Cro-Mo tubing.



Volnix

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2011
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Hi! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

I am thinking of buying a cro-mo tubed bike and had some questions about the stuff.

Ok, so the reason that I want a cro-mo bike is mainly the stuff that I read about it being very comfortable and also very fatigue-damage resistant. It will probably be a summer bike so I dont care about corrosion issues. I like the thin tubing looks of cro-mo bikes too but in contrast with aluminium bikes (which are all either 6xxx grade aluminium, some times hydroformed, or 7xxx grade aluminium, most of the times in straight tubes) Cro-mo tubes come in many grades. Like 4xx, 6xx, 8xx and even with branded tubes, (colombus, reynolds etc).

I have checked some bikes that I like and apparently, despite of all of them being built from cro-mo the price differences are huge!
So I had a question, does it really matter if the tubing is branded? For example I seen a bike that is built from reynolds 8xx cro-mo tubes and it costs about 800euros for just the frame! Whist another cro-mo bike that I checked and liked a lot its built from a 4xx series house brand cro-mo costs about half the price! I assume that the 4xx series one is less rigid but more comfortable whist the 8xx is less rigid (faster?) and less comfortable. Do you think that there is actually a built quality issue here or are the frames somewhat the same (in quality matters) except the grade of the steel?


Many thanks /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
 
Originally Posted by Volnix .

Hi! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

I am thinking of buying a cro-mo tubed bike and had some questions about the stuff.

Ok, so the reason that I want a cro-mo bike is mainly the stuff that I read about it being very comfortable and also very fatigue-damage resistant. It will probably be a summer bike so I dont care about corrosion issues. I like the thin tubing looks of cro-mo bikes too but in contrast with aluminium bikes (which are all either 6xxx grade aluminium, some times hydroformed, or 7xxx grade aluminium, most of the times in straight tubes) Cro-mo tubes come in many grades. Like 4xx, 6xx, 8xx and even with branded tubes, (colombus, reynolds etc).

I have checked some bikes that I like and apparently, despite of all of them being built from cro-mo the price differences are huge!
So I had a question, does it really matter if the tubing is branded? For example I seen a bike that is built from reynolds 8xx cro-mo tubes and it costs about 800euros for just the frame! Whist another cro-mo bike that I checked and liked a lot its built from a 4xx series house brand cro-mo costs about half the price! I assume that the 4xx series one is less rigid but more comfortable whist the 8xx is less rigid (faster?) and less comfortable. Do you think that there is actually a built quality issue here or are the frames somewhat the same (in quality matters) except the grade of the steel?


Many thanks /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
The numbers you're referring to are Reynolds cro-mo tubing names. Here's a Wikipedia page that specifies the steel alloy indicated on a given Reynolds tube: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_Cycle_Technology

What vspa said is true. However note that between brands price vs a given "quality" varies, of course. Certain brands have a bit of cachet associated with them, and with that cachet often comes relatively higher pricing. For the cost of some Euro steel frames, you can get a custom steel frame built by someone else. That's not something necessarily exclusive to Euro brands, either. For instance, in the US you'll pay a lot more for a Sachs or Speedvagen frame then you will for, say, a Strong, assuming they're all made from the same material. Also, just as there are different frame makers, there are also different brands of tubing: Reynolds, True Temper, Columbus, and etc.

Steel bikes are having a resurgence. Part of that is due to new steel alloys that allow frames to made that compete fairly well with carbon fiber and even better with titanium when it comes to weight. Part of it's due to growth in custom frame building. In the US, the North American Handmade Bicycle Show has, IMHO, given custom builders new life and greater exposure. The show is wildly popular.

An example of new steel tubing for bikes is stainless steel tubing. It negates the worry about steel potentially rusting (which is for the most part an unfounded worry if you take a modicum of care of your bike). Here's just one company that's making stainless steel frames (as well as Ti: http://fireflybicycles.com/ .

I've been considering a lot over the last few months what my next bike will be, and I'm continually flipping back and forth between Ti and steel. I suspect I'm going to have to win a lottery so that I can just get a few different flavors of each.
 
Originally Posted by vspa .

check out this steel hottie
http://www.bianchiusa.com/bikes/gran-fondo/vigorelli/

like with any other material the better the construction the higher the price,

Looks good! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Hmmm so you think that there is a construction issue there as well? Like what for example? Impurities on the metal or better welding for example? I havent seen any heat treatment variations on cro-mo like the t4 or t6 ones that are sometimes advertized in aluminium frames.
 
