned pro?

About as likely as you admitting that CM represented objectiveless civil disobedience, Zoot.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________

 

[Zoot Katz]

Fri, 04 Jul 2003 02:23:20 -0400, <[email protected]>, "Eric S. Sande"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>Because you told 'em to shove their job, shaved and turned pro?
>
>About as likely as you admitting that CM represented objectiveless civil disobedience, Zoot.

I'll call it harmless culture jamming accomplished through objectiveless civil disobedience.
Three-Dee Rolling Graffiti.

Different aspects of the movement have interested me during various periods since my opinions
changed about 180 degrees.
--
zk

 

[Zoot Katz]

Sun, 06 Jul 2003 17:10:17 GMT, <[email protected]>, Goimir
<[email protected]> wrote:

> But remember, cyclists want "equal rights with cars",

fukdat! Cars have no rights and drivers have only privileges.

>so don't go doing anything you wouldn't want a car doing.

Cars form their own stinking critical mass every day.
--
zk

 

[Goimir]

Zoot Katz wrote:
>
> Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:57:22 GMT, <[email protected]>, "Buck" <j u n k m a i
> l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote:
>
> >Then again, perhaps if they had not illegally blocked the intersection without a police escort,
> >it wouldn't have happened.
>
> Yeah, we should all just quit trying to live in our cities and give the streets over to cars for
> those remaining two hours per month when some streets become safe places for humans.

No, we should work within the framework of the law, and only break the laws we disagree with. Do we
really think that red lights shouldn't exist? If so, keep running them, and we'll see what happens.
But remember, cyclists want "equal rights with cars", so don't go doing anything you wouldn't want a
car doing.

How about we only attack the laws which are unjust, such as those preventing us from using roads
which get us to our destinations in the most efficent manner?

> How many times have you been blocked by other traffic because one driver broke a law or did
> something stupid? Did you ram them?
>

How many times have I entered an intersection (with car or bicycle) threatening to hit the person
who is running the light/making a left turn in front of me when I have a green light? More times
than I can count.

> Highway 99 north of the city is frequently closed for hours at a time because some incompetent
> pepper got frustrated with a stunned nincompoop and bounced his car off the mountain or into the
> chuck trying to pass unsafely or illegally. Cars suck.

You're right, it is because of some "incompetent pepper". But you must remember your foe in any
fight. Cars themselves are not evil. It is the drivers of said cars, and not all of them to boot.

> Jeep jerk used his vehicle as a weapon to intimidate and then hit people because he couldn't
> control his temper and you're willing to condone his behaviour. That sucks.
> --
> zk

I think alot of people need to relearn where the civil disobedience movement came from, how it is
supposed to work, and how to react to different situations.

 

[Zoot Katz]

Sun, 06 Jul 2003 18:10:09 GMT, <[email protected]>, "Buck" <j u n k m a i
l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote:

> Many of us in the anti-CM crowd ride our bikes every day without causing the problems that CM
> riders do. Now, which one is the better example of how bicycles are a part of traffic?
>

Of all the persons I've met on CM rides, they too ride, more or less, responsibly as regular daily
traffic and have been, more or less, successfully doing so for years.
--
zk

 

[Buck]

"Zoot Katz" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> Cars form their own stinking critical mass every day.

Hardly. They don't purposely block the road. The road just has a limited carrying capacity and there
are enough of them out there to easily overcome
it. They also don't have "rolling parties." They don't purposely block intersections so that other
vehicles can't get through. They don't purposely clog roads and force everyone to move at their
pace - they are all trying to get through there as quickly as possible.

But these are all things that CM cyclists do every time they ride....

If CM wants to make a statement, then perhaps they should demonstrate how they can use the roads
without causing traffic problems. Many of us in the anti-CM crowd ride our bikes every day without
causing the problems that CM riders do. Now, which one is the better example of how bicycles are a
part of traffic?

-Buck

 

[Buck]

"Zoot Katz" <[email protected]>

> "Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote:
>
> > Many of us in the anti-CM crowd ride our bikes every day without causing the problems that
CM
> >riders do. Now, which one is the better example of how bicycles are a
part
> >of traffic?
> >
>
> Of all the persons I've met on CM rides, they too ride, more or less, responsibly as regular daily
> traffic and have been, more or less, successfully doing so for years.