You're gonna get what you pay for.

Things beside tubing quality are also going to have an effect on comfort and bike handling, seat and head tube angles, chainstay and wheelbase length, and of course thickness of tubing. Your plain vanilla cro-mo 4130 has been used forever on bikes. Other steels, go through different heat treating/cooling processes also affecting ride quality. I have ridden a Reynolds 753 bike (which is really Magnese Molybdenum, not Chromium Molybdenum) that felt stiffer than a Columbus SL bike with thicker walled tubing (.7/.5 vs. .9/.6mm thickness)

I recently did extensive miles on a newer 2010 steel Masi, the Premio, a typical non branded 4130 which they may not make anymore. A nice substantial bike (22lbs with 105) that did ride very nicely and was quite comfy, but who's rear wheel almost always became airborne when I jumped in the sprint. The frame retailed for $600. I think the 2012 Masi steel is built with Reynolds and may sell for a bit more.

Cinelli and Colnago both make steel frames that sell for way more than 800 Euros, the Colnago is around $3000 for just the frame. They are both lighter than their cheaper counterparts and the build quality, noting the lug work and welds, is considerably better. There is also tubing even thinner than the 753, but to be honest I personally would stay away from those bikes. I knew someone with a lovely Bob Jackson 753 that took a very short fall standing still against a park bench and came out with a lovely ding. Something that would not have happened on a 531 bike or an Columbus SL or SP bike. I saw one of the newer super thin walled steel bikes come out of a bad accident in a race at Prospect Park that resembled a crumpled up piece of paper. But if 800 Euros is above your limit this will likely not be a problem.

Even if you don't care about corrosion, and if you get a frame and then build it up (as opposed to buying a factory assembly), do get the anti corrosion stuff applied to the inside. It's so cheap to get done it's stupid not to.

The Bianchi vspa pointed out is very bice. Also check out the Masi for another cheaper steel bike. The Masi is probaly made somewhere in Asia if that makes any diffirence, the Cinelli and Colnago are both hand made in Italy, thus the high price. Jamis makes a nice steel bike too I think on the cheaper side (the Eclipse). There are others.

Reynolds 853 tubing is going to be better (strength to weight ratio) than the basic 4130 and therefore more expensive. The new generation of light stainless steel bikes (Xcr) are going to be more expensive than many carbon frames.
Lugs or not, clean welds or not, higher strength to weight ratio (lighter), true racing heritage or not (today's Masi, I believe, has no affiliation to the company that built the beautiful Gran Criterium from Breaking Away). It all depends what you want.
 
Originally Posted by alienator .

For the cost of some Euro steel frames, you can get a custom steel frame built by someone else.

I've been considering a lot over the last few months what my next bike will be, and I'm continually flipping back and forth between Ti and steel. I suspect I'm going to have to win a lottery so that I can just get a few different flavors of each.
Back in the 80's, frame builders in the UK were a dime a dozen and $300 could get you a nice custom job, which at the time was still cheaper than most italian steel.

Lottery? Ya mean you don't have a spare $4000 laying around for a new steel Firefly.
 
Originally Posted by danfoz .

I recently did extensive miles on a newer 2010 steel Masi, the Premio, a typical non branded 4130 which they may not make anymore. A nice substantial bike (22lbs with 105) that did ride very nicely and was quite comfy, but who's rear wheel almost always became airborne when I jumped in the sprint. The frame retailed for $600. I think the 2012 Masi steel is built with Reynolds and may sell for a bit more.
In '92ish I had a custom Schwinn Paramount OS (one of the Waterford made pieces of gorgeousness). That frame had a less than smooth ride to it. It rode noticeably harsher (Not by orders of magnitude, and it couldn't be called unbearable. It was just less forgiving in ride comfort.) than the Moots Compact and Look 595 that followed it.



Even if you don't care about corrosion, and if you get a frame and then build it up (as opposed to buying a factory assembly), do get the anti corrosion stuff applied to the inside. It's so cheap to get done it's stupid not to.
Yup. Having peace of mind is a bonus. Weigle Frame Saver is the go-to corrosion inhibitor.
 
Originally Posted by danfoz .


Back in the 80's, frame builders in the UK were a dime a dozen and $300 could get you a nice custom job, which at the time was still cheaper than most italian steel.

Lottery? Ya mean you don't have a spare $4000 laying around for a new steel Firefly.
I'd like to have that money laying around.....in big piles...with half clothed women, hair a mess and lipstick smeared, passed out in said piles. Alas, those aren't the sort of piles I have. I'm hoping when I arrive in the future that I'll find a brush finished Firefly with polished letters. Whether it's Ti or Xcr, won't matter too much. Me dig gums subtle labeling such as what Firefly does with contrasting brushed and polished or bead blasted finishes. Their finished products make me think thoughts that are a lot more impure than the usual impure thoughts I have.
 
Hi /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

I was just looking at touring bikes actually and I also narrowed my search on bikes with disk brake fittings and -fortunately- nothing came up that costed more the 700euros or I would be deeply depressed... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

Basically one of these bikes is a reynolds tubed bike with an 8xx series tubing. I thought that the number had something to do with the strength of the material but it probably doesnt, but to be honest I dont mind the extra reynolds sticker on the frame. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

The other bike is a 4xxx series cro-mo that I dont know where is built but it seems like a very nice bike actually and it costs about half the price from the other one. Its also a deraileur driven bike whilst the other one only has fittings for an internal gear hub which I just cant repair anywhere near here. The complete bike its constructed with a rohloff hub and it costs thousands!

Both of these bikes I will probably have to order online so I cant get a test ride or anything like that.

So, you really think it would worth to pay 400euro more for the 8xx series reynolds instead of a 4xxx house brand cro-mo? If they were both at the same price I would probably get the one with the deraileur frame I think. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif
 
Originally Posted by alienator .


The numbers you're referring to are Reynolds cro-mo tubing names. Here's a Wikipedia page that specifies the steel alloy indicated on a given Reynolds tube: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_Cycle_Technology
re-check the link provided by Alienator, many answers for you there
 
Originally Posted by alienator .
Yup. Having peace of mind is a bonus. Weigle Frame Saver is the go-to corrosion inhibitor.


Hmmm I just checked that stuff and it looks real nasty! How does it work? Why dont they use it on tubes before manufacturing them if its that good?
 
Originally Posted by Volnix .

Hi /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

I was just looking at touring bikes actually and I also narrowed my search on bikes with disk brake fittings and -fortunately- nothing came up that costed more the 700euros or I would be deeply depressed... /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

Basically one of these bikes is a reynolds tubed bike with an 8xx series tubing. I thought that the number had something to do with the strength of the material but it probably doesnt, but to be honest I dont mind the extra reynolds sticker on the frame. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif

The other bike is a 4xxx series cro-mo that I dont know where is built but it seems like a very nice bike actually and it costs about half the price from the other one. Its also a deraileur driven bike whilst the other one only has fittings for an internal gear hub which I just cant repair anywhere near here. The complete bike its constructed with a rohloff hub and it costs thousands!

Both of these bikes I will probably have to order online so I cant get a test ride or anything like that.

So, you really think it would worth to pay 400euro more for the 8xx series reynolds instead of a 4xxx house brand cro-mo? If they were both at the same price I would probably get the one with the deraileur frame I think. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

Save your money. The 4xxx tubing should hold up nicely. As far as corrosion goes I have seen poorly cared for steel bikes made by the mass junk producers over the years sittin out in open fields for years on end that the frames are still rideable.
 
Originally Posted by Volnix .


Hmmm I just checked that stuff and it looks real nasty! How does it work? Why dont they use it on tubes before manufacturing them if its that good?

It's been the standard in bikes for a long time. I don't know why manufacturers don't use it. The only bike manufacturers that I know of that treat their tubes for corrosion resistance are manufacturers of magnesium frames. You'll have to ask the manufacturers whey they don't use a corrosion inhibitor.
 
Scapin do (or did?) use an anti-corrosion treatment on their steel frames, but I dunno if it was effective or just marketing fluff

" In order to prevent corrosion, the tubing is internally finished. A special anti-corrosion treatment called All Weather Proof (AWP), a triple process composed of zinc-nickel plating, phosphoric treatment and finally "black electrophoresis", is used to make the frames resistant to corrosion and rust, externally and internally."