Then their actions are to deliberately screw up traffic to declare that they are a part of
traffic?!?! How moronic is that? I'd bet that they would get a much more positive response if they
actually obeyed traffic laws and didn't wreak havoc on rush-hour traffic. Just imagine a hundred
cyclists actually moving with the normal flow of traffic. No efforts to "keep the group together."
No bad interaction with motorists. Actually moving along at the posted speed limits (easily
accomplished in downtown areas). If they show that they can do this as a group, then maybe they will
generate some respect for us all. As it is, dressed in costumes and holding up everyone else, they
don't do the rest of us cyclists any good. Cyclists are part of the fringe as it is. There is no
need to make the gap even larger.

-Buck

 

[Eric S. Sande]

>Of all the persons I've met on CM rides, they too ride, more or less, responsibly as regular daily
>traffic and have been, more or less, successfully doing so for years.

More or less. The question is which are more and which are less.

To me the ones who are more are people like the ones who ride every day, no matter the weather. On
the street. 90 degres F or subzero C, every day.

Not because they are great riders or because they need to do it.

Oh no. It's because they love to ride. CM is totally irrelevant to them because they would ride
under any circumstances.

Count on it.

That is the hard core of bicycling, putting it on the road every single day. Not riding in a party
once a month.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>, "Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o
r p . c o m> wrote:

> "Zoot Katz" <[email protected]>
>
> > "Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote:

> > Of all the persons I've met on CM rides, they too ride, more or less, responsibly as regular
> > daily traffic and have been, more or less, successfully doing so for years.
>
> Then their actions are to deliberately screw up traffic to declare that they are a part of
> traffic?!?! How moronic is that? I'd bet that they would get a much more positive response if they
> actually obeyed traffic laws and didn't wreak havoc on rush-hour traffic. Just imagine a hundred
> cyclists actually moving with the normal flow of traffic. No efforts to "keep the group together."
> No bad interaction with motorists. Actually moving along at the posted speed limits (easily
> accomplished in downtown areas). If they show that they can do this as a group, then maybe they
> will generate some respect for us all. As it is, dressed in costumes and holding up everyone else,
> they don't do the rest of us cyclists any good. Cyclists are part of the fringe as it is. There is
> no need to make the gap even larger.

I think you've hit on something. The CM ethos that "we are traffic" is at odds with the apparent
behaviour.

I know, I know, CM has no central organization, I know, I know, CM is whatever the Mass decides it
is. But barring a single voice, we can only judge CM rides by their actions and effects. CM rides
don't look like traffic, and they certainly don't always act like cyclists trying to get home, or
even out for a ride. For a good example of 200-400 cyclists riding "like traffic", try the Pacific
Populaire ride every year. The cyclists tend, after a very short bunch start, to spread out and ride
at their own pace, on open roads, for 100 km. Ad hoc and planned groups form up as clubs or others
paceline together for efficiency, and there is much rejoicing. There is an entry fee, but
refreshments are served.

The fair counterargument might be that the Pac Pop happens on a Sunday morning and toodles
through areas that are decidedly not downtown. But the Populaire riding concept still has a lot
more to do with "vehicular cycling" (the oft-quoted ideal of regular road-using cyclists) than
the CM rolling party.

Hey, a rolling party is a great idea. But a rolling party that stops being traffic and starts
obstructing traffic is a stupid idea. A rolling party that, by its location, timing, and history is
all but guaranteed to obstruct traffic is a very stupid idea.

But, don't let me stop anyone from building ever-larger dinosaur costumes. I'm sure I'll find some
way to go on living .

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[Zoot Katz]

Sun, 06 Jul 2003 21:51:54 GMT, <[email protected]>, "Buck" <j u n k m a i
l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote:

>As it is, dressed in costumes and holding up everyone else, they don't do the rest of us cyclists
>any good. Cyclists are part of the fringe as it is. There is no need to make the gap even larger.

It's been said (by Tooker Gomberg, IIRC) that the radical element is needed so the rest of us aren't
ignored as the fringe.

Of all the nay sayers, how many have ever ridden any CM rides?
--
zk